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Has the NRM finally lost the plot? (Spacecraft going on display)

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alexl92

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That said, how many railway enthusiasts know what a "Key Token machine" off the top of their heads? Or where Poppleton station is?

How nice slagging off a volunteer at the museum because they don't know everything about railways.

Can’t blame the volunteer for not knowing everythign about Railways by surely someone who lives, works or volunteers in York should know where Poppleton is?
 
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Bedpan

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I think that the volunteers travel from far and wide and so I wouldn't criticise somebody who comes up from the south once a week if they didn't know where Poppleton was. I must admit that I didn't know it was near York, only that it wasn't in the southern half of England.
 

mushroomchow

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Around about 14 years ago I acquired an incomplete Tyers Key Token machine in an auction. Wanting to get an idea and photos of an intact one, I popped round to the NRM. I asked one of the well scrubbed and smartly dressed "Explainers" (I think that's what they were called) if it would be possible to get a look inside one of their Key Token machines. "Our what ?" came the reply. "The big red things like letter boxes" "Oh is that what they are ?". "Yes, they use them at Poppleton station, here's a photo". "Where's Poppleton ?" (it's a couple of miles outside York). I gave up.

This, like most of the gripes on this thread, vastly overestimates the job of the public face of the NRM, which is to explain to people who genuinely don't have a clue about anything railway related beyond the Flying Scotsman and maybe, at a push, Rocket or the HST, the story of our railways in simple terms. Their job is to pique that interest, especially in youth, to bring through the next generation of railway enthusiasts and heritage sector volunteers, without which we would already be seeing the industry collapse en-masse and most certainly will in future without new blood. And I think they do that job remarkably well.

I think we get a bit too on our high-horses here sometimes. The NRM, like it or not, is thriving at the moment after some shaky years in which they failed to cater to the general public in an accessible manner. They've got enough financial confidence now to finally expand their national reach with the Leicester Museum, albeit with the help of the Heritage Lottery Fund. To be brutally honest, that wasn't paid for by folks requiring the inner workings of a Tyers Key Token machine, but by those feet through the door and new visitors which are the museum's lifeblood.

It's a commercial enterprise tied around a heritage base, which seperates it from the general heritage railway movement - it's there to make money for exhibit restoration, keep its collection at the very least safe and where possible return it to operation to support the wider industry, and to inspire the young to become railway volunteers or national network employees.

Besides, as my initial point notes, I think you were asking the wrong people. It's the backroom staff and those actually involved with restoration of exhibits and collection items that could tell you about the Token machine. Try contacting the actual research department on 01904 611112, or at [email protected]

Finally, aside from all this, it doesn't really bother me if they've put a little space aside for a spacecraft. Though it would have been good of them to add a side panel explaining the role of railways in space travel - for example, the railway at the Baikonur Cosmodrome in Kazakhstan, which uses trains to pull the various bits of equipment into place. Perhaps those so bothered by it could make such a suggestion to the NRM?
 

DarloRich

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and here comes the usual over the top spotter wibble..........................

It is almost as if people have missed that the NRM is part of the Science Museum Group. Science. You know that Science stuff has quite a bit to do with going into space. It is like people also missed how popular the book of Tim Peake's adventures in space was last Christmas. Imagine if a group of Museums (based on science) shared parts of their collection to try and drum up a bit of trade or cross visitation.

BTW It must really grind your gears to find locomotives in the science museum in London!

The NRM should have a railway enthusiast at the helm, not an executive or CEO.

Do you really think that? Really?
 
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Smethwickian

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A race to the bottom.

Who can sell the most fluffy gonks to kids and entertain them with shallow, superficial interactive displays.

Many museums have long since ceased to be places of knowledge and learning, curated by experts in their particular field. .
I used to visit the free Birmingham Museum of Science and Industry all the time when a youngster. Now it's the glitzy Thinktank, charges a fortune and has dumped most historic artefacts and machines in favour of interactive displays - like we don't all spend enough time staring at screens.
 

MarkyT

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I'm not worried at all about a single special non rail but science related touring exhibit that may bring an awful lot of publicity and many additional visitors to voluntarily pay their entrance contribution and purchase things in the cafe and shop as well as experience something of rail history that they may otherwise have not seen. The NRM represents a good quality, easily accessible venue for such an exhibit in the north east and a spacecraft does not 'compete' with railway interest at all in the same way (say) a permanent exhibition on the development of motorways or road coaches would. One 'diverse' exhibit does not constitute a wholesale conversion to a Science Museum - North. Heritage railways often host all kinds of events to draw the punters in throughout the year. Such an organisation near me typically hosts several classic road vehicle rallies over the year for instance. These I enjoy but personally I don't like the '1940s' events with their wartime themes and uniforms and firearms. I reserve my greatest disdain for the Thomas days however, with their deafening TV series music in the cafe (which they are contractually obliged to play at such a volume I was told), and the inane storyline stunts they are forced to perform etc. I accept these events are sure moneyspinners however but steer well clear on those days myself. Give me a spacecraft over Thomas anyday!
 

