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Your suggestions for the next Southeastern franchise

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otomous

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I actually took the opposite view and thought the mid Kent line to Hayes has got a better deal, the only downside being no direct service to Cannon Street New Cross and St Johns but that shouldn't be a big deal off peak.

Surely anybody for London Bridge would change at Lewisham from a Victoria service? I'm assuming it would also stop at Denmark Hill which is another useful link for Kings College Hospital?

Oh I think travelling in the up direction is fine - jump on first train, change at Lewisham or L Bridge or Charing x as appropriate. But with only 2tph through EITHER L Bridge or Lewisham, that depends on precise timings, or two changes instead of one to do the return. Keeping all the Hayes going via Lewisham to either Vic or Charing X would have allowed access to all three termini with one change without more than a 15 minute wait, and vice versa.
 
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Antman

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Oh I think travelling in the up direction is fine - jump on first train, change at Lewisham or L Bridge or Charing x as appropriate. But with only 2tph through EITHER L Bridge or Lewisham, that depends on precise timings, or two changes instead of one to do the return. Keeping all the Hayes going via Lewisham to either Vic or Charing X would have allowed access to all three termini with one change without more than a 15 minute wait, and vice versa.

I think it's inevitable that Charing Cross services would bypass Lewisham, a quicker journey time and for capacity reasons.
 

JamesRowden

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Does anyone know what journey times or stopping patterns are to be expected for the Ashford to Charing Cross fasts? I am hoping that they will start from Ramsgate instead of Dover as having to change would negate any time savings.

I had a look at a franchising briefing document I found but there was nothing on there about any of this apart from the fact that was a lot of opposition against removing any of the stopping services because of housing building at Headcorn or something. I hate that 48% so much.
There is no requirement for any fast services between Ashford and Charing Cross via Tonbridge. Just that:
  • At least 4tph must operate along that route
  • All those services have to call at Waterloo East, London Bridge, Sevenoaks, Tonbridge and Paddock Wood
  • At least 2tph of those services have to call at each of the stations between Paddock Wood and Ashford.
  • At least 4tph of those services combined with the Tunbridge Wells terminators must stop at Orpington with at least 2tph stopping at Hildenbrough.
  • Those services must operate in two pairs of every 30 minute services between Charing Cross and Ashford.
This means that a bidder could propose to have all 4tph run all stations from Sevenoaks to Ashford. But I think it is more likely that the minimum number of stops will be chosen with the potential exception of Orpington which is very useful for connections to South East London.

I would estimate that removing 4 stops from the existing services would reduce the Charing Cross to Ashford journey time from 80 minutes to 70 minutes.
 

yorksrob

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There is no requirement for any fast services between Ashford and Charing Cross via Tonbridge. Just that:
  • At least 4tph must operate along that route
  • All those services have to call at Waterloo East, London Bridge, Sevenoaks, Tonbridge and Paddock Wood
  • At least 2tph of those services have to call at each of the stations between Paddock Wood and Ashford.
  • At least 4tph of those services combined with the Tunbridge Wells terminators must stop at Orpington with at least 2tph stopping at Hildenbrough.
  • Those services must operate in two pairs of every 30 minute services between Charing Cross and Ashford.
This means that a bidder could propose to have all 4tph run all stations from Sevenoaks to Ashford. But I think it is more likely that the minimum number of stops will be chosen with the potential exception of Orpington which is very useful for connections to South East London.

I would estimate that removing 4 stops from the existing services would reduce the Charing Cross to Ashford journey time from 80 minutes to 70 minutes.

Pluckley gets two trains an hour at last !

It would be nice to have Paddock Wood to Ashford non-stop again.
 

Cletus

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Before HS1, I seem to remember that after Ashford trains from Dover Priory only stopped at Tonbridge and Waterloo East?
 

Antman

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Pluckley gets two trains an hour at last !

It would be nice to have Paddock Wood to Ashford non-stop again.

Tonbridge to Ashford non stop would be better, I don't really see why Paddock Wood needs 4tph.
 

