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National Routeing Guide update

kieron

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A new easement was published yesterday. ATOC (or, rather, the Rail Delivery Group) have not published a summary of the update yet, though.
New dataset RJRG0449 published 13 September 2017

Easement added:

700742 (Local) To facilitate journeys to Pilning station on Saturdays from Bristol Temple Meads, this local easement will allow the journey to be valid via Severn Tunnel Junction
As before, Pilning is usually only served by eastbound trains (although this isn't replicated when engineering work closes the line). This means that the shortest route from Bristol Temple Meads to Pilning is usually via Severn Tunnel Junction.

There is already an easement (700695, which had a stray "This" removed from it yesterday) which allows this journey to be made via Newport, so the effect on ticket validity of this easement is likely to be limited.

That said, the nationalrail.co.uk planner doesn't seem to offer this journey with a change at Severn Tunnel Junction or Newport. There may still be work to do.
 
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Paul Kelly

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There may still be work to do.
Yes indeed; although that easement allows for the fact that the route via Severn Tunnel Junction is more than twice as long as the shortest route, it still needs an additional doubleback easement to validate the doubleback through Pilning.
 

kieron

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Some more changes to the routeing guide were published on Monday.
New Dataset RJRG0484 published 09 October 2017

Written on 12 October 2017.
New datasets 479; 480; 481 and 483 No changes to routeing guide data. Changes in 482 and 484
dataset 482 Added easement

700742: To facilitate journeys to Pilning station on Saturdays from Bristol Temple Meads, this local easement will allow the journey to be valid via Severn Tunnel Junction
This was added to the routeing guide on 13/9. As before, (a) no easement is needed as this is normally the shortest route which can be used by scheduled passenger services in this direction, and (b) nationalrail.co.uk (for one) does not currently list this route as being valid with a single ticket.

Monday's changes are:
Changes made in RJRG0484

Review of map permissions from the Barnetby (BTB) and Habrough (HAB) routeing points to routeing points in Greater Manchester region resulted in the following changes

New sequences created

Accrington (ACR) and Barnetby (BTB) - added sequence 'DW'
Accrington (ACR) and Habrough (HAB) - added sequence 'DW'
These previously only had mapped routes using map DP (via Burnley, Hebden Bridge and Wakefield).
They now have mapped routes which go via Darwen, Manchester and Sheffield, although not ones via Rochdale.
Barnetby (BTB) and Chinley (CLY) - added sequence 'YL'
Barnetby (BTB) and Chinley (CLY) - removed sequence 'HO'
Barnetby (BTB) and Hazel Grove (HAZ) - added sequence 'YL'
Barnetby (BTB) and Hazel Grove (HAZ) - removed sequence 'HO'
Barnetby (BTB) and Stockport (SPT) - added sequence 'YL'
Barnetby (BTB) and Stockport (SPT) - removed sequence 'HO'
Chinley (CLY) and Habrough (HAB) - added sequence 'YL'
Chinley (CLY) and Habrough (HAB) - removed sequence 'HO'
Habrough (HAB) and Hazel Grove (HAZ) - added sequence 'YL'
Habrough (HAB) and Hazel Grove (HAZ) - removed sequence 'HO'
Habrough (HAB) and Stockport (SPT) - added sequence 'YL'
Habrough (HAB) and Stockport (SPT) - removed sequence 'HO'
No effect.
Barnetby (BTB) and Guide Bridge (GUI) - added sequence 'HV'
Barnetby (BTB) and Guide Bridge (GUI) - removed sequence 'HO'
Guide Bridge (GUI) and Habrough (HAB) - added sequence 'HV'
Guide Bridge (GUI) and Habrough (HAB) - removed sequence 'HO'
These now have mapped routes via Manchester.
Barnetby (BTB) and Stalybridge (SYB) - added sequence 'YL+HV+GM'
Barnetby (BTB) and Stalybridge (SYB) - removed sequence 'DO+YN'
Barnetby (BTB) and Stalybridge (SYB) - removed sequence 'SH+MS'
Barnetby (BTB) and Stalybridge (SYB) - removed sequence 'SH+MS+MR'
Barnetby (BTB) and Stalybridge (SYB) - removed sequence 'WK'
Barnetby (BTB) and Stalybridge (SYB) - removed sequence 'WK+WY'
Habrough (HAB) and Stalybridge (SYB) - added sequence 'YL+HV+GM'
Habrough (HAB) and Stalybridge (SYB) - removed sequence 'DO+YN'
Habrough (HAB) and Stalybridge (SYB) - removed sequence 'SH+MS'
Habrough (HAB) and Stalybridge (SYB) - removed sequence 'SH+MS+MR'
Habrough (HAB) and Stalybridge (SYB) - removed sequence 'WK'
Habrough (HAB) and Stalybridge (SYB) - removed sequence 'WK+WY'
These journeys no longer have mapped routes via Huddersfield or via Brigg.
They now have mapped routes via both Sheffield and Doncaster.
Barnetby (BTB) and WIGAN GROUP (G34) - added sequence 'DW+NC'
Barnetby (BTB) and WIGAN GROUP (G34) - added sequence 'DW+NN'
Barnetby (BTB) and WIGAN GROUP (G34) - removed sequence 'DW+XW'
This journey no longer has mapped routes via Preston.
It now has mapped routes:
via Eccles (using trains which are non-stop between Manchester and Wigan); and
routes via Atherton which avoid Bolton.
Deletions