IanXC

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For me its not so much about this specific exhibit going on show, but that this represents a long term trend which for me has undermined the place the NRM used to have in preserving our railway heritage.

I guess in many ways it is a reaction to the financial circumstances they find themselves in, however I would suggest that their being part of the Science Museum Group and it would seem increasingly subservient to the Science Museum, is diluting their purpose, resulting in the mass dumbing down of the material they exhibit. The net result of that, I believe is that those of us who would visit more often, and who might be inclined to donate to the museum's cause, are increasingly alienated and reluctant to even visit.

In my opinion the Museum has followed a path of being reliant on government grants and chasing visitor numbers, this has almost inevitably caused it to become more distant from what should be its core group of supporters, and thus it has become yet more reliant on said grants.
 

Pinza-C55

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This, like most of the gripes on this thread, vastly overestimates the job of the public face of the NRM, which is to explain to people who genuinely don't have a clue about anything railway related beyond the Flying Scotsman and maybe, at a push, Rocket or the HST, the story of our railways in simple terms. Their job is to pique that interest, especially in youth, to bring through the next generation of railway enthusiasts and heritage sector volunteers, without which we would already be seeing the industry collapse en-masse and most certainly will in future without new blood. And I think they do that job remarkably well.

I think we get a bit too on our high-horses here sometimes. The NRM, like it or not, is thriving at the moment after some shaky years in which they failed to cater to the general public in an accessible manner. They've got enough financial confidence now to finally expand their national reach with the Leicester Museum, albeit with the help of the Heritage Lottery Fund. To be brutally honest, that wasn't paid for by folks requiring the inner workings of a Tyers Key Token machine, but by those feet through the door and new visitors which are the museum's lifeblood.

It's a commercial enterprise tied around a heritage base, which seperates it from the general heritage railway movement - it's there to make money for exhibit restoration, keep its collection at the very least safe and where possible return it to operation to support the wider industry, and to inspire the young to become railway volunteers or national network employees.

Besides, as my initial point notes, I think you were asking the wrong people. It's the backroom staff and those actually involved with restoration of exhibits and collection items that could tell you about the Token machine. Try contacting the actual research department on 01904 611112, or at [email protected]

Finally, aside from all this, it doesn't really bother me if they've put a little space aside for a spacecraft. Though it would have been good of them to add a side panel explaining the role of railways in space travel - for example, the railway at the Baikonur Cosmodrome in Kazakhstan, which uses trains to pull the various bits of equipment into place. Perhaps those so bothered by it could make such a suggestion to the NRM?

That's your opinion. In my opinion I would expect the the NRM staff to be interested in the exhibits in their charge and to possibly have some curiosity about them. I would at least expect them to have an idea what those big red things were next to the signalling exhibit. If they have no such knowledge, how do I know whether they have any knowledge about anything other than the price of a cup of coffee at the cafe or the latest Thomas toys on sale ? I used to know a senior figure in the NRM staff and he was constantly moaning to me about the "dumbing down" of the NRM , and that was 12 years ago.
 

Pinza-C55

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How nice slagging off a volunteer at the museum because they don't know everything about railways.

He wasn't a volunteer. He was a uniformed and paid member of staff who was supposed to be able to explain exhibits to visitors.
 

Pinza-C55

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That said, how many railway enthusiasts know what a "Key Token machine" off the top of their heads? Or where Poppleton station is?

I would expect that 99% of Yorkies know where Poppleton is , let alone railway enthusiasts. It's an affluent suburb of York.
 

Bevan Price

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We need to remember that museums and heritage railways cannot survive on just the income derived from dedicated railway enthusiats. They need to attract lots of visitors who may only have a marginal interest in railways. If space (or other) exhibits bring additional visitors, that is a necessary and unavoidable fact. And remember, it is free to enter NRM. They rely on donation, and sales of souvenirs, food, etc., to help pay their staff & other costs.

I would add that I, too, am uneasy about the disposal of some assets, and hope that the sale contracts contained provisions that would prevent such assests being subsequently scrapped or sent overseas.
 

DarloRich

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For me its not so much about this specific exhibit going on show, but that this represents a long term trend which for me has undermined the place the NRM used to have in preserving our railway heritage.

I guess in many ways it is a reaction to the financial circumstances they find themselves in, however I would suggest that their being part of the Science Museum Group and it would seem increasingly subservient to the Science Museum, is diluting their purpose, resulting in the mass dumbing down of the material they exhibit. The net result of that, I believe is that those of us who would visit more often, and who might be inclined to donate to the museum's cause, are increasingly alienated and reluctant to even visit.

In my opinion the Museum has followed a path of being reliant on government grants and chasing visitor numbers, this has almost inevitably caused it to become more distant from what should be its core group of supporters, and thus it has become yet more reliant on said grants.

