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I was an idiot. Preparing myself for consequences with Govia Thameslink.

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Izzy38

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I reused my carnet and was caught. It was an utterly wrong thing to do and I completely hold my hands up that what I did was fraudulent and a crime. I am not trying to make excuses. I don't know what I was thinking, and the more I dwell on it the more mortified I feel. It didn't feel like a crime or theft when I did it, I don't know why, but now I do realise how grave it was. I have never done anything like this before and have used the railway lawfully for years.

It took place on a St Albans to London journey.

I have not yet received any letter from Govia but I am sure it is coming. I would like to prepare myself as best possible, recognising the need to both pay for my crime and recompense Govia, but also seeing if an out of court settlement is possible.

I've read through the various threads on similar issues and found them really helpful.

What I am hoping you might be able to advise on is how likely Govia are to settle out of court or whether I should prepare for an inevitable prosecution.

Many thanks.
 
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cuccir

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Hmm. Misuse of carnet tickets is taken very seriously, due to the significant potential for extended, repeated fare evasion that they represent. In partiuclar, Govia will be interested to know whether you have done this previously.

However, as you may have read on other threads, train companies are still often willing to respond to a well-written letter apologizing and offering to settle out of court for carnet misuse (eg this thread from 2016), particularly if this was a first offence.

So yes, you should prepare for a letter. Out of Court settlements are likely to be higher than for other ticketing issues, because of the potential for a higher fine and the relative complexity of investigation that they may want to carry out, but if this is a first offence and you apologize immediately, a settlement is still a reasonably likely outcome.
 

Izzy38

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Thank you Cuccir for taking the time to reply. I really appreciate it. This is my first offence and I haven't done anything like this before. I'm mortified at my own lack of judgement - I'm a parent and work in the charity sector. I don't know what I was thinking.

I will work on composing a heartfelt letter to be able to ammend and send once their letter arrives.

What kinds of investigations would they normally carry out in this case?
 

Haywain

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Before others start trying to find excuses for you (as they will), I think you deserve some credit for admitting what you did. Maintain the same tone with GTR and you won't find it getting near a court.
 

Izzy38

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Thank you Haywain. I think you are being kinder to me than I deserve.

I do have another question, having read up on this some more, if anyone can answer. Is there any likelihood or precedent that I might be charged with fraud rather than Railway Byelaw 20? I am wanting to look at all the posdible consequences to prepare myself for. Many thanks.
 

ainsworth74

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Did you alter the Carnet at all (i.e. change the date written on to it)?
 

najaB

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What I am hoping you might be able to advise on is how likely Govia are to settle out of court or whether I should prepare for an inevitable prosecution.
Prosecution is by no means inevitable though, as @cuccir pointed out, GTR will take a harder line than if it was a 'simple' ticket involved.

If you take full responsibility for your actions, demonstrate remorse about it and make a commitment to never let it re-occur then there is a fair chance they will settle the matter without involving the Court.
 

cuccir

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I do have another question, having read up on this some more, if anyone can answer. Is there any likelihood or precedent that I might be charged with fraud rather than Railway Byelaw 20? I am wanting to look at all the posdible consequences to prepare myself for. Many thanks.

Fraud charges are reserved for repeated misuse of tickets over a long period of time. Govia would only look into this if there's some sort of evidence that this has been happend; if they suspect this, they may ask you in for interview (which of course you wouldn't have to attend).

But we're getting way ahead of ourselves here. If you've been honest in your posts on this forum, then no you will not be charged with fraud, and the balance of probability is I think in favour of an out of court settlement.
 

Izzy38

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Did you alter the Carnet at all (i.e. change the date written on to it)?
Yes, I overwrote the date to change it from the previous day (when I had used it) to that day, to use it again. Such a monumentally wrong and stupid thing to do.
 

Izzy38

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Thank you Cuccir and NajaB for your replies. I have been honest with all I have said here, so hopefully there is a chance I can settle out of court. I think I'm reading up on the topic too much and panicking. There isn't a lot I can do until I receive the letter from Thameslink. Will this letter say what they are intending to prosecute me for?
 

ainsworth74

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Yes, I overwrote the date to change it from the previous day (when I had used it) to that day, to use it again. Such a monumentally wrong and stupid thing to do.

Thinking worst case scenario then I would say it is possible they would look to raise a prosecution for fraud. But, unless there is evidence to suggest that you've done this before and are a serial offender, it's probably unlikely and they would therefore stick with the more usual prosecution reasons via the Byelaws and the Regulation of Railways Act 1885 Section 5.

