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Your suggestions for the next Southeastern franchise

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Was there not a plan for Hayes line services to end and transfer to Tramlink in the future. or am I imagining it
 
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Antman

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Was there not a plan for Hayes line services to end and transfer to Tramlink in the future. or am I imagining it

Not Tramlink but possibly an extension of the Bakerloo line, whether it ever happens remains to be seen.
 

BluePenguin

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I don't think that information is available yet because most of it is up to what the franchisee decides. The DfT specify certain things - such as that there must be 4tpfh from Ashford to London via Tonbridge, and that 2 of those should be fast, but a lot of the detail is left up to the bidders - presumably to decide what kind of timetable they can work out that best satisfies the specs. I don't recall the document saying where the Ashford to CHX fasts should originate, so I'd imagine that will be decided by the franchisee (and could even change during the franchise).

I am pleased to hear that at least there will be some sort of fast service, quite how much time they will save we will have wait and see. Maybe the new bidders will have some more sense on over stopping patterns than Govia have. I am hoping Dover won't be where they start and stop.
 

BluePenguin

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There is no requirement for any fast services between Ashford and Charing Cross via Tonbridge. Just that:
  • At least 4tph must operate along that route
  • All those services have to call at Waterloo East, London Bridge, Sevenoaks, Tonbridge and Paddock Wood
  • At least 2tph of those services have to call at each of the stations between Paddock Wood and Ashford.
  • At least 4tph of those services combined with the Tunbridge Wells terminators must stop at Orpington with at least 2tph stopping at Hildenbrough.
  • Those services must operate in two pairs of every 30 minute services between Charing Cross and Ashford.
This means that a bidder could propose to have all 4tph run all stations from Sevenoaks to Ashford. But I think it is more likely that the minimum number of stops will be chosen with the potential exception of Orpington which is very useful for connections to South East London.

I would estimate that removing 4 stops from the existing services would reduce the Charing Cross to Ashford journey time from 80 minutes to 70 minutes.
How very complicated! I don't know why Paddock Wood is quite so important. Sevenoaks seems to be a stop on very service now. It would be lovely if the bidders didn't opt to keep the current services as they are and bring us back some speed! Your estimation of a 10 minute saving sounds about right.
 

BluePenguin

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Indeed they did, 1tph - the other had additional calls at Staplehurst and Paddock Wood. There were also an additional 2tph between Ashford - Charing Cross which were looped at Headcorn for the fasts to pass.
I think the last time they ever stopped at only Tonbridge at Waterloo East was 2008. After that I remember Sevenoaks and London Bridge being added.
 

BluePenguin

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Before HS1, I seem to remember that after Ashford trains from Dover Priory only stopped at Tonbridge and Waterloo East?
Back then they all started at Ramsgate rather than Dover. You are correct, there was only 2 stops and Ashford to Wateroo East took 55 minutes.

Later on, Sevenoaks and London Bridge were added which was very annoying and added an extra few minutes making the journy 1 hour 8 minutes. Next thing you know, all of the stops are added slowing down services to 1 hour 20 the services and only run from Dover. Shame on you Southeastern for robbing us of our perfectly speedy mainline. I can't believe they went to this extreme to make HS1 look so much faster and better.
 

BluePenguin

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Looking at that document, it seems the minimum requirement through Rainham is only 2tph to Victoria, plus the 2tph to St Pancras. This is a drop from the 3tph to Victoria that currently exists (one of which stops where I work at Denmark Hill). Of course this ignores the addition of 2tph Thameslink trains through the core.
I wonder whether the fares to St Pancras from the stations after Rainham on Thameslink will be much cheaper than HS1
 

BluePenguin

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I would presume so, and also I expect them to take almost twice the time too!
Of course! No doubt with the cheaper prices there will be awfully slow journeys to match.

We had better enjoy the last of the current service. I doubt anyone even prefers to go to Blackfriars over Charing Cross anyway.
 

ScotGG

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And Thameslink via Greenwich will be slower than the current Southeastern semi-fasts and even the Southeastern all-stoppers past Dartford. Loads of timetable padding is included making journeys very slow.
 

BluePenguin

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And Thameslink via Greenwich will be slower than the current Southeastern semi-fasts and even the Southeastern all-stoppers past Dartford. Loads of timetable padding is included making journeys very slow.
What on earth is the point of all that extra padding when the current services make do without any of it?
 

Bromley boy

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Was there not a plan for Hayes line services to end and transfer to Tramlink in the future. or am I imagining it

There have been mutterings about turning the Bromley North branch into a tram - nothing more than mutterings from interested parties, though, as per the below document. Nothing official has ever been suggested as far as I know.

Could that be what you are thinking of?

https://www.londonreconnections.com/2013/the-past-and-future-of-the-bromley-north-branch/

Shortly after Croydon Tramlink opened and was judged a success, it was natural that people looked around for somewhere else to emulate this. The Bromley North branch was an obvious choice with many similarities to the Addiscombe branch. Suggestions either used the Bromley North branch as the basis of a new tram system or by various convoluted routes proposed somehow joining it to Croydon Tramlink. Unfortunately the Bromley North branch is very different in character from the lines that made up Tramlink, excepting perhaps the original Elmers End – Addiscombe branch, the southern half of which was abandoned and is now a linear park. It is really difficult to see the potential for more than one additional stop (New Street Hill is the only obvious candidate) and a line that skirts the edge of Sundridge Park golf course for much of its route and also adjoins playing fields and a cemetery doesn’t have the potential for traffic that the Croydon Tramlink, which mainly passes through built up areas, does.