I am sorry but this post shows the disconnect with many of the people here and the real world. The museum will fail utterly if it targets the boring spotter market at the exclusion of casual family groups. I suspect that was part of the problem in the past.

That's your opinion. In my opinion I would expect the the NRM staff to be interested in the exhibits in their charge and to possibly have some curiosity about them. I would at least expect them to have an idea what those big red things were next to the signalling exhibit. If they have no such knowledge, how do I know whether they have any knowledge about anything other than the price of a cup of coffee at the cafe or the latest Thomas toys on sale ? I used to know a senior figure in the NRM staff and he was constantly moaning to me about the "dumbing down" of the NRM , and that was 12 years ago.

A very silly post. Very silly indeed. You seem to be unable to understand how someone might not have an encyclopedic knowledge of every item in the national railway museum collection!

He wasn't a volunteer. He was a uniformed and paid member of staff who was supposed to be able to explain exhibits to visitors.

I suspect he will have been a volunteer but don't let that stop you weighing into them for having a less than perfect knowledge of absolute block working equipment or whatever.

We need to remember that museums and heritage railways cannot survive on just the income derived from dedicated railway enthusiats. They need to attract lots of visitors who may only have a marginal interest in railways. If space (or other) exhibits bring additional visitors, that is a necessary and unavoidable fact. And remember, it is free to enter NRM. They rely on donation, and sales of souvenirs, food, etc., to help pay their staff & other costs.

Exactly! Adapt for close. Lets not forget that recently the NRM proposed getting rid of many exhibits in the great hall and going for a much more interactive layout. Imagine the froth!
 
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Flying Phil

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I agree with Darlo about this - The NRM must appeal to the broadest possible market and yet it is still able retain, at its core, the detailed, accurate, story of railways.
 

mushroomchow

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That's your opinion. In my opinion I would expect the the NRM staff to be interested in the exhibits in their charge and to possibly have some curiosity about them. I would at least expect them to have an idea what those big red things were next to the signalling exhibit. If they have no such knowledge, how do I know whether they have any knowledge about anything other than the price of a cup of coffee at the cafe or the latest Thomas toys on sale ? I used to know a senior figure in the NRM staff and he was constantly moaning to me about the "dumbing down" of the NRM , and that was 12 years ago.

But again, you're missing the point - their job is to explain the railways to visitors who know very little about them. To pique an interest. The average man off the street doesn't walk into the NRM and ask for a cross-sectional explanation of a token machine.

You can keep pushing the point about "dumbing down" but, as your friend well knows and as I explained before you glossed over the point, there are plenty of people back-doors in the research department who DO know those things, and would be happy to help if you took the time to ask. Most of the front of shop staff are locals and students who just want a job and probably have to learn a lot of what they do know from scratch. They're there to enthuse kids and spark an interest, which then blossoms into those kids becoming the enthusiasts of tomorrow, and my subjective view is that they do that really well in the circumstances. But I think you're being incredibly unfair and disingenuous to suggest that they know nothing about railways just because they didn't know anything about your incredibly niche piece of railwayana, and because a workforce which, especially in the case of students, probably doesn't know the area as well as yourself, might not know where Poppleton is. It's a bit pathetic, to be honest.

It would be wonderful to have nothing but enthusiasts running the public face of the place, but unless a great number upped sticks, moved to York, applied for the positions and were successful based not only on their knowledge of railways but also their people skills, it's simply not happening. There are plenty of heritage railways in every nook and cranny of this nation for somebody who wants to potter about and grumble about how everything was better back in their day. Let the "mainstream punters" have their museum and - who knows? - maybe in a couple of decades when those railways run by grumpy old sods who chastise people for not knowing what a token machine is are on their last legs and short of volunteers and visitors, some new blood might come through to keep them alive.

Can't believe I'm saying this to somebody I'm guessing is middle-aged at youngest, but grow up.
 

A0wen

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I used to visit the free Birmingham Museum of Science and Industry all the time when a youngster. Now it's the glitzy Thinktank, charges a fortune and has dumped most historic artefacts and machines in favour of interactive displays - like we don't all spend enough time staring at screens.

Except, as the parent of two children - I can tell you Think Tank is brilliant. Kids love it, they learn from going around it, they enjoy the exhibits, making things work all of that.

If you want / like traditional 'stuffed and mounted' museums, then fine - but they don't attract people any longer and the people they do attract aren't the ones who are inclined to put their hands in their pockets to make them viable.

This argument is the same one about Heritage Railways running Thomas Days or Santa Specials or any other kids TV character days. I recall some years back chatting to a volunteer at one such railway and he very openly said the railway had more visitors and made more money with those family events than any number of 'gala' days. The reason? Because families spend money, whereas the 'rivet counters' don't.

