Great Northern Class 700 diagrams?

[sefton]

The reason these trains are a design failure is the services they are to be used on.

For a short 20 minute hop when crammed as full as a tube train their design may have a point.

However for a long distance hour long journey specifying rediculously squashed together seats so your customers suffer is preposterous.

And yes train customers will have to suffer these failures for many years to come. That is not something to celebrate, but should provoke an investigation to prevent it ever happening again.

 

[AM9]

The reason these trains are a design failure is the services they are to be used on.

For a short 20 minute hop when crammed as full as a tube train their design may have a point.

However for a long distance hour long journey specifying rediculously squashed together seats so your customers suffer is preposterous.

And yes train customers will have to suffer these failures for many years to come. That is not something to celebrate, but should provoke an investigation to prevent it ever happening again.

When a 240m long train can carry over 1700 passengers and deliver 40 second dwells with large egress/ingres volumes in safety with a conventional layout such as a Class365 then maybe such trains may be deployed. But as yet, it can't be done so Class700/345 and newer classes about to be designed will be the style that gives us the route capacity needed. If that capacity isn't there then all the investment is wasted. If the slightly increased comfort levels are really in demand, then the TOC could offer the two types of interior with a ticket price difference. I would imagine that the Class700s wouldn't be short of passengers as not many are prepared to pay for the extra comfort it gives to the first on board.

 

[Hadders]

Passengers on the 0656 from Peterborough seem to think that the reason standard class is so bad is to sell more 1st class tickets...

I've no issues with wider doors and fewer seats near to the doors to give larger areas for standing but there is no excuse for the squashed up ironing board seats that are totally unsuitable for many of the routes covered by the trains. Grammer seats, the same seats fitted to the 345s or even the same seats as on the 365s would be so much better than what we've ended up with.

When these trains launched we were told we couldn't even have table back seats because they would make the train too heavy and they would adversely affect dwell times in the core. What a load of rubbish - if this really is the case why are they now being fitted?

The DfT has simply tried to fob us off with a sub standard interior. It didn't need to be like this.

 

[Failed Unit]

I am interested in what extra capacity these trains will give?

Less seats? So more people standing maybe.

However more stops on existing services means that a train already standing at Welwyn Garden city such as the 0755 will somehow need to take Hatfield and Potters bar passengers. Where are they going to fit?

The service is also less frequent. Again how does the 700 help this?

The service is slower so maybe they hope less people will use it?

Sadly nothing for great northern passengers to look forward to. Should add this isn’t the fault of the train, it is whoever has decided the busiest stations on the line need a worse service and the quiet ones like welwyn north and knebworth need improvements. The same problems would exist with 365s or 387s. It is just the 700s coincides with one of the biggest reductions in capacity since the 153 was introduced. If the 700s brought an increase in the number of seats I am sure the majory of passengers would live them. But less seats, lower frequency and slower journeys is why we are unhappy. The introduction of the 700s I suspect is a sad coincidence.

Thameslink is seeing capacity improvements. (8 coach into 12) great northern isn’t.

 

[jon0844]

When these trains launched we were told we couldn't even have table back seats because they would make the train too heavy and they would adversely affect dwell times in the core. What a load of rubbish - if this really is the case why are they now being fitted?

The DfT has simply tried to fob us off with a sub standard interior. It didn't need to be like this.

I don't remember weight being mentioned before, but I do think they had/have a point about dwell times. One solution could have been to have tables only on the back of window seats, but we shall see as time goes on.

I suspect the DfT caved in following outrage from users, and decided not stick to their guns or attempt to justify their original decision, just as many companies now give in to outrage for an easy life, often apologising for things they needn't apologise for or arguably shouldn't apologise for.

As an aside, we've just had an MP apologise for having a go at a person putting their feet on the seats. Why do that? Now the person thinks they 'won' and will carry on.

 

[sefton]

I don't remember weight being mentioned before, but I do think they had/have a point about dwell times.

Tables have no impact on dwell times.

Dwell time is determined by the carriage that empties last, since you cannot leave until everyone in that carriage gets off (although one or two drivers try).

The last carriage to empty is the one next to the stairs as ironically everyone in there wants to be away first. Nobody in that carriage is going to let anything delay them getting off as soon as possible, let alone a table.

