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South Western Railway could axe quiet train carriages

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GodAtum

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-42236003
A train operator could be about to signal the end of quiet carriages on its services.

South Western Railway has said conductors are often unable to enforce the rules on board trains.

The firm has asked customers to vote on whether they want to see the end of the noise-free zones.

Some operators, including Cross Country and Great Western Railway, have already abolished quiet carriages on some of their services.

South Western, which operates lines between London and Weymouth, Portsmouth, Reading, and the Island Line on the Isle of Wight, said quiet carriages can be "a thorn in the side of some and safe havens for others".

Speaking at Reading station, passenger Oliver Johnston said: "I'm young, so it doesn't bother me where I sit on the train."

However, he added: "If you want a bit of peace and quiet though, there is more space on those carriages."

'Not adequately governed'
Another, Tom Willis, said quiet carriages were "somewhere nice to sit quietly and kick back with a book".

"The rules do get bent a bit in rush hour, but outside of those times I think it does work quite well."

South Western argues it is unable to effectively police the carriages - which prohibit mobile phone use and loud conversations.

"There is a limited amount of action that we can take as a train operator," head of customer experience Christian Neil said.

"We have had feedback from customers for many years, on both sides, saying that they are not adequately governed."

Lisa Lavia, from the Noise Abatement Society, said passengers should have "some respite from the cacophony of travel and modern life".,,,

It's a shame the excuse is it cannot be enforced:

"We have had feedback from customers for many years, on both sides, saying that they are not adequately governed."

Like saying we cannot check tickets so we might as well not run a train service :rolleyes:
 
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It's a shame the excuse is it cannot be enforced:

Like saying we cannot check tickets so we might as well not run a train service :rolleyes:

I'd regret it if quiet carriages are no longer there, but how can they be enforced?

Principally it's got be by passengers observing the rules, and other passengers speaking to them when they don't. In practice, many passengers who look as if they are normally law-abiding use their phone in a quiet coach whenever it suits them. Not many people point out to such a person that they are in the quiet coach and shouldn't use it.

If someone refuses to be quiet, what else can be done? Where there's a guard, as on all SWR services, he or she should try to enforce it. So passengers in the quiet coach have to find the guard. What can the guard actually do? He's got other duties to perform every time the train stops, and he should also be checking tickets, so attempts to persuade the passenger to toe the line are going to be intermittent.

I'd keep the quiet coach, tell guards to be more active in trying to enforce quietness, encourage passengers to ask rule-breakers to be quiet or go elsewhere and to support guards. Putting it another way, recognise that the situation isn't 100% satisfactory but continue to put up with that for the sake of the benefits when it does work.
 

Doctor Fegg

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"Some operators, including Cross Country and Great Western Railway, have already abolished quiet carriages on some of their services."

What services have GWR abolished quiet carriages on? Yes, the First Class conversion work removed one of the quiet carriages on those services, but didn't "abolish" them: Carriage A remains a quiet carriage.
 

al78

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If someone refuses to be quiet, what else can be done?

Punch them in the face.

No, not really, but there is nothing that can be done. It is similar to the case where staff are advised not to challenge fare dodgers if there is a risk of violence. That same risk applies to challenging anyone about anything, regardless of whether or not they are in the wrong. If you want to challenge someone on their behaviour, make sure you have backup and/or some effective self defence training.
 

RichardN

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Quiet zones could stay, but I'd rather it was in a middle coach than the end coach as there's nothing worse than two coupled together, right where you want to get on...
 

Doctor Fegg

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There are some things that are worse, e.g. having your eyeballs removed with a rusty spoon, or travelling on a Voyager.
 

swaldman

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Quiet coaches on uncrowded service where you make a choice are a great concept.

Quiet coaches on a SWR commuter service, where you're lucky to have room to stand let alone a choice of which coach to do it in, are silly.

Quiet coaches on a service with reservations where there is (at least, through online systems) no way to choose whether you want to be in or to avoid a quiet coach are equally silly.
 

ChilternTurbo

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The Quiet Zone on Chiltern Railways works pretty well during my commute. I've periodically done the not very British thing of politely reminding a someone on the phone that they're seated in a quiet area and apart from one obnoxious individual, it's been fine. I'd be disappointed if Chiltern ever got rid of them...
 

HowardGWR

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I think it would be possible for a guard to respectfully call for cooperation if a passenger asks him to do so. If they can't even be brave enough to ask for that, or a fare to be paid, it's time to get another job it seems to me. I have gently asked people to be fair-minded about observing the rule, (just point to the notice on the bulkhead) and I've never had a problem. Many people live in a fog and don't read notices, but will understand when it's pointed out to them. I agree that in 'crush conditions' it's too much to ask.
 

al78

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I think it would be possible for a guard to respectfully call for cooperation if a passenger asks him to do so. If they can't even be brave enough to ask for that, or a fare to be paid, it's time to get another job it seems to me. I have gently asked people to be fair-minded about observing the rule, (just point to the notice on the bulkhead) and I've never had a problem. Many people live in a fog and don't read notices, but will understand when it's pointed out to them. I agree that in 'crush conditions' it's too much to ask.

Whilst I can sympathise what can the guard do if firstly the pasasenger refuses and secondly the passenger becomes aggressive? It has been pointed out on here that guards shouldn't put themselves in danger dealing with a non-compliantr passenger. The unfortunate side effect of this is that the dickheads out there get away with their behaviour, and so sometimes being a dickhead pays (ultimately encouraging more dickhead behaviour). There is not an easy solution to this, I don't think calling the individuals bluff and being ready to exchange blows if it came down to it, would end up any better overall.
 

moley

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I think part of the problem is that when these were introduced in 2004, too many people thought they were silent coaches.