Too many of the rivet counters will turn up only to take pictures. Might begrudgingly buy a cup of tea and biscuit in the cafe - bemoaning the cost of it - and then head off to the local pub for a pint. The railway in question has made about £ 1 out of such people yet it will have cost hundreds if not thousands to put on the gala.

Whereas the family will want to ride, the kids will want to meet whichever characters are out and about, they will buy lunch or snacks in the cafe and almost certainly spend in the gift shop - and best of all, if they have an enjoyable day out, they'll tell their friends about it or go back to another event.

I'm with DarloRich on this - if you don't attract either families, or people who are prepared to spend money when visiting, frankly a museum will fail.
 

mushroomchow

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I'd also remind folks that the biggest money spinners for railways these days tend to be the ones where the trains themselves take a back seat.

Speaking locally, the big events at the GCR are the Santa Specials, World War II weekend, Bonfire Night, Classic Car rallies and increasingly Halloween. The railway has especially diversified it's "kids" offering following HIT Entertainment's increasingly daft demands meaning they don't even run Day Out With Thomas events anymore, so by the standards of this thread it's one of the worst offenders for "losing the plot" railway-wise in attracting the general public. They tried an Ivor The Engine day once, but nobody came, so they don't have a specific "trains for kids" day anymore, just TV characters like Paw Patrol and Peppa Pig... on a train.

However, the profits from those "non-enthusiast" events help pay for the Galas to take place which, due to the number of engines in service and the amount of non-passenger trains run, are less profitable and are often at risk of running at a loss. And it's difficult to dispute that the GCR's galas are amongst the most popular, authentic and stirring examples of an event for the "rivet counter" crowd in the country - but they're still economically marginal and all made possible by kids coming to see Peppa Pig and carve pumpkins. ;)

A bit of a tangent, granted, and a sense of deja-vu from the "Economics of Steam Operation" thread, but it comes back to the original point which is that the heritage railway sector - including the NRM - has to diversify to stay viable. Those darned punters off the street, with their blank stares at token boxes and penchant for Thomas, pay for your weekend bashes every few months and the mainline specials which run on the margins of profitability, but which many of us turn up to photograph without ever riding.
 

Pinza-C55

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A very silly post. Very silly indeed. You seem to be unable to understand how someone might not have an encyclopedic knowledge of every item in the national railway museum collection!
I suspect he will have been a volunteer but don't let that stop you weighing into them for having a less than perfect knowledge of absolute block working equipment or whatever

Calling it a "silly post" in no way addresses it. My point is that paid members of staff should should have at least some idea of the items on display which amounts to more than some facts about the Mallard memorised from a script - in my opinion, because this is all about opinions. As I said, at the time I had a friend who was a senior member of staff and one of the things he moaned about was the removal of the section of track and point mechanisms in the Great Hall because they wanted to extend the cafe area into it. But I suppose you are not bothered about track displays because they only appeal to signalling nerds ?
"I suspect he will have been a volunteer " You are absolutely wrong. Despite this being about 13 years ago, I can remember he was in full uniform with an Explainer badge and he said he was from South Africa. But don't let the facts stand in the way of your suspicions.
If you'd like even more information to disregard, I didn't even want an explanation of the key token machines , simply to get one open so I could take photos of the inside. But he couldn't find who had the key.
 

Pinza-C55

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But again, you're missing the point - their job is to explain the railways to visitors who know very little about them. To pique an interest. The average man off the street doesn't walk into the NRM and ask for a cross-sectional explanation of a token machine.
Can't believe I'm saying this to somebody I'm guessing is middle-aged at youngest, but grow up.

No he doesn't. But if it is standing there unlabelled he might be curious to know what it is and does, and one might expect a member of staff to know what it is at least.
"Can't believe I'm saying this to somebody I'm guessing is middle-aged at youngest, but grow up."
I turn 59 next month. I don't know how old you are, nor do I care. I simply post my opinions here but sadly yours is the kind of intemperate response which often makes it a depressing experience. However old you are, there is still time for you to learn that people can have different opinions to you on subjects like this, which are frankly trivial, and you don't need to lose your temper as a result.
 

mushroomchow

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No he doesn't. But if it is standing there unlabelled he might be curious to know what it is and does, and one might expect a member of staff to know what it is at least.
"Can't believe I'm saying this to somebody I'm guessing is middle-aged at youngest, but grow up."
I turn 59 next month. I don't know how old you are, nor do I care. I simply post my opinions here but sadly yours is the kind of intemperate response which often makes it a depressing experience. However old you are, there is still time for you to learn that people can have different opinions to you on subjects like this, which are frankly trivial, and you don't need to lose your temper as a result.