Significantly no suggestions have come from Bromley or Lewisham council, and West London Tram has shown what happens if you don’t have the local council at least supporting (and preferably leading) the project.
 

Southern

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I think the last time they ever stopped at only Tonbridge at Waterloo East was 2008. After that I remember Sevenoaks and London Bridge being added.

December 2009, according to some old timetables I've come across. Typical off-peak pattern was as follows:

1tph Margate - Charing X calling at Broadstairs, Dumpton Park, Ramsgate, Canterbury West, Ashford*, Tonbridge and Waterloo East.

1tph Ramsgate - Charing X calling at Minster, Sturry, Canterbury West, Ashford**, Staplehurst, Paddock Wood, Tonbridge and Waterloo East.

* Ramsgate via Dover portion attached to rear
**Attached to rear of Dover via Folkestone service

Those patterns appear to have come into being around 2004 - before that, off-peak services would attach/detach at Tonbridge rather than Ashford and then only 1tph.
 

yorksrob

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There have been mutterings about turning the Bromley North branch into a tram - nothing more than mutterings from interested parties, though, as per the below document. Nothing official has ever been suggested as far as I know.

Could that be what you are thinking of?

https://www.londonreconnections.com/2013/the-past-and-future-of-the-bromley-north-branch/

Indeed. The Bromley North line is short and does what it does well enough and without fuss. Trying to design a tram system around it would be a solution looking for a problem.
 

Antman

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Indeed. The Bromley North line is short and does what it does well enough and without fuss. Trying to design a tram system around it would be a solution looking for a problem.

Ideally a tram service would continue on street into Bromley town centre and beyond, whether that ever happens remains to be seen.
 

Bromley boy

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Ideally a tram service would continue on street into Bromley town centre and beyond, whether that ever happens remains to be seen.

If Tramlink could be extended from Beckenham Junction along Bromley Road to Shortlands, up Swan Hill (possibly too steep?!), down the north bit of the high st via the market square, round towards Bromley North via Widmore Road, it might make sense to link the whole thing up.

No doubt that would be physically impossible and none of those locations are very far from bus links or more than ten minutes walk or so from Beckenham Junction or Shortlands, so may not be seen as worth doing.
 

Barn

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December 2009, according to some old timetables I've come across. Typical off-peak pattern was as follows:

1tph Margate - Charing X calling at Broadstairs, Dumpton Park, Ramsgate, Canterbury West, Ashford*, Tonbridge and Waterloo East.

1tph Ramsgate - Charing X calling at Minster, Sturry, Canterbury West, Ashford**, Staplehurst, Paddock Wood, Tonbridge and Waterloo East.

* Ramsgate via Dover portion attached to rear
**Attached to rear of Dover via Folkestone service

Those patterns appear to have come into being around 2004 - before that, off-peak services would attach/detach at Tonbridge rather than Ashford and then only 1tph.

Which service filled in the gaps and called at Headcorn, Pluckley etc?
 

Antman

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If Tramlink could be extended from Beckenham Junction along Bromley Road to Shortlands, up Swan Hill (possibly too steep?!), down the north bit of the high st via the market square, round towards Bromley North via Widmore Road, it might make sense to link the whole thing up.

No doubt that would be physically impossible and none of those locations are very far from bus links or more than ten minutes walk or so from Beckenham Junction or Shortlands, so may not be seen as worth doing.

Yes any Tramlink extension from Beckenham Junction to Bromley would be very difficult and as there is a rail link it probably wouldn't be deemed worthwhile.

The Bromley North to Grove Park shuttle has always been quiet when I've used it and of course there are two bus routes running almost parallel.
 

Southern

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Which service filled in the gaps and called at Headcorn, Pluckley etc?

1tph Ashford - Charing X calling at all stations to Sevenoaks, then Orpington, Petts Wood*, London Bridge and Waterloo East.

1tph Ashford - Charing X calling at Headcorn, Staplehurst, Paddock Wood, Tonbridge, Hildenborough, Sevenoaks, Orpington, London Bridge and Waterloo East.

Interesting that Petts Wood never had a fast service to/from London reinstated. To/from Tonbridge, the timings of those services more or less are still the same today, however both now operate to Tunbridge Wells.
 

ScotGG

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The situation at Lewisham is becoming so bad that TfL are now asking Lewisham Council to not allow new homes to be occupied until 2022. This is due to DLR crowding but the rail station is worse if anything.

http://www.fromthemurkydepths.co.uk/2017/12/06/revisions-made-to-lewisham-gateway-tower-plan/

Despite that other applications for towers are coming in, more massive schemes have just been approved and more are being built. Ideas like skipping more trains (though some have to of course) or closing St Johns seem unlikely given the increasing issue, but what can be done? More 12-car services for one but then what? As said before, the Bakerloo is at least 12 years away.
 