Southern

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Before HS1, I seem to remember that after Ashford trains from Dover Priory only stopped at Tonbridge and Waterloo East?

Indeed they did, 1tph - the other had additional calls at Staplehurst and Paddock Wood. There were also an additional 2tph between Ashford - Charing Cross which were looped at Headcorn for the fasts to pass.
 
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Maybe I been just biased because I have a hatred passion for this station, but I am honestly surprised st Johns isn’t considered from closure. And that didn’t form part of the plan. Many times I been there and no one has left or bordered the train either it could close or have its service reduced. Considering it’s so close to lewisham.
 

cle

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I'd tend to agree. If the ELL had ever made it there and to Lewisham, possibly fine. As it is, that branch to NX is a dud anyway. The Bakerloo will come to the area eventually too.

Less than 1 million users in (tubeless and dense) South London zone 2 is pitiful. Then again, it would add more strain to New Cross and Lewisham stations, or to local buses. And too many lines whizz through zone 2 as it is... fine in N/W/E where the tube exists but in south, not so good.
 

JamesRowden

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I have just calculated that reversing the proposed hourly faster Charing Cross to Hastings service to continue to Eastbourne would provide Bexhill to/from London Bridge journeys about 15 minutes faster than the present Bexhill to Victoria journey (assuming that the train requires 5 minutes to reverse at Hastings).
 

telstarbox

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Maybe I been just biased because I have a hatred passion for this station, but I am honestly surprised st Johns isn’t considered from closure. And that didn’t form part of the plan. Many times I been there and no one has left or bordered the train either it could close or have its service reduced. Considering it’s so close to lewisham.

I can see your point but would closing St Johns result in any more paths through Lewisham?
 
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I can see your point but would closing St Johns result in any more paths through Lewisham?

Probably not, however surely the cost in serving this station would be eliminated. Unless passenger usage increases which is unlikely then I don’t see why there is a need for it. It doesn’t seem to serve a purpose like lewisham or new cross does. Lewisham station is a quick walking distance. And all services that serve St. John’s, serve both lewisham and new cross.
 

Antman

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Maybe I been just biased because I have a hatred passion for this station, but I am honestly surprised st Johns isn’t considered from closure. And that didn’t form part of the plan. Many times I been there and no one has left or bordered the train either it could close or have its service reduced. Considering it’s so close to lewisham.

I don't know why you hate the station? I appreciate it's not the busiest of stations but I think there would be uproar if closure was suggested.
 
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I don't why you hate the station? I appreciate it's not the busiest of stations but I think there would be uproar if closure was suggested.
I have just bad luck of being stuck there in signal failures, or trains developing technical issues and the snow a few years ago. It’s cursed!

Of course there would be a uproar, I suppose like many station closures or changes/reduction in service. But considering the station usage isn’t high with most people picking lewisham or new cross. In my opinion it doesn’t seem much business sense to keep it open. We have to remember the railways are ran as a business and not just a public service.
 

Barn

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I have just bad luck of being stuck there in signal failures, or trains developing technical issues and the snow a few years ago. It’s cursed!

Of course there would be a uproar, I suppose like many station closures or changes/reduction in service. But considering the station usage isn’t high with most people picking lewisham or new cross. In my opinion it doesn’t seem much business sense to keep it open. We have to remember the railways are ran as a business and not just a public service.

800,000ish uses per annum is not to be sniffed at, and certainly not a crowd that you would wish to send to already-very-busy Lewisham.
 

Bromley boy

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I have just bad luck of being stuck there in signal failures, or trains developing technical issues and the snow a few years ago. It’s cursed!

Of course there would be a uproar, I suppose like many station closures or changes/reduction in service. But considering the station usage isn’t high with most people picking lewisham or new cross. In my opinion it doesn’t seem much business sense to keep it open. We have to remember the railways are ran as a business and not just a public service.

I must say that viewpoint seems more than a little irrational!

According to Wikipedia St Johns serves around 900,000 passengers per year. That's more than Bromley North, Knockholt and Erith. It's a similar number to Chelsfiled, Albany Park, and many other stations on the SE network. Presumably you believe there's no business case for keeping those stations open, either?