Sounds like we're going to have to agree to disagree, then. I don't consider my defence of the staff of the NRM "intemperate" in the way that myself and fellow posters consider your frankly daft vendetta against front of house staff just doing their job "intemperate". You've a right to your opinion, but I've just as much right to call it out for what it is - grumbling about a problem that stems from you being too stubborn to ask around and find the right people for your query. I can only speak for myself, but I'd hope fellow posters would back me up there. :|

I've volunteered at a heritage railway for 11 years now, and even I couldn't tell you how a token box works. It's just not my area. Doesn't mean I'm not as passionate about railways as the next enthusiast, though. :s

I'd still vouch that you were probably the first and last person to go through those doors and ask an explainer about Poppleton Token Machine, though. Unless users of this forum read this thread and decide to go on the wind-up and all ask when visiting. :lol:

PS: Thought I'd take the liberty of un-bolding your comments. There's no need to shout. ;)
 

Spamcan81

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Sounds like we're going to have to agree to disagree, then. I don't consider my defence of the staff of the NRM "intemperate" in the way that myself and fellow posters consider your frankly daft vendetta against front of house staff just doing their job "intemperate". You've a right to your opinion, but I've just as much right to call it out for what it is - grumbling about a problem that stems from you being too stubborn to ask around and find the right people for your query. I can only speak for myself, but I'd hope fellow posters would back me up there. :|

I've volunteered at a heritage railway for 11 years now, and even I couldn't tell you how a token box works. It's just not my area. Doesn't mean I'm not as passionate about railways as the next enthusiast, though. :s

I'd still vouch that you were probably the first and last person to go through those doors and ask an explainer about Poppleton Token Machine, though. Unless users of this forum read this thread and decide to go on the wind-up and all ask when visiting. :lol:

PS: Thought I'd take the liberty of un-bolding your comments. There's no need to shout. ;)

You've got my support. I think the gripe about the token machine is very ill considered. Not even a railway professional will know everything about railways and I doubt an Explainer's remit is to know everything about railways either as I'd wager it's impossible for them to have a deep knowledge about the entire NRM collection.
 

DarloRich

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Calling it a "silly post" in no way addresses it. My point is that paid members of staff should should have at least some idea of the items on display which amounts to more than some facts about the Mallard memorised from a script - in my opinion, because this is all about opinions. As I said, at the time

No problem with opinions - just be prepared for them to be challenged. Lets be honest: Most people visiting the museum are not going to ask about some arcane token block item. They are going to be small children asking about Mallard. Surely you can see how training might be focused on the more likely option.

The NRM mission statement is : to enable people to explore the story of railways and how they fit into that story. Through life-enhancing experiences, visitors will gain greater appreciation of railways as a form of transport through an exciting, educational and memorable series of complementary galleries, interactive, web and learning experiences, telling the story of railways past, present and future.

They seem to do that well. I get that the level of detail isnt what your hard core spotter wants but they are not the target audience. Real people off the street are the target and the museum attracts them in large numbers. It needs their money to stay open. It offers them a fun and free day out looking at trains, being able to touch them historic items, climb on them, learn about what they did and how they did it and doing so at the right level for a casual visitor, at least in my opinion. ( which you are most welcome to attack)

I had a friend who was a senior member of staff and one of the things he moaned about was the removal of the section of track and point mechanisms in the Great Hall because they wanted to extend the cafe area into it. But I suppose you are not bothered about track displays because they only appeal to signalling nerds ?

You are right - I am not bothered about that. Why? because it wont appeal to the target audience. Build me that point mechanism into a hands on display about railway signalling that lets people pull the levers and see something happen, explain why it is important and what happens if you get it wrong and we might be on to something. If it doesn't appeal to the target audience or offer them a compelling story then it goes. Simple. What does a dull bit of track tell people with no interest in trains? What story is it telling them in a compelling, exciting or immersive manner? How does that track link to the story of one of the gems of the collection that people DO want to see? Most family groups want to go to the museum because it is wet out, the museum is free and little Tommy loves Thomas? So unless your signalling neds will replace the money (and then some) from casual family groups they aren't worth bothering with if we want a museum that continues into the future.

You seem to want a museum that preserves one of everything and then has tweedy spotters who drone on in excruciating detail about some point of massive dullness which seems entirely designed to drive away casual visitors of any kind and allow you to have the place to yourself. The museum will not last long like that. I would rather they stayed open and most importantly stayed free of charge.

"I suspect he will have been a volunteer " You are absolutely wrong. Despite this being about 13 years ago, I can remember he was in full uniform with an Explainer badge and he said he was from South Africa. But don't let the facts stand in the way of your suspicions.

Oh I didn't know he had a badge. That certainly makes him full time! In any event surely his job is to explain the key items of the collection to casual visitors and especially bring to life the interesting stories around, say, Mallard and Flying Scotsman. Most people visiting the museum will ask questions about those key items and being prepared to answer them and engage especially young visitors in those stories is surely the best way to equip staff ( full time or otherwise) to deal with the public. Is that not obvious?

If you'd like even more information to disregard, I didn't even want an explanation of the key token machines , simply to get one open so I could take photos of the inside. But he couldn't find who had the key.