So fitting tables isn't giving in despite being right, it is giving in because you are wrong.

 

[Dunnyrail]

No o2wifi at station?

Dont know never tried, would I ba able to use it on Vodaphone?
JonD

 

[bramling]

Tables have no impact on dwell times.

Dwell time is determined by the carriage that empties last, since you cannot leave until everyone in that carriage gets off (although one or two drivers try).

The last carriage to empty is the one next to the stairs as ironically everyone in there wants to be away first. Nobody in that carriage is going to let anything delay them getting off as soon as possible, let alone a table.

So fitting tables isn't giving in despite being right, it is giving in because you are wrong.

And, a walk-through train *encourages* folk to move through the train to be near the doorway nearest to the exit, which means *more* people trying to alight through that door. So much for dwell times...

 

[Failed Unit]

And, a walk-through train *encourages* folk to move through the train to be near the doorway nearest to the exit, which means *more* people trying to alight through that door. So much for dwell times...

The first class at rear situation encourages people to always be at rear of the train slowing down dwells as well.

Back to topic and work at weekends or do the 700s just sit at Peterborough?

 

[Ianno87]

And, a walk-through train *encourages* folk to move through the train to be near the doorway nearest to the exit, which means *more* people trying to alight through that door. So much for dwell times...

I've found that alighting at Blackfriars in the morning peak that the queue for the southernmost door is sometimes so long, you can easily alight from the 3rd/4th coach and beat the last person in the queue (who barged you out of the way to get there...)

I guess the walk through does have a benefit for dwell times when *boarding* (usually the slower of the two processes), i.e. people can spread down to board wherever, and walk down when they alight without worrying about being in the right carriage for "their" station.

 

[bramling]

I've found that alighting at Blackfriars in the morning peak that the queue for the southernmost door is sometimes so long, you can easily alight from the 3rd/4th coach and beat the last person in the queue (who barged you out of the way to get there...)

I guess the walk through does have a benefit for dwell times when *boarding* (usually the slower of the two processes), i.e. people can spread down to board wherever, and walk down when they alight without worrying about being in the right carriage for "their" station.

I think a walk-through train has some merit on a genuine metro application, but only if all the platform entrances - at the busiest stations at least - are spread along the platform. This simply isn't Thameslink - your example of Blackfriars demonstrates this amply well. Add in the fact that quite often the entrance is at the same place as the exit, so your busiest doors for alighting may well also have more trying to entrain through them too - one can do all the encouragement in the world but there's only so much which can be done, especially in the current climate where it's not really considered acceptable to close doors on people - which doesn't really work anyway as all that happens is the train doesn't get interlock or someone will get caught and then we simply get the extra time of the whole door closure process having to be repeated.

I never really understand why some people are *so* keen to be quick off the train. I do it very occasionally if for unforeseen reasons I'm really in a hurry, but for me this is very much the exception. Yet one can see the same people doing it day in day out. It's been going on for years, and I just can't see it changing.

In my view walk-through trains are a fad which will come and pass.

 

[APUK002]

Dont know never tried, would I ba able to use it on Vodaphone?
JonD

Yes,of course. You sign up when at a 02 WiFi hotspot once,then u can use at any 02 WiFi spot :

Dont know never tried, would I ba able to use it on Vodaphone?
JonD

sure you can,but not @ Biggleswade station,:https://www.greatnorthernrail.com/travel-information/plan-your-journey/wifi-at-our-stations, a lot of cafes and venues use o2 WiFi,harvester,Costa e.g.

 

[sefton]

I never really understand why some people are *so* keen to be quick off the train.

I always pick either the 'exit' carriage so I can avoid the queues at the stairs, the barriers, the exit from the car park, and have a chance of catching the bus if the train is late.

Or if that is full the carriage furthest from the exit so the crowds have disappeared by the time I get there.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Still only two trains a day?

 

[otomous]

I am interested in what extra capacity these trains will give?

Less seats? So more people standing maybe.

However more stops on existing services means that a train already standing at Welwyn Garden city such as the 0755 will somehow need to take Hatfield and Potters bar passengers. Where are they going to fit?

The service is also less frequent. Again how does the 700 help this?

The service is slower so maybe they hope less people will use it?