Blackburn (BBN) and Barnetby (BTB) - removed sequence 'DB'
Blackburn (BBN) and Barnetby (BTB) - removed sequence 'MH+DW'
Blackburn (BBN) and Habrough (HAB) - removed sequence 'DB'
Blackburn (BBN) and Habrough (HAB) - removed sequence 'MH+DW'
These journey no longer have mapped routes:
via Stalybridge;
via Cheadle Hulme; or
via both Manchester and Hebden Bridge.
For engineering works easement(s) added

700743: Due to a very late notice engineering possession. Services will not operate into London Paddington on the 14 and 15 October 2017. For those services diverted and terminating at Oxford for onward travel by Chiltern Trains services to London Marylebone, this map easement will create temporary permitted routes via High Wycombe, and will operate in both directions
My reading of this is that you can go from somewhere to London via Oxford and High Wycombe, but only if you use a train which is diverted, which terminates at Oxford or which (due to the "both directions" term) starts there.

That seems to be everything apart from a few trains which terminate at Didcot Parkway but are normally scheduled to call there anyway. I don't know if you're expected to know which these are.
700744: Due to engineering works between 27 December 2017 and 02 January 2018, there will be no direct services between London Euston and Wolverhampton. This map easement will create temporary permitted routes via Stafford, and will operate in both directions.
There are "via Stafford" tickets between London and Wolverhampton, for which this would be permitted anyway. There are also "any permitted", "via High Wycombe", "via Northampton", "London Midland Only" and "Virgin West Coast" tickets, as well as a range of advance tickets. I don't think there are normally permitted routes for any of these via Stafford, and easement 700131 explicitly prohibits the route with "any permitted" tickets. Perhaps this easement overrides this.
 

kieron

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A few more changes were published yesterday (Wednesday). No summary has been uploaded to the Rail Delivery Group web site yet.

A link between Lincoln and Spalding has been added to the maps AA, AD, AH, AL, AT, AY, EC, EE, ER, GU, HU, KG, LN, TE and TY.​

I assume this is because engineering works are planned to close the line through Grantham. The diverted trains don't go through Sleaford station, and that's the only place which counts for the routeing point, so this cuts off the corner.

It covers every map which includes Spalding except for KY (used, for instance, for York-Peterborough). It doesn't cover ED (used for Chinley-Peterborough via Worksop), which includes the normal route between Retford and Peterborough, but not the one via Spalding.

In addition to this, the following negative easement has been removed.

700471 (Circuitous Route) Customers travelling from High Wycombe, Beaconsfield, Seer Green, Gerrards Cross, Denham Golf Club, Denham, West Ruislip, South Ruislip, Northolt Park, Sudbury Hill, Sudbury & Harrow Road and Wembley Stadium to Birmingham New Street, Birmingham Snow Hill or Birmingham Moor Street in possession of tickets routed "via London" may not travel via Princes Risborough. This easement applies in both directions.​

I can't think why this easement was created (if you're going via London anyway, isn't the Chiltern line between London and Birmingham as good as any other?), but it's gone now.
 

kieron

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Some more changes were published yesterday.

New dataset 0486 published 02/11/2017
Comparing RJRG0486 to RJRG0485

Review of Map sequences between Lincolnshire and South Wales have resulted in these changes

Additions
Barnetby (BTB) and Cardiff Central (CDF) - added sequence 'WH'
Barnetby (BTB) and Newport S.wales (NWP) - added sequence 'WH'
Barnetby (BTB) and Pontypridd (PPD) - added sequence 'WH'
Barnetby (BTB) and SWANSEA GROUP (G38) - added sequence 'WH'
Bridgend (BGN) and Barnetby (BTB) - added sequence 'WH'
Bridgend (BGN) and Habrough (HAB) - added sequence 'WH'
Cardiff Central (CDF) and Habrough (HAB) - added sequence 'WH'
Habrough (HAB) and Newport S.wales (NWP) - added sequence 'WH'
Habrough (HAB) and Pontypridd (PPD) - added sequence 'WH'
SWANSEA GROUP (G38) and Habrough (HAB) - added sequence 'WH'

Deletions
Barnetby (BTB) and Cardiff Central (CDF) - removed sequence 'HO+CY'
Barnetby (BTB) and Newport S.wales (NWP) - removed sequence 'HO+CY'
Barnetby (BTB) and Pontypridd (PPD) - removed sequence 'HO+CY'
Barnetby (BTB) and SWANSEA GROUP (G38) - removed sequence 'HO+CY'
Bridgend (BGN) and Barnetby (BTB) - removed sequence 'CY+HO'
Bridgend (BGN) and Habrough (HAB) - removed sequence 'CY+HO'
Cardiff Central (CDF) and Habrough (HAB) - removed sequence 'CY+HO'
Habrough (HAB) and Newport S.wales (NWP) - removed sequence 'HO+CY'
Habrough (HAB) and Pontypridd (PPD) - removed sequence 'HO+CY'
SWANSEA GROUP (G38) and Habrough (HAB) - removed sequence 'CY+HO'
These journeys no longer have mapped routes via Leeds or via Wakefield.
The only mapped routes are now via Sheffield or via Nottingham.