It's not the busiest of stations on the network but hardly "quiet" by most standards, particularly as quite a few services skip it and it only has platforms on two lines of four.

I'd much rather they closed Lewisham - now that is a truly hateful station <D.
 
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Bromley boy

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I don't think so. The document is here, with Hayes line requirements on page 10. Unless I've badly misread something, it certainly looks to me like from 2022 Hayes is getting 2tph to Victoria and 2tph to Charing Cross (not calling at Lewisham) as the normal timetable - with no more Hayes-Cannon Street services.

Quite right - apologies - it's going back to Hayes - Ch+/CST after Christmas this year but as you say appears to be going to Hayes - Ch+\Vic from 2022.

In a way I can see that boosting a currently under-utilised market - more down trains from Victoria via Lewisham and not really any negative impact on "up" trains from Hayes. In fact it will improve matters. New up trains to Vic, which will all serve Lewisham, Ch+ passengers won't be affected and CST passengers will be able to change at London Bridge, so perhaps it presents a more even spread of available destinations from the infrastructure. It's currently pretty difficult to get to Victoria from stations on the mid Kent (i.e. Hayes) line. Even Clock House and New Beckenham, the closest mid Kent line stations to the Chatham mainline, are still quite a long walk from Beckenham Junction or Kent House.

At the moment the only option to get to Victoria for many mid Kent line passengers is changing at Lewisham for the half hourly Dartford - Vic trains, or possibly walking the short distance from Catford Bridge to Catford, cramming onto GTR services and changing at Denmark Hill.

The Lewisham - Nunhead link is relatively quiet (albeit with a fair few freight and ECS movements). However it'll be interesting to see how the pathing works on the Catford Loop/Atlantic Lines with all these new Victoria services, particularly as the Atlantics are also served by TFL Rail services.
 
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bicbasher

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Any change which brings 4tph back to Peckham Rye (and Denmark Hill) lost when London Overground replaced the Southern SLL services into Victoria is fine by me. If anything, it may relieve the ELL into Canada Water which is extremely busy during the peaks.
 

otomous

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Quite right - apologies - it's going back to Hayes - Ch+/CST after Christmas this year but as you say appears to be going to Hayes - Ch+\Vic from 2022.

In a way I can see that boosting a currently under-utilised market - more down trains from Victoria via Lewisham and not really any negative impact on "up" trains from Hayes. In fact it will improve matters. New up trains to Vic, which will all serve Lewisham, Ch+ passengers won't be affected and CST passengers will be able to change at London Bridge, so perhaps it presents a more even spread of available destinations from the infrastructure. It's currently pretty difficult to get to Victoria from stations on the mid Kent (i.e. Hayes) line. Even Clock House and New Beckenham, the closest mid Kent line stations to the Chatham mainline, are still quite a long walk from Beckenham Junction or Kent House.

At the moment the only option to get to Victoria for many mid Kent line passengers is changing at Lewisham for the half hourly Dartford - Vic trains, or possibly walking the short distance from Catford Bridge to Catford, cramming onto GTR services and changing at Denmark Hill.

The Lewisham - Nunhead link is relatively quiet (albeit with a fair few freight and ECS movements). However it'll be interesting to see how the pathing works on the Catford Loop/Atlantic Lines with all these new Victoria services, particularly as the Atlantics are also served by TFL Rail services.

4tph is Lewisham-Vic is great but the way it has been arranged means just 2tph Hayes-London Bridge - it has moved further away from turn up and go, especially on the return trip.

At Victoria there will be 4tph - fine, change at Lewisham but only 2tph from there to Hayes - timings got to be right
At Cannon Street - plenty of trains to London Bridge or Lewisham, but again only 2tph to Hayes
At Charing Cross - only 2tph so miss one and you've got to time it right for the 2tph at Lewisham

There are currently 4 evenly spaced trains from London Bridge so you can go there to change with confidence that you won't have a long wait for the next Hayes train. And it was always possible to go to Charing Cross or Cannon Street to change for a tube to Victoria. This move has introduced extra changes and less convenience overall.