I have been honest with all I have said here, so hopefully there is a chance I can settle out of court. I think I'm reading up on the topic too much and panicking. There isn't a lot I can do until I receive the letter from Thameslink. Will this letter say what they are intending to prosecute me for?

Yes the letter will most likely state what they are intending to prosecute you for and ask for your version of events.

For a first time offender usually it is possible to arrange to settle of court (though expect this to cost potentially several hundred pounds) but, of course, this cannot be guaranteed.
 

Izzy38

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Thank you Ainsworth74, I really appreciate you replying. That is quite reassuring, although obviously, as you say, nothing guaranteed. I will see what the letter says when it comes, and whether it seems a good idea to get a solicitor involved at that point. Thanks again.
 

Haywain

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When you get the letter, come back here and you will get good advice on what to do next. However, you won't need a solicitor at that stage as you are clearly capable of taking and following advice.
 

1B85

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Yes, I overwrote the date to change it from the previous day (when I had used it) to that day, to use it again. Such a monumentally wrong and stupid thing to do.

Not used carnets before, but I take it from what I've read that you need to write the date on before using. Was this something like changing a five to a six, as in 05 December to 06 December?
 

trentside

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Not used carnets before, but I take it from what I've read that you need to write the date on before using. Was this something like changing a five to a six, as in 05 December to 06 December?

Yes, you date a box at the top of the ticket. Similar to how you use 3 in 7 (etc) rover tickets. There used to be a lot of fuss about FCC and the correct type of pen to use to ensure you weren’t wrongly accused of what the OP did. This is taking us off topic though!
 

Izzy38

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Thanks to all who offered me advice back in December. I have now had a letter for Govia which states:
- This letter is to inform you of our intention to take this case to the Magistrate's Court...
- Details of the offence: - entering a train for the purpose of travelling without a ticket entitling travel; and -altering a ticket with intent

Does this mean that they are looking to prosecute me under the Railway bylaws and not for fraud, which I understand can be the case when you alter a carnet ticket, even once? I suppose they can change their minds about what to prosecute me under if they decide to take it to court though.

I am going to write back immediately and send it by recorded post, saying more or less:
(1) yes I did this; (2) I am mortified that I did it, fully understand the gravity of it and the inconvenience and time it has caused Govia; (3) apologise profusely; (4) state that I have travelled regularly on this line for over ten years without ever doing anything like this before or since, and that I have never been involved in anything unlawful before and am active in my community through volunteering with schools and sports clubs (if this bit a good idea or not? It's true but I appreciate it's hardly relevant); (5) assure them that I will never do anything like this again; (6) say I would like to offer them a settlement if they are willing, covering their losses from my fare evasion, the costs they have incurred, and a voluntary contribution in light of my wrongdoing

If anyone is willing and has the time to look over my draft and suggest any ways I could express myself better, I'd be really grateful.

I also wonder what the next steps will be after I reply to them - is it likely I will be called to an interview or something like that?

Many thanks.
 

najaB

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Does this mean that they are looking to prosecute me under the Railway bylaws and not for fraud, which I understand can be the case when you alter a carnet ticket, even once? I suppose they can change their minds about what to prosecute me under if they decide to take it to court though.
It does sound like a Byelaw 18 and 20 prosecution, yes. Once the summons is issued they can't change their mind.
 

falcon

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Thanks to all who offered me advice back in December. I have now had a letter for Govia which states:
- This letter is to inform you of our intention to take this case to the Magistrate's Court...
- Details of the offence: - entering a train for the purpose of travelling without a ticket entitling travel; and -altering a ticket with intent

Does this mean that they are looking to prosecute me under the Railway bylaws and not for fraud, which I understand can be the case when you alter a carnet ticket, even once? I suppose they can change their minds about what to prosecute me under if they decide to take it to court though.

I am going to write back immediately and send it by recorded post, saying more or less:
(1) yes I did this; (2) I am mortified that I did it, fully understand the gravity of it and the inconvenience and time it has caused Govia; (3) apologise profusely; (4) state that I have travelled regularly on this line for over ten years without ever doing anything like this before or since, and that I have never been involved in anything unlawful before and am active in my community through volunteering with schools and sports clubs (if this bit a good idea or not? It's true but I appreciate it's hardly relevant); (5) assure them that I will never do anything like this again; (6) say I would like to offer them a settlement if they are willing, covering their losses from my fare evasion, the costs they have incurred, and a voluntary contribution in light of my wrongdoing

If anyone is willing and has the time to look over my draft and suggest any ways I could express myself better, I'd be really grateful.

I also wonder what the next steps will be after I reply to them - is it likely I will be called to an interview or something like that?