For engineering works, new link added to map to provide links between Spalding
and Lincoln avoiding Sleaford

Map KY - LONDON KINGS X TO YORK changed (1 added/ 0 removed links)
As with the other maps, this enables trains which use the line through Spalding but don't go through Sleaford to be on a mapped route, but does nothing when they're not running.

For engineering works the following dated easement has been added

700745: Due to engineering works on the Great Western mainline over the weekends of the 25/26 November and 02/03 December 2017. tickets priced on route (00810) NOT VIA READING may travel via Reading. This Fare Route easement applies in both directions
No trains are running between Didcot and Swindon then (and no buses either for the second weekend, apparently). This change may not have been implemented everywhere yet, as a journey I tried on nationalrail.co.uk only offered the normal "not London" ticket for a route via Reading.

To ensure journey planners do not offer invalid local journey legs when using a bus connection between Yeovil Junction and Yeovil Pen Mill, this new circuitous route negative easement has been added.

700746: Journeys to Yeovil Pen Mill priced on (00000) ANY PERMITTED from or via Bristol Temple Meads, are not valid via Taunton; Exeter St Davids, Yeovil Junction and bus connections between Yeovil Junction and Yeovil Pen Mill. This circuitous route easement applies in both directions.
For what it's worth, this also seems to be an easement which hasn't yet been implemented on nationalrail.co.uk yet (which can't actually offer a ticket using an "invalid local journey leg", under the terms of the Conditions of Travel).
 

yorkie

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700746: Journeys to Yeovil Pen Mill priced on (00000) ANY PERMITTED from or via Bristol Temple Meads, are not valid via Taunton; Exeter St Davids, Yeovil Junction and bus connections between Yeovil Junction and Yeovil Pen Mill. This circuitous route easement applies in both directions.
For what it's worth, this also seems to be an easement which hasn't yet been implemented on nationalrail.co.uk yet...
Some websites still sell this, but act fast if you want it ;)

Screenshot from traingenius.com
 

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kieron

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Some more easements were published on Wednesday.
New data set 487 published 08/11/2017

Comparing revision RJRG0487 to RJRG0486

Review of Cheltenham and Gloucester permissions via Birmingham to Banbury (G58) and Oxford

Added_sequences

BANBURY GROUP (G58) and Gloucester (GCR) - added sequence 'RB+HP'
BANBURY GROUP (G58) and Gloucester (GCR) - added sequence 'RB+LH'

Removed_sequences

BANBURY GROUP (G58) and Gloucester (GCR) - removed sequence 'BB+BL'
BANBURY GROUP (G58) and Gloucester (GCR) - removed sequence 'BB+LH'
This journey no longer has mapped routes via Cheltenham, except for some which go through Worcester.

Cheltenham Spa (CNM) and BANBURY GROUP (G58) - added sequence 'LH+RB
This now has mapped routes via Oxford.

Cheltenham Spa (CNM) and Oxford (OXF) - added sequence 'HP+RB'
Cheltenham Spa (CNM) and Oxford (OXF) - added sequence 'PB+XS'
Cheltenham Spa (CNM) and Oxford (OXF) - removed sequence 'BL+SM'
This now has mapped routes via Banbury.

A review of Ford (G61) permissions to Bath Spa to include routes via Salisbury and Fratton

Added

Bath Spa (BTH) and FORD GROUP (G61) - added sequence 'LA+WX+DK'
Bath Spa (BTH) and FORD GROUP (G61) - added sequence 'SN'

Removed

Bath Spa (BTH) and FORD GROUP (G61) - removed sequence 'BL+WX+LB'
Bath Spa (BTH) and FORD GROUP (G61) - removed sequence 'BL+WX+SC'
Bath Spa (BTH) and FORD GROUP (G61) - removed sequence 'LA+WX+LB'
This journey no longer has mapped routes:
via Didcot and Earlsfield;
via Reading, New Cross Gate and Herne Hill;
via Reading, New Cross Gate and Peckham Rye;
ones via Streatham which do not go via London; or
ones via Sutton which do not go via London.
It now has mapped routes:
via Havant;
via London and Guildford; and
via Newbury and Earlsfield.