I might be reading it wrong but the other branches appear to have 6tph shared between 2 destinations (except the Blackheath-Woolwich link - and all the stations on the connected lines have more choices anyway); if Hayes had 4 to Vic and 2 to Charing Cross or vice versa that would balance things a bit more - everything is turn up and go and one change only for a choice of terminals - which I thought was the whole point of the new timetable.

Clock House is all of ten minutes at worst from Kent House - it's frequently recommended as an interchange by National Rail Enquiries.
 

Antman

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4tph is Lewisham-Vic is great but the way it has been arranged means just 2tph Hayes-London Bridge - it has moved further away from turn up and go, especially on the return trip.

At Victoria there will be 4tph - fine, change at Lewisham but only 2tph from there to Hayes - timings got to be right
At Cannon Street - plenty of trains to London Bridge or Lewisham, but again only 2tph to Hayes
At Charing Cross - only 2tph so miss one and you've got to time it right for the 2tph at Lewisham

There are currently 4 evenly spaced trains from London Bridge so you can go there to change with confidence that you won't have a long wait for the next Hayes train. And it was always possible to go to Charing Cross or Cannon Street to change for a tube to Victoria. This move has introduced extra changes and less convenience overall.

I might be reading it wrong but the other branches appear to have 6tph shared between 2 destinations (except the Blackheath-Woolwich link - and all the stations on the connected lines have more choices anyway); if Hayes had 4 to Vic and 2 to Charing Cross or vice versa that would balance things a bit more - everything is turn up and go and one change only for a choice of terminals - which I thought was the whole point of the new timetable.

Clock House is all of ten minutes at worst from Kent House - it's frequently recommended as an interchange by National Rail Enquiries.

I understand what you're saying but there is only ever going to be 2tph to and from Lewisham to Hayes with the other 2tph going via the Ladywell curve. I think the Hayes line could justify 6tph but whether the capacity exists for that without cutting something else is another matter.

I also think Lewisham to Victoria would also justify 6tph but again capacity is the issue.

More passengers changing trains at Lewisham would be less than ideal to put it mildly.
 
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Bromley boy

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4tph is Lewisham-Vic is great but the way it has been arranged means just 2tph Hayes-London Bridge - it has moved further away from turn up and go, especially on the return trip.

It might be more than 4 Lewisham - Vic as I believe I read elsewhere that ex Sidcup line trains will be routing to Vic - not sure without checking if these are in addition to the existing Dartford - Vics via Bexleyheath. This would be beneficial as these trains are max 8 coaches, and are always networkers.

2tph Hayes - London Bridge, but with more trains going from Lewisham to London the interchange here should be better. It's not brilliant at the moment and hopefully the station will be redeveloped at some point.

At Victoria there will be 4tph - fine, change at Lewisham but only 2tph from there to Hayes - timings got to be right
At Cannon Street - plenty of trains to London Bridge or Lewisham, but again only 2tph to Hayes
At Charing Cross - only 2tph so miss one and you've got to time it right for the 2tph at Lewisham

Quite right on the timings needing to be right - I guess more services coming down from London - Lewisham should make it easy for ex CST/Ch+ passengers to pick up the ex Vic Hayes train at Lewisham if they miss the fast.

I might be reading it wrong but the other branches appear to have 6tph shared between 2 destinations (except the Blackheath-Woolwich link - and all the stations on the connected lines have more choices anyway); if Hayes had 4 to Vic and 2 to Charing Cross or vice versa that would balance things a bit more - everything is turn up and go and one change only for a choice of terminals - which I thought was the whole point of the new timetable.

That would be ideal but probably wouldn't be possible with the current signalling on the route - there's quite a bit of two aspect signalling between Elmers End and Hayes. There's also the issue of only two platforms at Hayes with opposing movements (trains departing p2 have to wait for arriving trains to cross over into p1 from the down before departing Hayes onto the up), allowing time for drivers to change ends etc. And that's before even considering stock issues.

Clock House is all of ten minutes at worst from Kent House - it's frequently recommended as an interchange by National Rail Enquiries.