Ring ahead next time and ask them to set something up. They tend to be fairly accommodating. You might well get access to the right member of staff with the detailed knowledge you want and have a really good day out.

You've a right to your opinion, but I've just as much right to call it out for what it is - grumbling about a problem that stems from you being too stubborn to ask around and find the right people for your query. I can only speak for myself, but I'd hope fellow posters would back me up there.

You have my support. There is a clear difference between the real world and the world of the enthusiast. Some seem unable to cross that divide.

You've got my support. I think the gripe about the token machine is very ill considered. Not even a railway professional will know everything about railways and I doubt an Explainer's remit is to know everything about railways either as I'd wager it's impossible for them to have a deep knowledge about the entire NRM collection.

You are, of course, correct, but enthusiasts DO have that knowledge which they develop at the expense of almost everything else and struggle to understand why others don't take it that seriously. That isn't just train people but cars, planes, records, books etc
 

Iskra

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Visited the NRM today- absolutely fantastic. The volunteers I spoke to were fantastic, one was ridiculously knowledgeable about all things steam, explaining how injectors work- he also let me sit in the drivers seat of Mallard :) Even the younger volunteers were knowledgeable and I enjoyed a talk on the royal carriages and the turntable demo. It’s also good to see plenty of preserved diesel and electric engines in there too.

10/10
 

Bwlch y Groes

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There's a few different issues here. This has ended up being a really long post, though, so apologies

In particular I feel like there's a bit of strawmanning going on here about what exactly the "ordinary" punters want from a museum. If you're going to reject the "elitist" view that a museum should be prepared as "objectively" good in terms of its accuracy and representation even if that makes it totally boring to most visitors, equally you then can't exactly turn around and argue the complete opposite - i.e. that it should be totally geared towards what people who don't know anything about trains want to see - because that too is elitist in assuming what people want to learn about. Both perspectives are ultimately patrician in their outlook

But then I don't think anyone's arguing that it should be one extreme or the other. I'd like to think most people here would agree a compromise is necessary - it's about where the ideal compromise lies. It's still an elitist view, but I tend to go along with the idea that mainstream museums should cater for a wide range of people while at the same time remaining a museum. Too many museums of this nature are going down the "family-orientated" route, spending a load of money turning themselves into glorified indoor theme parks with lots of "interactive" exhibits which are meant to encourage learning for kids

I went to another SMG museum recently, formerly the National Media Museum but now the National Science and Media Museum (a name change which itself is indicative). A lot of it is this kind of "hands-on" whizz-bang stuff about science - in fact there were kids school trips there when I was there. As an adult looking to learn about the history of the media, I was a bit disappointed. The NRM is of course going down a similar route, with fewer locos on display and more space given over to interactive sections

As someone who grew up as this kind of interactive museum emerged, going to places like Techniquest when I was a kid (not strictly a museum but broadly similar to how museums are going), I'm sceptical about whether the theories behind this type of learning actually work. Are kids really learning, or are they just having fun pushing all the buttons? I remember having fun in Techniquest as a kid, running around playing with exhibits, but did I learn anything? I doubt it. Would I be cynical to think that this may primarily be about creating an easy time for the adults, letting the kids off the leash to play in a safe indoor environment while also giving them the credibility of having taken them to a museum, even if they don't actually learn much? Possibly, but there may also be a grain of truth in it

Either way, it's this idea that kids (or indeed adults) can only learn through "dumbed down" stuff that I'm not convinced by - and that's much wider than museums. I learned about sport from watching sports coverage made by adults, not the really poor attempts at providing CBBC "commentary" on F1 or football. In the same way, I learned about railways from going to the old school NRM as a kid, or watching railway videos for adults, or just riding on the things and experiencing it. For me the best part of the NRM is the balcony over York station, because it's the only place you get to see a train actually do what it's meant to do. Beyond that, the other important parts are the Bullet Train and the Pullman Mark 2, because those are actually about sitting on a train. You don't need to dumb it down - have higher expectations of your visitors. They will meet them, because people aren't stupid

But anyway, I also ought to defend the NRM. They are absolutely skint. They've cut back massively on staff, and there's now comparatively very little on display there as it's all been shared around various different places. It's a far cry from when I was there as an 11-year-old in 2002 when the Great Hall was full of locos. The reason they offer things like getting in Mallard's cab now is, to paraphase what a member of NRM staff told me last year, "to provide a USP to the museum now that half the engines have been shipped out". It doesn't feel like a well-organised museum to me. I went to the HST anniversary event there which was very popular but it wasn't even promoted - it was almost as if the museum was embarrassed to be catering to enthusiasts even if it meant more people through the door! The whole issue of de-accessioning items in the NC, while probably not the greatest crime to rail history in the grand scheme of things, is more of a problem because of what it represents in the NRM as a whole. I suspect it'll keep happening