To provide permissions for tickets priced Not via London the following additional sequences added

Crystal Palace (CYP) and PORTSMOUTH GROUP (G23) - added sequence 'SC+HE'
Crystal Palace (CYP) and PORTSMOUTH GROUP (G23) - added sequence 'VH+EF+HE'
Crystal Palace (CYP) and PORTSMOUTH GROUP (G23) - added sequence 'VH+SW'
This journey now has mapped routes which do not go via London. These include routes via Epsom, via Surbiton and via Chertsey.
It also adds mapped routes via London which go:
via Epsom;
via Streatham, Tulse Hill, Earlsfield and Raynes Park; and
ones via Streatham, Tulse Hill and Barnes which do not go through Wimbledon.

The shortest route is via West Croydon and Guildford, and is now mapped on SC+HE.

2 map(s) changed to accomodate engineering diversions when services travel between Sevenoaks and Swanley without passing through the Otford Routeing Group. An acdditional routeing link has been added to the maps below

Map RA - LONDON TO RAMSGATE VIA ASHFORD changed (1 added/ 0 removed links)
Map SV - LOCAL SOUTH EASTERN ROUTES VIA SEVENOAKS changed (1 added/ 0 removed
links)
Ticket sites only treat a train as passing through the Otford routeing group if it stops at Otford or Kemsing, the stations in the group. Usually, every train which goes via Otford stops there, meaning that this isn't a problem.

On 19/11, however, the line through Orpington is closed. Trains which would normally go that way are diverted via Otford (and so through the Otford Routeing Point), but without calling anywhere between Chislehurst and Sevenoaks (and so appear to ticket sites as if they don't go through the Otford Routeing Point). Hence these changes.

These maps do nothing for someone hoping to travel from Chislehurst to Edenbridge, as the diverted trains don't pass through any of the routeing points associated with Chislehurst, and the shortest route remains via Orpington.
 

kieron

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Some more changes were published yesterday.
Dataset 0488 published 15 November 2017

Comparing revision RJRG0488 to RJRG0487

When timetable data does not include passing times for all members of the Warwick routeing group, journey planners may not offer journeys including services travelling through Leamington Spa to/from Birmingham. The following changes to map sequences and maps are to correct this characteristic. By including a direct routeing link between Leamington Spa routeing point and Tysley routeing point

Added map sequence

Cheltenham Spa (CNM) and Oxford (OXF) - added sequence 'PB+XB'

Removed map sequence

Cheltenham Spa (CNM) and Oxford (OXF) - removed sequence 'PB+XS'
The connection between the description above and the map sequence change isn't entirely clear to me.
This journey no longer has any mapped routes via Nuneaton, anyway.

1 map(s) changed
Map XS - ROUTES VIA READING TO PORTSMOUTH AND SOUTH COAST changed (1 added/ 0 removed links)
XS includes a route between Leamington and Tyseley via Warwick Group, but the published version of the map hasn't changed.

To remove circuitous routes priced on (00000) ANY PERMITTED tickets on the Great Eastern mainline where alternative routeings priced on (00003) VIA STRATFORD/LONDON exist - new easemenrs published

700747: Customers from Manningtree or travelling via Manningtree to Barking, Dagenham Dock, Rainham (Essex) or Purfleet on tickets routed (00000) ANY PERMITTED may not travel via Stratford (London), London Liverpool Street or London Fenchurch Street. This circuitous route easement applies in both directions.

700748: Customers from Manningtree or travelling via Manningtree to Limehouse or West Ham on tickets routed (00000) ANY PERMITTED may not travel via London Liverpool Street or London Fenchurch Street. This circuitous route easement applies in both directions.

I have been asked not to say anything about these easements.

For Christmas engineering works affecting London Paddington. New dated easements published.

700749: During engineering works between 24 - 30 December 2017 affecting journeys into London Paddington. Tickets from Worcester, Evesham and stations on the route to Oxford may travel to London Marylebone via Oxford and Princes Risborough. This map easement applies in both directions.

700750: During engineering works affecting journeys into London Paddington between 24 - 30 December 2017. Journeys on tickets routed (00000) ANY PERMITTED; (00799) LONDON EVESHAM; (00803) EVESHAM STROUD; (00805) VIA EVESHAM; (00807) VIA STROUD will be permitted to travel via Birmingham New Street to London Euston and London Marylebone. This positive Fare Route easement applies in both directions.

700751: During engineering works that will effect journeys to London Paddington 24 - 30 December 2017. Tickets routed (00000) ANY PERMITTED; (00799 LONDON EVESHAM; (00803) EVESHAM STROUD; (00805) VIA EVESHAM; (00807) VIA STROUD) will be valid for travel via Birmingham New Street to London Euston and London Marylebone. This positive map easement will apply in both directions.
The number of trains to/from London Paddington will be reduced during this period, so these are more or less the usual "divert away from Paddington" easements.
 
Last edited:

RJ

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To remove circuitous routes priced on (00000) ANY PERMITTED tickets on the Great Eastern mainline where alternative routeings priced on (00003) VIA STRATFORD/LONDON exist - new easemenrs published

700747: Customers from Manningtree or travelling via Manningtree to Barking, Dagenham Dock, Rainham (Essex) or Purfleet on tickets routed (00000) ANY PERMITTED may not travel via Stratford (London), London Liverpool Street or London Fenchurch Street. This circuitous route easement applies in both directions.