Sadly nothing for great northern passengers to look forward to. Should add this isn’t the fault of the train, it is whoever has decided the busiest stations on the line need a worse service and the quiet ones like welwyn north and knebworth need improvements. The same problems would exist with 365s or 387s. It is just the 700s coincides with one of the biggest reductions in capacity since the 153 was introduced. If the 700s brought an increase in the number of seats I am sure the majory of passengers would live them. But less seats, lower frequency and slower journeys is why we are unhappy. The introduction of the 700s I suspect is a sad coincidence.

Thameslink is seeing capacity improvements. (8 coach into 12) great northern isn’t.

Capacity isn’t just about frequency. Yes there are fewer seats to squash in more standing passengers but that is the cost we pay for the limited loading gauge we have in the UK. We are pretty much at the limits of the realistic size of the rolling stock’s footprint. Can’t make them wider, can’t make them taller, can’t make them longer. Fewer seats is it. Before we get to standing only full stop hopefully infrastructure upgrades, changes in working practices or new lines will open up more opportunities (but look what a bad press HS2 gets when it tries the latter). ATO in the core will provide consistent journeys from stop to stop, making full use of headways.

The trains themselves have features which speed up dispatch - wide fast sliding doors, walk through, more space for passengers to get to and from the doorways, fast acceleration, and these help to increase a given route capacity too.

 

[387star]

Not sure tables are being retro fitted yet or just 700125 upwards

The overhead luggage racks are miles better than 377s and the interior finish is much more streamlined. .. The 377 has too many rattly panels for instance about three separate parts from the windows down whereas the 700 has the clean white wall finish

 

[APUK002]

Found the horn of 700, it sounds funny, but what does the whistle sound like?
The was a 70p test run yesterday xhe to Cambridge [CBG] and back, does this mean anything, diagrams wise?

 

[LewisT]

Found the horn of 700,sounds funny,but what does the whistle sound like?
The was a 70p test run yesterday xhe to Cbg and back ,this mean anything ,diagrams wise?

The same unit seems to be going from Hornsey to CBG and back quite often. I spotted it at about 1pm a couple of Tuesdays ago just beside Platform 8. Believe this may be a 700 run on Tuesday http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/N09852/2017/12/20/advanced. Also, there was a unit parked up on Plat 3 yesterday for about 5 hours, according to RTT, http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/N09817/2017/12/16/advanced and http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/N09818/2017/12/16/advanced.

 

[APUK002]

The same unit seems to be going from Hornsey to CBG and back quite often. I spotted it at about 1pm a couple of Tuesdays ago just beside Platform 8. Believe this may be a 700 run on Tuesday http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/N09852/2017/12/20/advanced. Also, there was a unit parked up on Plat 3 yesterday for about 5 hours, according to RTT, http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/N09817/2017/12/16/advanced and http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/N09818/2017/12/16/advanced.

Yes that’s right,they test daily back and forth to Cbg.

 

[APUK002]

365501 de-branded now, future in sight (700s soon), 6 diagrams on paper to change?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I don’t see why they're being debranded when they aren’t going to a new TOC.

 

[AM9]

I don’t see why they're being debranded when they aren’t going to a new TOC.

At the moment!

 

[class387]

Any idea when the next GN 700 diagrams are being introduced?

 

[Skimble19]

Any idea when the next GN 700 diagrams are being introduced?

12th February will be when the diagrams next change.

 

[jon0844]

Lots of 700s out and about in the day now, so lots more testing of both 8 and 12 car trains. Presumably drivers getting some time with them to sign them.

 

[Skimble19]

Minor amendment to my previous post: Due to Engineering Works between Ely and Kings Lynn from 12th to 16th February, many diagrams that week will be amended, as such the 700/0s will not be entering service on GN until 19th February. The following Weekday services are planned to swap to 700/0s on this date:

Cambridge Route
UP
2R35
2R41
1R45
1R47
1R55
1C01
1C49
1T29
1T33
1T69
2T61
1T17
1T25

DOWN
1T14
1T18
1T34
2T22
1T02
1T10
2C02
1R38
2C28
2R38
2R50
1C88

Peterborough Route
UP
2P21
1P41
2P91
1P09
1P51
1P53
1P57
2P45
1P63
1P69
2P63
2P65
1P85
1P73

DOWN
2P02
1P42
1P44
2P06
1P50
2P14
1P54
1P56
1P60
1P64
1P18
1P70
1P78
1P80
1P32
2P58

Welwyn Route
UP
2Y83
2Y91
2Y67

700/1 - Peterborough Route
UP
1P05
1P49
DOWN
1P94
1P66
1P68


Apologies if I've missed any. Will add weekend services when I get chance.