I don't think this is a well used interchange.

From a quick play around on the TfL journey planner passengers from Hayes/West Wickham
- Vic are better off catching a bus to Bromley South. It might work at a pinch for Eden Park or Elmers End but the tram to East Croydon often works out just as well.

TFL recommend 15 minutes walk. Agreed it's probably less for a fit person, but hardly an easy interchange and does depend on timings of orpy-vic services at Kent House. 15 mins walk from Clock House to Kent House and 15 mins wait if you've just missed one.

Overall I see where you're coming from and can understand the criticisms. But given the infrastructure limitations on the mid Kent line, two trains per hour going to Vic may represent a better use of infrastructure when you consider additional trains to and from Lewisham for passengers towards LBG.

I'd imagine the thinking is that there will be more off peak demand for direct trains to Vic than there is to cannon st.
 
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DynamicSpirit

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It might be more than 4 Lewisham - Vic as I believe I read elsewhere that ex Sidcup line trains will be routing to Vic - not sure without checking if these are in addition to the existing Dartford - Vics via Bexleyheath. This would be beneficial as these trains are max 8 coaches, and are always networkers.

My reading of the specs is that it'll be 4 Lewisham-Victoria from 2022. 2tph from Hayes and 2tph from the Sidcup line. Bexleyheath line trains will no longer go to Victoria. So - two half-hourly services Lewisham-Victoria and the requirement is for no more than a 20 minute gap between the two routes.

2tph Hayes - London Bridge, but with more trains going from Lewisham to London the interchange here should be better. It's not brilliant at the moment and hopefully the station will be redeveloped at some point.

I'm not quite sure if there will be more trains from Lewisham. The franchise specs seem to have an awful lot of metro trains skipping Lewisham, although I'm not sure of numbers. Obviously, things are exceptionally bad at the moment for interchange because of CST trains not calling at London Bridge, and that particular problem will go away next year. I agree with you on the need to redevelop the station. It really needs some infrastructure that would allow all metro services to call at Lewisham - especially when the Bakerloo line arrives there. But that would require some very major works, and I'm not sure what you would be able to realistically do to achieve that.
 
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ScotGG

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Passenger usage at St Johns has increased quite sharply over the past 5-10 years. It went from 500k to near a million. London Bridge work has since held it back with constant weekend (and longer term closure eg from 23 Dec -2 Jan this Xmas again) closures but once that's complete it could well resume its growth as the numbers of people living locally are only increasing.
 

Antman

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My reading of the specs is that it'll be 4 Lewisham-Victoria from 2022. 2tph from Hayes and 2tph from the Sidcup line. Bexleyheath line trains will no longer go to Victoria. So - two half-hourly services Lewisham-Victoria and the requirement is for no more than a 20 minute gap between the two routes.



I'm not quite sure if there will be more trains from Lewisham. The franchise specs seem to have an awful lot of metro trains skipping Lewisham, although I'm not sure of numbers. Obviously, things are exceptionally bad at the moment for interchange because of CST trains not calling at London Bridge, and that particular problem will go away next year. I agree with you on the need to redevelop the station. It really needs some infrastructure that would allow all metro services to call at Lewisham - especially when the Bakerloo line arrives there. But that would require some very major works, and I'm not sure what you would be able to realistically do to achieve that.

If the boat was really going to be pushed out build a new station on the four track section that currently bypasses Lewisham with the current station being used only for a Victoria to Dartford service via Bexleyheath or Woolwich Arsenal using platforms 3 and 4. The potentially dangerously curved platforms 1 and 2 could be taken out of use with the tracks retained for empty stock and freight train movements. Hayes trains would all go to Charing Cross via the Ladywell curve although in the long term maybe an extended Bakerloo Line should take over the mid Kent line serving both Hayes and Beckenham Junction alternatly. This would also allow some longer distance trains to stop as well with some sort of walkway linking the stations. Obviously this would be a massive undertaking so unlikely to ever happen.
 