700748: Customers from Manningtree or travelling via Manningtree to Limehouse or West Ham on tickets routed (00000) ANY PERMITTED may not travel via London Liverpool Street or London Fenchurch Street. This circuitous route easement applies in both directions.

I have been asked not to say anything about these easements.

Interesting comment. There's a significant loophole in this area that allows for large cost savings. I stopped using it since my leisure trips down the GEML ended last summer but looks like the powers that be are finally doing something about it!
 

kieron

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Some more changes were published on Wednesday.
New data set 489 published 22 November 2017

Comparing revision RJRG0489 to RJG0488

Review of maps used between Loughborough and Norwich, to include via Nottingham map permissions. In addition rationalisation of maps used for permissions between locations in Leicestershire and Cambridgeshire/Norfolk has led to changes to maps used. Including removing permissions from Leicester via Loughborough toward Peterborough.
I suspect this is largely intended for journey planners, as Peterborough-Loughborough-Leicester either means going through Nottingham or doubling back through Barrow-upon-Soar. Anyway, the sequence changes are:

Sequences added

Cambridge (CBG) and Leicester (LEI) - added sequence 'AA+BP'
Ely (ELY) and Leicester (LEI) - added sequence 'AA+BP'
Ely (ELY) and Loughborough (Leics) (LBO) - added sequence 'AB'
Ely (ELY) and Peterborough. (PBO) - added sequence 'AB'
Leicester (LEI) and Norwich (NRW) - added sequence 'BP+AA'
Norwich (NRW) and Peterborough. (PBO) - added sequence 'AB'

Sequences removed

Cambridge (CBG) and Leicester (LEI) - removed sequence 'AB'
Ely (ELY) and Leicester (LEI) - removed sequence 'AB'
Ely (ELY) and Loughborough (Leics) (LBO) - removed sequence 'AC'
Ely (ELY) and Peterborough. (PBO) - removed sequence 'AP'
Leicester (LEI) and Norwich (NRW) - removed sequence 'AB'
Norwich (NRW) and Peterborough. (PBO) - removed sequence 'AP'
No effect.

Loughborough (Leics) (LBO) and Norwich (NRW) - added sequence 'PN+AM'
This now has mapped routes via Nottingham.

To allow journeys from Wigan to Hellifield via Leeds

Map sequence added

WIGAN GROUP (G34) and HELLIFIELD GROUP (G53) - added sequence 'NN+MN+XY'
This adds mapped routes via Leeds, and ones via Bradford.

To prevent circuitous routes via Liverpool and Manchester. The following negative easement has been published
Added 700752: Customer travelling from Formby, Freshfield, Ainsdale, Hillside, Birkdale, Southport, Meols Cop, Bescar Lane and New Lane to Bolton, Westhoughton, Hall I'th Wood, Bromley Cross, Moses Gate, Farnworth, Kearsley, Lostock, Horwich Parkway and Blackrod, on tickets priced (00000) Any Permitted may not travel via Sandhills and Liverpool or Manchester. This circuitous route easement applies in both directions.
I wonder whether that's meant to be read as "Sandhills and Manchester or Sandhills and Liverpool" or "Manchester or Sandhills and Liverpool".

The choice of station seems a bit arbitrary (stations Formby-Southport-New Lane to Blackrod-Bolton-Kearsley and Bromley Cross-Bolton-Westhoughton), but it's the Q240-Q231 flow, for which all of the tickets are "Any Permitted" ones. This easement is probably unnecessary for Westhoughton, as both it and the first group of stations are all associated with Wigan.

From a brief look, the trains via Wigan are usually a bit faster (although I'd hope this would be relaxed for any engineering work), although you may lose the first and/or last train of the day from this.
To prevent travel on (00000) ANY PERMITED routeings via London and Stratford (London) on flows where priced flows exist to permit travel via London - routed (00003) LONDON/STRATFORD - the following negative easement has been published.
Added 700753: Journeys from or via (that originate beyond) Shenfield routed (00000) ANY PERMITTED to Brentwood, Harold Wood, Gidea Park, Romford, Chadwell Heath, Goodmayes, Seven Kings, Ilford, Manor Park, Forest Gate and Maryland may not travel via Statford (London) or London Liverpool Street. This circuitous route easement applies in both directions
More of these (those are all of the stations on the line between Shenfield and Stratford, if you're wondering). As it happens, I don't think any of the "via Stratford/London" tickets are regulated.
 

kieron

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Some more changes were published yesterday.
New data set 490 published 29/11/17

Comparing revision RJRG0490 to original RJRG0489

To add routes via Stoke on Trent (and subsequently removed circuitous routes from Stoke on Trent following the additions), the following changes have been made

Map sequences added

Crewe (CRE) and BIRMINGHAM GROUP (G02) - added sequence 'TV+BJ'

Map sequences removed

Crewe (CRE) and BIRMINGHAM GROUP (G02) - removed sequence 'BJ'
Crewe (CRE) and BIRMINGHAM GROUP (G02) - removed sequence 'NJ+BP'
This journey no longer has mapped routes via Nuneaton.
It now has mapped routes via Stoke-on-Trent.