Bromley boy

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The situation at Lewisham is becoming so bad that TfL are now asking Lewisham Council to not allow new homes to be occupied until 2022. This is due to DLR crowding but the rail station is worse if anything.

http://www.fromthemurkydepths.co.uk/2017/12/06/revisions-made-to-lewisham-gateway-tower-plan/

Despite that other applications for towers are coming in, more massive schemes have just been approved and more are being built. Ideas like skipping more trains (though some have to of course) or closing St Johns seem unlikely given the increasing issue, but what can be done? More 12-car services for one but then what? As said before, the Bakerloo is at least 12 years away.

Apart from anything else the towers that have been built are architecturally horrendous - there doesn’t seem to be any limit as to what developers are allowed to throw up.

I’m surprised they didn’t develop some kind of big shopping centre/leisure complex near the station and do a section 106 agreement to require the developers to part fund improvements to the station, like a mini version of the Shard development where the developers helped fund the London Bridge improvements.
 

telstarbox

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Cycle Superhighway 4 (Deptford to Tower Bridge) and the proposed Rotherhithe bridge crossing will take some pressure off if they are approved.
 

NorthKent1989

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I agree. Give it to Govia. Then merge it with GTR.

Absolutely not, South Eastern has enough of its own issues without throwing GTR in the mix, it's bad enough GTR are going to be running the Rainham service alongside SE.
 

BluePenguin

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Milton Keynes to London is 87km, takes 33 minutes non stop and cheapest ticket price is £9.75

Ashford to London is 89km, takes 1 hour 15 minutes at best with 9 stops and the cheapest ticket price is a more considerable £15.25. 55 minutes is possible but there has not been a non stop service in years.

Even with only stopping at Tonbridge, Sevenoaks and London Bridge the service is in complete contrast to Milton Keynes

Where is the logic in this?

I wish I knew where it all went wrong. From Ashford you can travel to East Kent, North Kent, Brighton, Gatwick, plus France and beyond. Nobody seems to see it as important anymore - not even Eurostar likes to provide as many services anymore.
 

urpert

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If Tramlink could be extended from Beckenham Junction along Bromley Road to Shortlands, up Swan Hill (possibly too steep?!), down the north bit of the high st via the market square, round towards Bromley North via Widmore Road, it might make sense to link the whole thing up.

No doubt that would be physically impossible and none of those locations are very far from bus links or more than ten minutes walk or so from Beckenham Junction or Shortlands, so may not be seen as worth doing.

I’ve often fantasised about this, but it would rely on full on-street running along Albemarle Rd (probably not a huge difficulty) and then right the way through Shortlands (probably a huge difficulty as it’s already pretty busy, not to mention the issue of clearance for catenary under the railway bridge).
 

DynamicSpirit

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Milton Keynes to London is 87km, takes 33 minutes non stop and cheapest ticket price is £9.75

Ashford to London is 89km, takes 1 hour 15 minutes at best with 9 stops and the cheapest ticket price is a more considerable £15.25. 55 minutes is possible but there has not been a non stop service in years.

Even with only stopping at Tonbridge, Sevenoaks and London Bridge the service is in complete contrast to Milton Keynes

Where is the logic in this?

I think you'll find that Ashford to London takes 38 minutes, with a couple of 36 minute journeys in the peak. You're comparing the fastest (only) route from Milton Keynes with what is clearly intended as the slow route from Ashford - so hardly a fair comparison. I will grant you though that there is a discrepancy in the fare.
 

BluePenguin

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I think you'll find that Ashford to London takes 38 minutes, with a couple of 36 minute journeys in the peak. You're comparing the fastest (only) route from Milton Keynes with what is clearly intended as the slow route from Ashford - so hardly a fair comparison. I will grant you though that there is a discrepancy in the fare.
Yes I know that it is much quicker via HS1* but not on the mainline which it could be, that is what I was pointing out. The mainline was never intended as the slow route from Ashford at all - it was made into the slower route.

I am glad we both agree on the fare though. The £15.25 ticket I quoted isn't even for the high speed fare which is a lot more!

*To St Pancras. If the final destination is in the south such London Bride Waterloo East, Charing Cross, Cannon Street, Blackfriars or Victoria then the incredibly fast journey becomes slower and more costly as the underground and Thamelink are not free :(
 
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BluePenguin

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On a different but linked topic, had HS1 been constructed to south London instead of its roundabout route up through North Kent, under the Thames and through Essex, I wonder what the journey time would have been. My guess is 20 minutes, what do others think?
 

theageofthetra

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Yes any Tramlink extension from Beckenham Junction to Bromley would be very difficult and as there is a rail link it probably wouldn't be deemed worthwhile.

The Bromley North to Grove Park shuttle has always been quiet when I've used it and of course there are two bus routes running almost parallel.

Which require you to pay. The train provides a useful service for junkies & the unemployable to get Bromley JSA for free to get a fix in the high st then head back to Grove Park.

The future of this line is light rail then along Kentish Way to the college which has expanded to become almost a small uni.
 
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