That said, I don't think that's the NRM's fault. Our museums are under threat - the government is cutting the subsidies to them just like they are to the railways, and I believe this is part of a wider plan to eventually encourage museums to go back to entry charges if they are left long enough to it (as part of the classic Tory principle that those who use it should pay for it). If anything, we should support the NRM as a matter of principle

That said, I don't think the Soyuz capsule being there is a good idea - in the same way the big wheel wasn't. The reason for this is the NRM will always have a fairly fixed audience regardless of how it's set up - it's one of those things which you're either interested in or you're not. There's no point catering for people who don't want to go there, because even if they do end up going there (e.g. as part of a family or school trip), you need that baseline enthusiasm to engage with something. You can make it as plain and accessible as you like but if people don't care, they're not going to engage with it. Putting a spacecraft on display there to get a few more people in there who wouldn't otherwise have gone in as a short-term boost is purely a cynical move to inflate the figures, and I don't think it really proves anything. It just means you get stuck in a cycle of having to do this again and again to keep the figures up

But then we live in a world where numbers are all important and mean far more than they should, because it's all about meeting targets and self-preservation. I get why it's happening. I just don't think it's the right strategy
 
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Iskra

Established Member
Joined
11 Jun 2014
Messages
7,787
Location
West Riding
There's a few different issues here. This has ended up being a really long post, though, so apologies

In particular I feel like there's a bit of strawmanning going on here about what exactly the "ordinary" punters want from a museum. If you're going to reject the "elitist" view that a museum should be prepared as "objectively" good in terms of its accuracy and representation even if that makes it totally boring to most visitors, equally you then can't exactly turn around and argue the complete opposite - i.e. that it should be totally geared towards what people who don't know anything about trains want to see - because that too is elitist in assuming what people want to learn about. Both perspectives are ultimately patrician in their outlook

But then I don't think anyone's arguing that it should be one extreme or the other. I'd like to think most people here would agree a compromise is necessary - it's about where the ideal compromise lies. It's still an elitist view, but I tend to go along with the idea that mainstream museums should cater for a wide range of people while at the same time remaining a museum. Too many museums of this nature are going down the "family-orientated" route, spending a load of money turning themselves into glorified indoor theme parks with lots of "interactive" exhibits which are meant to encourage learning for kids

I went to another SMG museum recently, formerly the National Media Museum but now the National Science and Media Museum (a name change which itself is indicative). A lot of it is this kind of "hands-on" whizz-bang stuff about science - in fact there were kids school trips there when I was there. As an adult looking to learn about the history of the media, I was a bit disappointed. The NRM is of course going down a similar route, with fewer locos on display and more space given over to interactive sections

As someone who grew up as this kind of interactive museum emerged, going to places like Techniquest when I was a kid (not strictly a museum but broadly similar to how museums are going), I'm sceptical about whether the theories behind this type of learning actually work. Are kids really learning, or are they just having fun pushing all the buttons? I remember having fun in Techniquest as a kid, running around playing with exhibits, but did I learn anything? I doubt it. Would I be cynical to think that this may primarily be about creating an easy time for the adults, letting the kids off the leash to play in a safe indoor environment while also giving them the credibility of having taken them to a museum, even if they don't actually learn much? Possibly, but there may also be a grain of truth in it

Either way, it's this idea that kids (or indeed adults) can only learn through "dumbed down" stuff that I'm not convinced by - and that's much wider than museums. I learned about sport from watching sports coverage made by adults, not the really poor attempts at providing CBBC "commentary" on F1 or football. In the same way, I learned about railways from going to the old school NRM as a kid, or watching railway videos for adults, or just riding on the things and experiencing it. For me the best part of the NRM is the balcony over York station, because it's the only place you get to see a train actually do what it's meant to do. Beyond that, the other important parts are the Bullet Train and the Pullman Mark 2, because those are actually about sitting on a train. You don't need to dumb it down - have higher expectations of your visitors. They will meet them, because people aren't stupid

But anyway, I also ought to defend the NRM. They are absolutely skint. They've cut back massively on staff, and there's now comparatively very little on display there as it's all been shared around various different places. It's a far cry from when I was there as an 11-year-old in 2002 when the Great Hall was full of locos. The reason they offer things like getting in Mallard's cab now is, to paraphase what a member of NRM staff told me last year, "to provide a USP to the museum now that half the engines have been shipped out". It doesn't feel like a well-organised museum to me. I went to the HST anniversary event there which was very popular but it wasn't even promoted - it was almost as if the museum was embarrassed to be catering to enthusiasts even if it meant more people through the door! The whole issue of de-accessioning items in the NC, while probably not the greatest crime to rail history in the grand scheme of things, is more of a problem because of what it represents in the NRM as a whole. I suspect it'll keep happening

That said, I don't think that's the NRM's fault. Our museums are under threat - the government is cutting the subsidies to them just like they are to the railways, and I believe this is part of a wider plan to eventually encourage museums to go back to entry charges if they are left long enough to it (as part of the classic Tory principle that those who use it should pay for it). If anything, we should support the NRM as a matter of principle