Crewe (CRE) and SMETHWICK GROUP (G63) - added sequence 'TV+NJ'
Crewe (CRE) and WALSALL GROUP (G59) - added sequence 'TV+BJ'
These journeys now have mapped routes via Stoke-on-Trent.

Crewe (CRE) and Tyseley (TYS) - added sequence 'TV+BJ+BI'
Crewe (CRE) and Tyseley (TYS) - removed sequence 'RJ'
This journey no longer has mapped routes via Coventry or via Nuneaton.

Grantham (GRA) and Preston (Lancs) (PRE) - added sequence 'AN+NB+DW'
This journey now has mapped routes via Nottingham.

Peterborough. (PBO) and Preston (Lancs) (PRE) - added sequence 'AH+DW+KM'
Peterborough. (PBO) and Preston (Lancs) (PRE) - removed sequence 'AC+KM'
Peterborough. (PBO) and Preston (Lancs) (PRE) - removed sequence 'AM+KW'
Peterborough. (PBO) and Preston (Lancs) (PRE) - removed sequence 'AS+KM'
Peterborough. (PBO) and Preston (Lancs) (PRE) - removed sequence 'EC+DP+KM'
Peterborough. (PBO) and Preston (Lancs) (PRE) - removed sequence 'EC+DP+KW'
Peterborough. (PBO) and Preston (Lancs) (PRE) - removed sequence 'EC+MN+KM'
Peterborough. (PBO) and Preston (Lancs) (PRE) - removed sequence 'EC+MN+KW'
Peterborough. (PBO) and Preston (Lancs) (PRE) - removed sequence 'EC+NP'
Peterborough. (PBO) and Preston (Lancs) (PRE) - removed sequence 'EE+DW'
Peterborough. (PBO) and Preston (Lancs) (PRE) - removed sequence 'EE+DW+KW'
This journey no longer has mapped routes:
via York;
via Selby;
via Barnsley;
via both Blackburn and Bolton;
via both Sheffield and Warrington;
via both Stalybridge and Eccles; and
via both Todmorden and Eccles.
It now has mapped routes via both Meadowhall and Eccles.

Stoke On Trent (SOT) and Tyseley (TYS) - added sequence 'TL+BJ+BI'
Stoke On Trent (SOT) and Tyseley (TYS) - removed sequence 'BV+BI'
This journey no longer has mapped routes via Crewe.
It now has mapped routes which use the line between Stoke and Rugeley which avoids Stafford.

WALSALL GROUP (G59) and Stoke On Trent (SOT) - added sequence 'BJ+TL'
WALSALL GROUP (G59) and Stoke On Trent (SOT) - removed sequence 'BV'
This journey no longer has mapped routes via Crewe.
It now has mapped routes:
via Nuneaton; and
ones which use the line between Stoke and Rugeley which avoids Stafford.

To remove circuitous routes via York the following changes have been made

Map sequences added

Bolton (BON) and Peterborough. (PBO) - added sequence 'BS+BP

Map sequences removed

Bolton (BON) and Peterborough. (PBO) - removed sequence 'BM+BP'
Bolton (BON) and Peterborough. (PBO) - removed sequence 'MN+AL'
Bolton (BON) and Peterborough. (PBO) - removed sequence 'MN+AY'
This journey no longer has mapped routes:
via Selby; or
via York.
It now has mapped routes:
via Birchwood; and
via Wigan.

Accrington (ACR) and Peterborough. (PBO) - removed sequence 'KM+MN+ER'
Accrington (ACR) and Peterborough. (PBO) - removed sequence 'KM+MN+KY'
Accrington (ACR) and Peterborough. (PBO) - removed sequence 'NP+KY'
This journey no longer has mapped routes:
via Selby;
via Stalybridge;
via York; or
via both Manchester and Todmorden.

Blackburn (BBN) and Peterborough. (PBO) - removed sequence 'KM+MN+ER'
Blackburn (BBN) and Peterborough. (PBO) - removed sequence 'KM+MN+KY'
Blackburn (BBN) and Peterborough. (PBO) - removed sequence 'KW+MN+ER'
Blackburn (BBN) and Peterborough. (PBO) - removed sequence 'KW+MN+KY'
Blackburn (BBN) and Peterborough. (PBO) - removed sequence 'NP+EC'
Blackburn (BBN) and Peterborough. (PBO) - removed sequence 'NP+KY'
This journey no longer has mapped routes:
via Selby;
via York;
via both Eccles and Stalybridge;
via both Eccles and Todmorden;
via both Manchester and the direct line between Pontefract Monkhill and Doncaster;
ones via Huddersfield which do not go via Wakefield; or
ones via Manchester and Pontefract which do not go through Wakefield.