 

[Hadders]

Are the 700s coming off the existing diagrams - I seem to remember someone saying that was the plan.

 

[class387]

Minor amendment to my previous post: Due to Engineering Works between Ely and Kings Lynn from 12th to 16th February, many diagrams that week will be amended, as such the 700/0s will not be entering service on GN until 19th February. The following Weekday services are planned to swap to 700/0s on this date:

Cambridge Route
UP
2R35
2R41
1R45
1R47
1R55
1C01
1C49
1T29
1T33
1T69
2T61
1T17
1T25

DOWN
1T14
1T18
1T34
2T22
1T02
1T10
2C02
1R38
2C28
2R38
2R50
1C88

Peterborough Route
UP
2P21
1P41
2P91
1P09
1P51
1P53
1P57
2P45
1P63
1P69
2P63
2P65
1P85
1P73

DOWN
2P02
1P42
1P44
2P06
1P50
2P14
1P54
1P56
1P60
1P64
1P18
1P70
1P78
1P80
1P32
2P58

Welwyn Route
UP
2Y83
2Y91
2Y67

700/1 - Peterborough Route
UP
1P05
1P49
DOWN
1P94
1P66
1P68


Apologies if I've missed any. Will add weekend services when I get chance.

Thank you!

 

[Failed Unit]

The trains. (Adding detail from Post above - thanks for gen)
Cambridge Route
UP
2R35 0834 Letchworth - London
2R41 1001 Letchworth - London
1R45 0713 Royston - London
1R47 0732 Royston - London
1R55 1713 Royston - London
1C01 0514 Cambridge - London
1C49 0756 Cambridge - London
1T29 1158 Ely - London
1T33 1358 Ely - London
1T69 1658 Ely - London
2T61 1747 Cambridge- London
1T17 1858 Ely - London
1T25 2058 Ely - London

DOWN
1T14 1014 London- Ely
1T18 1114 London - Ely
1T34 1514 London - Ely
2T22 1605 London- Cambridge North.
1T02 1714 London- Ely
1T10 1914 London - Ely
2C02 0604 London - Cambridge
1R38 1616 London - Royston
2C28 1722 London - Cambridge
2R38 1934 London - letchworth
2R50 2234 London - Royston
1C88

Peterborough Route
UP
2P21 0410 Peterborough- London
1P41 0510 Peterborough - London
2P91 0547 Peterborough- London
1P09 0726 Peterborough- London
1P51 0816 Peterborough- London
1P53 0847 Peterborough- London
1P57 0946 Peterborough - London
2P45 1018 Peterborough- London
1P63 1247 Peterborough- London
1P69 1547 Peterborough- London
2P63 1916 Peterborough- London
2P65 2016 Peterborough- London.
1P85 2244 Peterborough - London
1P73 1803 Peterborough- London.

DOWN
2P02 0634 London- Peterborough
1P42 0722 London- Peterborough
1P44 0822 London - Peterborough
2P06 0834 London - Peterborough
1P50 1122 London - Peterborough
2P14 1234 London - Peterborough
1P54 1322 London - Peterborough
1P56 1422 London - Peterborough
1P60 1622 London - Huntingdon
1P64 1712 London - Peterborough
1P18 1837 London - Peterborough
1P70 1842 London - Peterborough
1P78 2022 London - Peterborough
1P80 2122 London - Peterborough
1P32 2207 London - Peterborough
2P58 0034 London - Peterborough

Welwyn Route
UP
2Y83 0703 Welwyn- London
2Y91 1639 welwyn - London
2Y67 2334 Welwyn - London

Will fill in gaps later.

 

[TheDavibob]

The heavy use on the alternate fasts to Ely is intriguing -- not a service they'll eventually be in use on. Will these all be the souped up versions with WiFi and table-back seats?