ScotGG

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With the number of new homes something will have to happen. 12 years till the Bakerloo arrives at the earliest
 

cle

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Denmark Hill, Peckham Rye and Nunhead have really benefitted - going from 2tph Victoria (terrible service/timings) to 4tph and same on the Thameslink route - both all week.

Denmark Hill also has the Dover and other peak calls to augment it further. Peckham needs the Southern services to return properly and increase.

Such an uplift in service. If the ELL increases frequency to Clapham, as I've read, to 6tph - both DH and PR are going to be very well served little hubs.
 

Antman

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Denmark Hill, Peckham Rye and Nunhead have really benefitted - going from 2tph Victoria (terrible service/timings) to 4tph and same on the Thameslink route - both all week.

Denmark Hill also has the Dover and other peak calls to augment it further. Peckham needs the Southern services to return properly and increase.

Such an uplift in service. If the ELL increases frequency to Clapham, as I've read, to 6tph - both DH and PR are going to be very well served little hubs.

It's good but I think coastal services going that way are going to be delayed as a result with 8tph plus freight to contend with.
 

Bromley boy

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My reading of the specs is that it'll be 4 Lewisham-Victoria from 2022. 2tph from Hayes and 2tph from the Sidcup line. Bexleyheath line trains will no longer go to Victoria. So - two half-hourly services Lewisham-Victoria and the requirement is for no more than a 20 minute gap between the two routes.

In that case it’s still a little improvement on the half hourly dartford - Vic service which does seem very over subscribed. At least most of those have been recently lengthened to 8 cars during the peaks, with the arrival of the 377s and the release of the 465/9s.

I'm not quite sure if there will be more trains from Lewisham. The franchise specs seem to have an awful lot of metro trains skipping Lewisham, although I'm not sure of numbers. Obviously, things are exceptionally bad at the moment for interchange because of CST trains not calling at London Bridge, and that particular problem will go away next year. I agree with you on the need to redevelop the station. It really needs some infrastructure that would allow all metro services to call at Lewisham - especially when the Bakerloo line arrives there. But that would require some very major works, and I'm not sure what you would be able to realistically do to achieve that.

That’s an interesting point. It’s interesting to consider how much of the “improvement” SE passengers see in 2018 will actually just be things reverting back to how they were before the works began. Albeit with a substantially improved London Bridge which has a far higher capacity and better reliability of infrastructure.

I can understand how SE customers may feel that they’ve born the brunt of the TL disruption and haven’t been the main beneficiaries, although of course they will still see big improvements, particularly as there will be more GTR services running over SE routes.
 
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Bromley boy

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If the boat was really going to be pushed out build a new station on the four track section that currently bypasses Lewisham with the current station being used only for a Victoria to Dartford service via Bexleyheath or Woolwich Arsenal using platforms 3 and 4. The potentially dangerously curved platforms 1 and 2 could be taken out of use with the tracks retained for empty stock and freight train movements. Hayes trains would all go to Charing Cross via the Ladywell curve although in the long term maybe an extended Bakerloo Line should take over the mid Kent line serving both Hayes and Beckenham Junction alternatly. This would also allow some longer distance trains to stop as well with some sort of walkway linking the stations. Obviously this would be a massive undertaking so unlikely to ever happen.

That’s an interesting idea and there can be little doubt that if Lewisham was being built from scratch today the layout wouldn’t be remotely similar!

I suspect the problem with this ambitious idea would be the usual one of cost, extreme lack of space and the need to build around an extremely busy operating railway.

EDIT: and you’d probably still need to keep platforms 1 and 2 as otherwise you’d be squeezing all the mainline ex cannon st and Charing + services onto two down lines,
in addition to the (4tph) Hayes line services which would stop and then need to depart (slowly via the ladywell loop). There are also the (2tph) CST - orpington and occasional CH+ - Sevenoaks stoppers that serve Lewisham and would also need to be accomodated all on only two down lines.
 
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Bromley boy

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It's good but I think coastal services going that way are going to be delayed as a result with 8tph plus freight to contend with.

I guess it may become possible to send more or these down the Chathams how there won’t be so many GTR services crossing the flat junction at Herne Hill.
 
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