Kirkham And Wesham (KKM) and Peterborough. (PBO) - removed sequence 'KM+DP+EC'
Kirkham And Wesham (KKM) and Peterborough. (PBO) - removed sequence 'KM+MN+EC'
Kirkham And Wesham (KKM) and Peterborough. (PBO) - removed sequence 'KW+DP+EC'
Kirkham And Wesham (KKM) and Peterborough. (PBO) - removed sequence 'KW+MN+EC'
Kirkham And Wesham (KKM) and Peterborough. (PBO) - removed sequence 'NP+EC'
This journey no longer has mapped routes:
via Accrington;
via Selby;
via York;
via both Eccles and Stalybridge; or
via both Eccles and Todmorden.

Kirkham And Wesham (KKM) and Retford (RET) - removed sequence 'NP+NS'
Preston (Lancs) (PRE) and Retford (RET) - removed sequence 'NP+NS'
These journeys no longer have mapped routes:
via Selby; or
via York.

NEWARK GROUP (G47) and Preston (Lancs) (PRE) - removed sequence 'NH+DW+KW'
NEWARK GROUP (G47) and Preston (Lancs) (PRE) - removed sequence 'NS+NP'
This journey no longer has mapped routes:
via Selby;
via Warrington; or
via York.
 

lyndhurst25

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1,406
New data set 490 published 29/11/17

Kirkham And Wesham (KKM) and Peterborough. (PBO) - removed sequence 'KM+DP+EC'
Kirkham And Wesham (KKM) and Peterborough. (PBO) - removed sequence 'KM+MN+EC'
Kirkham And Wesham (KKM) and Peterborough. (PBO) - removed sequence 'KW+DP+EC'
Kirkham And Wesham (KKM) and Peterborough. (PBO) - removed sequence 'KW+MN+EC'
Kirkham And Wesham (KKM) and Peterborough. (PBO) - removed sequence 'NP+EC'
This journey no longer has mapped routes:
via Accrington;

Really? I'd have thought that was a perfectly sensible route to take.
 

yorkie

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It is sensible to go via York, and it will often be a step-free interchange with just one change of trains.

Is anyone asking questions of the DfT about this change? If not, they should be!
 

Bletchleyite

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It is sensible to go via York, and it will often be a step-free interchange with just one change of trains.

So is via Manchester - arrival and departure at platform 13 of Picc and can't be anything else (other than across to 14 on the rare occasion they end up swapped, which I've seen once ever).
 

ashworth

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Is it? Strikes me as a bit far north. To me the obvious one would be via Manchester and the Liverpool-Norwich train.

Isn’t changing at Leeds just as obvious without forcing more people onto the already crowded Liverpool-Norwich trains.
 

sheff1

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Sheffield
Grantham (GRA) and Preston (Lancs) (PRE)
This journey no longer has mapped routes:

via both Sheffield and Warrington.

Journeys from Sheffield and beyond to Preston and beyond have 'always' been valid via Warrington. The walk across Warrington is not for the fainthearted, but can sometimes throw up quicker options than going via Manchester.
 

kieron

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Connah's Quay
Really? I'd have thought that was a perfectly sensible route to take.
Routes from Kirkham to anywhere don't matter too much for anyone travelling now. The line's shut, so ticket sites look at routes from Preston anyway.

If I look at a date in February (when trains are scheduled to run to Blackpool Soutn again), the daytime routes NRE offers are with a change at Preston and Leeds, with a change at Preston, Manchester and Doncaster, or with a change at Preston and Birmingham. Only the last of these appears on one of the Kirkham-Peterborough map combinations.

Thinking of Blackpool, it would be handy to have an easement to allow tickets to/from North and South to be used interchangeably, as the fastest route to Preston will switch from one to the other a couple of times in the next few months, which would leave some of the people who use a return over more than one day having to choose between an unnecessarily long journey in one direction, or buying an extra Blackpool-Kirkham ticket.
 

323235

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Location
North East Cheshire
I never have a problem using Blackpool South tickets to/from North and vice versa - staff are absolutely fine with it, including on Blackpool North barriers as they are usually the same price and it is my understanding there is a local easement / instruction to allow it.
 

IanXC

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18 Dec 2009
Messages
6,331
I never have a problem using Blackpool South tickets to/from North and vice versa - staff are absolutely fine with it, including on Blackpool North barriers as they are usually the same price and it is my understanding there is a local easement / instruction to allow it.

Given that there is now principally one operator on the Blackpool lines its hard to see much in the way of reasons not to allow it. I'm not sure that a Blackpool South ticket on a Virgin service would be a runner tho!
 

Starmill

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I think the problem is that while almost all tickets to places not on the Fylde lines are the same price from Blackpool North and Blackpool South, the prices of tickets to Preston are different.