That said, I don't think the Soyuz capsule being there is a good idea - in the same way the big wheel wasn't. The reason for this is the NRM will always have a fairly fixed audience regardless of how it's set up - it's one of those things which you're either interested in or you're not. There's no point catering for people who don't want to go there, because even if they do end up going there (e.g. as part of a family or school trip), you need that baseline enthusiasm to engage with something. You can make it as plain and accessible as you like but if people don't care, they're not going to engage with it. Putting a spacecraft on display there to get a few more people in there who wouldn't otherwise have gone in as a short-term boost is purely a cynical move to inflate the figures, and I don't think it really proves anything. It just means you get stuck in a cycle of having to do this again and again to keep the figures up

But then we live in a world where numbers are all important and mean far more than they should, because it's all about meeting targets and self-preservation. I get why it's happening. I just don't think it's the right strategy

There's lots of sense spoken in this post, but a couple of points based on my visit today: the Great Hall was full of engines. I genuinely don't understand where you would fit any more in. Secondly, again, based on my visit today on a random Tuesday in December: there were a lot more 'normals' than enthusiasts there today, in fact it was mainly normals and tourists, no kids or families, few obvious enthusiasts. Remember York is a place that draws in huge numbers of tourists, and I think the NRM reflects that with the inclusion of many 'celebrity' loco's- arguably the two most famous in the world there at the moment with Mallard and Flying Scotsman and there is another big focus on Royal Trains, again because this a hugely popular element for tourists. But what's the point in a museum if it doesn't have the big stuff to draw the crowds? The good people of RailUK are only a very small slice of the market that the NRM is aiming at, hence it's current composition of exhibits.
 

Bwlch y Groes

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Joined
22 Jul 2017
Messages
210
There's lots of sense spoken in this post, but a couple of points based on my visit today: the Great Hall was full of engines. I genuinely don't understand where you would fit any more in. Secondly, again, based on my visit today on a random Tuesday in December: there were a lot more 'normals' than enthusiasts there today, in fact it was mainly normals and tourists, no kids or families, few obvious enthusiasts. Remember York is a place that draws in huge numbers of tourists, and I think the NRM reflects that with the inclusion of many 'celebrity' loco's- arguably the two most famous in the world there at the moment with Mallard and Flying Scotsman and there is another big focus on Royal Trains, again because this a hugely popular element for tourists. But what's the point in a museum if it doesn't have the big stuff to draw the crowds? The good people of RailUK are only a very small slice of the market that the NRM is aiming at, hence it's current composition of exhibits.

Back in the day, the area around the turntable was full - all around where the Paramedic Train and by the window was full of engines. There are a lot more gaps now - and the BR exhibit and Azuma cab take up space too. It feels a lot more spaced out compared to how it was

I don't think it's quite accurate to assume a "normals" vs "enthusiasts" binary. What's a "normal" person? That could be anyone from someone who has no interest in railways whatsoever through to someone who has an interest without having an extensive knowledge. I imagine the majority of NRM visitors are in the latter camp, and you don't have to patronise them. Meanwhile, I don't think you'd go there if you were in the former unless it was an obligation, in which case you can dumb the museum down as much as you like and you're probably not going to squeeze more than the smallest bit of enthusiasm out of them for it. So I really don't see how dumbing down is supposed to work - you're making a pitch to someone who doesn't exist
 

Bromley boy

Established Member
Joined
18 Jun 2015
Messages
4,611
Build me that point mechanism into a hands on display about railway signalling that lets people pull the levers and see something happen, explain why it is important and what happens if you get it wrong and we might be on to something.

As a general point I think your comments on this thread are absolutely spot on.

In terms of the specific comments about the points exhibit, now that you mention it there was just such an exhibit in the London transport museum which I remember seeing (and playing with) years ago. It was a cross section of tunnel with a length of track including points, signals and trip arms. It worked very well in terms of being informative but also providing young kids (and those who should be old enough to know better :s) with some buttons to push. I've got no idea if it's still in the main museum, retired to the depot or dismantled.

Speaking of which, does the NRM have an equivalent of the Transport Museum's depot tours? I did one of those last year and it was an excellent way of providing a more hard core experience for the enthusiast in a way the general museum never could.
 
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Bromley boy

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Joined
18 Jun 2015
Messages
4,611
You've a right to your opinion, but I've just as much right to call it out for what it is - grumbling about a problem that stems from you being too stubborn to ask around and find the right people for your query. I can only speak for myself, but I'd hope fellow posters would back me up there. :|

I fully agree with your position.

I don't want to offend anyone, and I'm not saying this applies to anyone on this thread, but my observation is that many railway enthusiasts are old, crusty, or just plain weird and lack the people skills to attract interest from a new generation.

As you noted above, role of the NRM is to pique the interest of youngsters. That won't be done by talking about token block machines.
 
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