Yes have your quiet conversation, your quiet call or music through headphones BUT don't don't make it loud enough I can hear, turn off your mobile ring tone and keep your music at a level it stays within your headphones.
 

Harbouring

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On a SWR service, in the quiet carriage, in the middle of the day, 2 on duty staff members decided to spend ten minutes discussing what one of them won in a meat raffle at the weekend amongst other things. Didn’t bother me but it hardly sets the example that staff are willing to enforce quiet carriages.


Nb. This is all 100% accurate seriously.
 

BestWestern

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The SWT/SWR quiet coaches are a bit silly, in my opinion. A third of a carriage or thereabouts, not in any way separated from the rest of the carriage and identified only by easily missed little stickers between - rather than on - the windows. I've travelled on trains that happen to be fairly quiet, I've travelled on trains that have been noisy, but I've never noticed it being properly observed. It does seem a slightly pointless feature in this particular instance.
 

Bletchleyite

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Quiet coaches on uncrowded service where you make a choice are a great concept.

Quiet coaches on a SWR commuter service, where you're lucky to have room to stand let alone a choice of which coach to do it in, are silly.

I guess those SWR commuters are not as civilised as us on the south WCML.

All coaches on south WCML commuter services are quiet coaches, entirely voluntarily. Woe betide (well, tutting and dirty looks betide) the odd person who doesn't comply. :)
 

ComUtoR

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On a SWR service, in the quiet carriage, in the middle of the day, 2 on duty staff members decided to spend ten minutes discussing what one of them won in a meat raffle at the weekend amongst other things. Didn’t bother me but it hardly sets the example that staff are willing to enforce quiet carriages.

Nb. This is all 100% accurate seriously.

Its been said many many times about 'quiet coaches' they are quiet not silent.
 

Doctor Fegg

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The SWT/SWR quiet coaches are a bit silly, in my opinion. A third of a carriage or thereabouts, not in any way separated from the rest of the carriage and identified only by easily missed little stickers between - rather than on - the windows. I've travelled on trains that happen to be fairly quiet, I've travelled on trains that have been noisy, but I've never noticed it being properly observed. It does seem a slightly pointless feature in this particular instance.

Though SWT did (on some trains, at least) label the quiet coach on the train doors, which is an excellent idea and one I wish GWR would copy.
 

Harbouring

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Its been said many many times about 'quiet coaches' they are quiet not silent.
Naturally, however they were sitting either side of the aisle (I was sitting on the seat next to the door the drivers use in a 450, the best seats in a 450) and they were quite loud because of this.
 

TEW

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The SWT/SWR quiet coaches are a bit silly, in my opinion. A third of a carriage or thereabouts, not in any way separated from the rest of the carriage and identified only by easily missed little stickers between - rather than on - the windows. I've travelled on trains that happen to be fairly quiet, I've travelled on trains that have been noisy, but I've never noticed it being properly observed. It does seem a slightly pointless feature in this particular instance.
It's better on the Desiro fleet where it is a whole carriage, but it is still not that well marked.
 

BestWestern

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It's better on the Desiro fleet where it is a whole carriage, but it is still not that well marked.

Is it? I must confess I didn't realise that, it was the Desiros I was talking about!
 

BestWestern

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Though SWT did (on some trains, at least) label the quiet coach on the train doors, which is an excellent idea and one I wish GWR would copy.

True. I'd like to see more, though. Very large external branding and some sort of unmistakable internal distinction - perhaps the bulkheads and ceilings decked out in 'sky and clouds' vinyl or something, or a shiny teeth model doing a smiling 'shhhhh' face etc, along with markings on the seatbacks. Properly or not at all!
 

TEW

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Is it? I must confess I didn't realise that, it was the Desiros I was talking about!
It is a whole carriage on both the 444s and 450s! It is only about half a carriage on the 158s and 159s.
 

Harbouring

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And on a single 450 this equals around 30% of std seating. Which is quite a lot.
 

nlogax

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From this perspective quiet coaches seemed to be barely policed, and mostly relied on the (supposed) good nature of Dorset, Surrey and Hampshire travelers. I've witnessed an occasional 'shush' from a passenger or two when it came to confronting those with leaky headphones but that's about it.
 

infobleep

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The thing about quiet coaches is that they are arbitrary. For example the 8.02 Woking to Waterloo service has a quite coach, as does the 8.05 but the 8.32 and 9.02 don't.

Trains from Guildford to Waterloo via Cobham spend half their time in countryside and smaller towns and villages, yet no quiet coach exists at any time unless they are borrowing a 450, when suddenly one appears.

Incidentally they seem to struggle with the policing of bikes in the rush hour so I think they should remove the policy of not allowing bikes. I don't ride one myself so I wouldn't even gain from this relaxation. So they struggle to deal with it, get rid of it.
 

Bletchleyite

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Could they do the bike thing differently, i.e. a fee for carriage of a flat £50 before 0930? Then if anyone failed to pay and reached a barrier with a bike, that's a Byelaw or RoRA prosecution straight off.
 

All Line Rover

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South Western argues it is unable to effectively conduct ticket inspections - which prohibit ticketless travel and combat antisocial behaviour.

"There is a limited amount of action that we can take as a train operator," head of customer experience Christian Neil said.

"We have had feedback from customers for many years, on both sides, saying that ticket inspections are not adequately enforced. Should ticket inspections be retained?".
 

All Line Rover

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Credit where credit is due, at least South Western Railway is consulting its customers prior to making any changes.
 
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