From Blackpool North:
SDR £8.70
CDR £7.30

From Blackpool South:
SDR £8.00
CDR £6.80

So if they were all changed to 'Blackpool Stations' that would represent an increase for users of the South Fylde line, but then they may think it broadly worth it? The alternative solution is to formalise the arrangement whereby Blackpool North tickets are accepted at Blackpool South - which I understand is the current 'local instruction' that 323235 has heard of / experienced. I have never been refused a Blackpool North ticket on the train to Blackpool South, and if I weren't sure which I might want to go to or return from, I would always buy the ticket to North. It would be possible to re-price all tickets to Blackpool North as 'Blackpool North/South' and keep the cheaper ones as 'Blackpool South'. However, all of this would require someone at Northern with time, thought and possibly a little dedication to making it work, which I regrettably do not really sense at present. There are also liklely to be far higher priorities for such a person's time. Anyway back to routeing

Is it? Strikes me as a bit far north. To me the obvious one would be via Manchester and the Liverpool-Norwich train.

There has been a big crusade to remove routes between the southern ECML and North West England that go via West Yorkshire recently. Quite why someone thinks this is not acceptable, I have no idea. The EMT service is usually considerably slower than changing at York or Leeds - it also has far less capacity. The most regressive in my view was Manchester to Newark, where going via Leeds does not undercut any fares and is often quicker. It's still a reasonable route, and when I've had that ticket I've been granted permission to travel via Leeds, and yet someone thinks I'm not allowed to and should use the very very slow service to Nottingham and then Newark Castle.
 
Last edited:

Solent&Wessex

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The most regressive in my view was Manchester to Newark, where going via Leeds does not undercut any fares and is often quicker. It's still a reasonable route, and when I've had that ticket I've been granted permission to travel via Leeds, and yet someone thinks I'm not allowed to and should use the very very slow service to Nottingham and then Newark Castle.

Not entirely true. According to BR fares the current fares are MAN - NNG SOS = £34.80. LDS - NNG SOS = £48.50, So the Manchester to Newark fare undercuts the Leeds to Newark fare by quite a bit. The same is true of Retford. The correct solution would probably to offer tickets via either route at different prices rather than restrict the opportunities that are available.
 

Starmill

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For the small number of affected ticket types it would not exactly have been difficult to change the route to Chesterfield and create an Any Permitted ticket priced at the higher level. Sadly it seems nobody is really interested in actual solutions.
 

yorkie

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Not entirely true. According to BR fares the current fares are MAN - NNG SOS = £34.80. LDS - NNG SOS = £48.50, So the Manchester to Newark fare undercuts the Leeds to Newark fare by quite a bit. The same is true of Retford. The correct solution would probably to offer tickets via either route at different prices rather than restrict the opportunities that are available.
There is very little in the Anytime Returns (SORs) but most people are going to be getting an Off Peak Return (SVR), which are £39.90 for Leeds to Newark, and £44.80 for Manchester to Newark.

But going back to the Anytime Singles (SOS), what matters is not the current fares, but the fares as they were in 1996.

Manchester - Newark SOS in 1996 (NFM64): £16.10
Leeds - Newark SOS in 1996 (NFM64): £14.50

Under BR's rules, Manchester to Newark was valid via Leeds. The route is therefore a regulated/protected route as it was permitted at privatisation.

So RDG need DfT's permission to remove it.

Has anyone asked DfT if they have given permission? If not, perhaps someone would like to (here is the form). If permission was not granted, it would be an illegal change.

My suspicion is that RDG removed it on a whim, without permission, without thought, and illegally.

One company increasing an unregulated fare by a huge margin does not invalidate any fare for a longer journey that is valid by a route that includes the shorter journey which has been artificially inflated in price. The sooner RDG and certain TOCs get to grips with that very basic concept, the better!

Is there anyone who can bring them to account?
 
Last edited:

Solent&Wessex

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For the small number of affected ticket types it would not exactly have been difficult to change the route to Chesterfield and create an Any Permitted ticket priced at the higher level. Sadly it seems nobody is really interested in actual solutions.

Which is exactly what should have happened in this, and many other similar cases, in my opinion.
 

Solent&Wessex

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The route is therefore a regulated/protected route as it was permitted at privatisation.

As a general point I do often wonder how relevant this argument or principle is nowadays, to be honest.

Where there is obviously something quite shifty going on or the passengers are being unnecessarily hard done by then yes, I can see it being important. But in many cases in the past 21 years since the 1996 fares were set in stone, service patterns have changed, new routes and services opened. Some routes have better services, some have worse. In a number of cases completely new journey opportunities have become available that weren't necessarily available then. Passenger flows have changed which makes the TOCs (whether you agree or not) increase some fares more than others ( directly or indirectly and often at the request of the DfT), or in some cases keep some fares low compared to others. New types of fares have become available for many flows, some cheaper than in 1996 - some undoubtedly significantly more expensive though.

Bearing all this in mind I do think that the one size fits all approach of "if it was valid in 1996 it must be valid now" argument is dying away 21 years down the line, and a more reasoned analysis in each case would be more beneficial to all parties. Quite who would be responsible for that in reality is a different matter though.
 

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