Many thanks.

Just be careful what you are doing you have rights guilty or not gulity.

Have you admitted that you changed the date on the carnet ticket to the ticket checking staff at the time or the TOC in any way? Did you state a reason for overwritting the date on the carnet to the member of ticket checking staff at the time or to the TOC in any way? If so what reason did you give for overwritting?
 

falcon

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It does sound like a Byelaw 18 and 20 prosecution, yes. Once the summons is issued they can't change their mind.
That's wrong unfortunately. Until six months has elapsed from the date of the offence the prosecution can lay any information and charge or sumons for the offence, that includes withdrawing a bye law offence and / or issuing a RORA offence or any other. Magistrates court act 1980 sec 127.

After the six months has elapsed they can still apply to the court to amend ( it becomes an amendment after six months as the information has already been laid) under section 123 of the MA 1980. However the Dyson J ruling applies. The Dyson J ruling in brief means the circumstance must be the same between the old and new offence and it must be in the interest of justice with emphasis on the defendant.
 

najaB

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That's wrong unfortunately. Until six months has elapsed from the date of the offence the prosecution can lay any information and charge or sumons for the offence, that includes withdrawing a bye law offence and / or issuing a RORA offence or any other.
The key word there is that they would need to withdraw any summons already issued and replace it with another. Which would require a new plea from the defendant, etc.
 

Izzy38

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Thanks Falcon and Najab, I am not entirely sure what this means for my situation. But I am thinking to go with the approach that as I did do it, I should admit to it. I did not admit to it to the ticket inspector at the time, which was stupid, but I panicked and felt mortified in front of other passengers. He took my details and the ticket, and said they would be in touch.
 

_toommm_

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Whole I'm not an expert at this, one recurring thing that is told on this forum is to never offer a particular amount to them e.g. never say 'can I pay £300 to bury this under the hatchet' or anything along those lines - the TOC will think you're trying to pay them off.

Instead, wait for them to produce numbers - it will seem incredibly high versus the cost of a single for the journey you undertook, but it also takes into consideration admin costs and that they'll never truly know how many times you did/didn't use your Carnet .
 

falcon

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No not at all. That's not correct.

This is the general principle of what happens. The prosecution issue information to the court about an offence and the court agrees to hear the case (that is all done by admin). The court issued the summons (it's the prosecution who draw it up) The information has to be laid (given) to the court within six months.That is the request to put the matter before the court.

That summons to attend court is then sent to the defendant that he did a bye law offence or RORA or whatever.

The prosecution if they so wish can then write to the defendant and say they are not going to offer any evidence on the offence that the original summons has been drawn up on and that is the end of the matter the defendant is of the hook. Unless.

As long as six months from date of offence has not elapsed the prosection can still lay any informations before tha court IE change from bye law to RORA or vise versa. Then the defendant would recieve a summons for those new offences. Even though the original summons had been withdrawn.

This is before anyone arrives at court so a plea is not required at all.

So a sumons can most definitely be changed/ withdrawn or ammended before attendance at court.

One is not out of the woods until six months from the date of the offence has elapsed. But remember that it has been know for information to be laid within the six month limit and the defendant to recieve the summons on the 7th month. As long as the info is laid within six months that's it.
 

falcon

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Thanks Falcon and Najab, I am not entirely sure what this means for my situation. But I am thinking to go with the approach that as I did do it, I should admit to it. I did not admit to it to the ticket inspector at the time, which was stupid, but I panicked and felt mortified in front of other passengers. He took my details and the ticket, and said they would be in touch.
Based on what you have said. I am reasonably confident a solicitor would say to you that this is what we call a "no comment" situation.
Have you ever heard these words " you do not have to say anything but it may harm your defence if you do not mentioned when questioned something which later rely on in court".
The route of those words are a warning from the old Judges rules ( amended into PACE). It means you do not have to give evidence that will convict yourself. The added on bit from 1988 means if you have a defence state it or run the risk of a court wondering why you did not say so at the time(not relevant to you)

I cannot remember the exact philosophy of the old judges rules which were drafted to protect the accused. But the judges words were along these lines " it must feel bad to a man to be convicted, but to be convicted by his own words even worse"
 

najaB

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This is before anyone arrives at court so a plea is not required at all.
Ermm... the summons requires the accused to indicate how they intend to plea. If they have already replied when the summons is withdrawn then they will have to indicate again their plea intention.
 

Puffing Devil

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Pleas are usually made in court at the first appearance. Even then, there may be no plea entered. Guilty pleas by letter may be taken for minor matters and us very common for motoring offences.
 
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