Has the NRM finally lost the plot? (Spacecraft going on display)

[Iskra]

I fully agree with your position.

I don't want to offend anyone, and I'm not saying this applies to anyone on this thread, but my observation is that many railway enthusiasts are old, crusty, or just plain weird and lack the people skills to attract interest from a new generation.

As you noted above, role of the NRM is to pique the interest of youngsters. That won't be done by talking about token block machines.

Exactly, NRM is just an introduction. If you want to know the intricacies and talk to the experts, you can visit one of the multitude of railways, sites or groups around the countries that specialise in that exact subject. If there isn't a group, there's probably a reason for that and if you really wanted, you could start one.

 

[mpthomson]

Calling it a "silly post" in no way addresses it. My point is that paid members of staff should should have at least some idea of the items on display which amounts to more than some facts about the Mallard memorised from a script - in my opinion, because this is all about opinions. As I said, at the time I had a friend who was a senior member of staff and one of the things he moaned about was the removal of the section of track and point mechanisms in the Great Hall because they wanted to extend the cafe area into it. But I suppose you are not bothered about track displays because they only appeal to signalling nerds ?
"I suspect he will have been a volunteer " You are absolutely wrong. Despite this being about 13 years ago, I can remember he was in full uniform with an Explainer badge and he said he was from South Africa. But don't let the facts stand in the way of your suspicions.
If you'd like even more information to disregard, I didn't even want an explanation of the key token machines , simply to get one open so I could take photos of the inside. But he couldn't find who had the key.

Most of the Explainers, wherever they come from, are volunteers....

 

[MarkyT]

But again, you're missing the point - their job is to explain the railways to visitors who know very little about them. To pique an interest. The average man off the street doesn't walk into the NRM and ask for a cross-sectional explanation of a token machine.

You can keep pushing the point about "dumbing down" but, as your friend well knows and as I explained before you glossed over the point, there are plenty of people back-doors in the research department who DO know those things, and would be happy to help if you took the time to ask. Most of the front of shop staff are locals and students who just want a job and probably have to learn a lot of what they do know from scratch. They're there to enthuse kids and spark an interest, which then blossoms into those kids becoming the enthusiasts of tomorrow, and my subjective view is that they do that really well in the circumstances. But I think you're being incredibly unfair and disingenuous to suggest that they know nothing about railways just because they didn't know anything about your incredibly niche piece of railwayana, and because a workforce which, especially in the case of students, probably doesn't know the area as well as yourself, might not know where Poppleton is. It's a bit pathetic, to be honest.

Even a rail expert may not have a particularly broad knowledge, as among the ex professionals, detailed knowledge of technology in particular is often very compartmentalised according to department. An ex signaller or signal engineer might have very good information about token and tablet systems to recount to visitors, but good luck if you ask an ex PW man or ticket clerk about the same devices! They on the other hand might have entirely different but just as detailed knowledge about their own specialised fields.

 

[800001]

It's worth going to see the capsule just to realise how small it is, and how 'Wallace and Gromit' it looks. It should have been named the Space-o-matic...
I went to see it at the National Media Museum (as was) in Bradford and it certainly had the desired effect of us going to a museum we'd been to previously, and spending money in the restaurant and gift shop.
I don't see it as a total antithesis of NRM ideals - it's showcasing technological achievement in an exciting form of transport - and definitely agree that it will bring a potential new audience to thst museum, along with their £££.

Agreed!!! I live near the museum and went specifically to see the space capsule. I used there cafe, spending money I wouldn't of normally.
The museum was busy with other visitors and a coach trip who had gone there because of the capsule, again people in there spending money, and also looking at and gaining knowledge of the trains there, that maybe wouldn't of, if the capsule was not there.

I can't see the harm, only the benefits of having and allowing the capsule to be displayed there.
Living in the area it is also, to me, brilliant that Shildon was chosen to display it, when there is so many other towns that it could of gone to.

 

[mushroomchow]

You're all going to be looking back on this fondly when we've got trains on the moon harvesting space rocks.

 

[mildertduck]

My partner took a group of young people (aged around 8) to the railway museum as a day out, on a Saturday, and struggled to find enough to keep them occupied.

With the technology of today "looking at things" doesn't really inspire young people as much as it once did, it's activities which they're all after now. It would be nice if the NRM could have lots and lots of different activities (for instance, a demonstration of how locos were built in the 1800s, or an explainer showing the interesting bits of every locomotive) but obviously this isn't practical.

I actually am starting to think that the best way to preserve this stuff is to get it working, and the NRM to buy a substantial bit of infrastructure akin to the NYMR to show this stuff. That's the way to get people interested. But that costs money. Which nobody has, sadly.

 

[mushroomchow]

My partner took a group of young people (aged around 8) to the railway museum as a day out, on a Saturday, and struggled to find enough to keep them occupied.

With the technology of today "looking at things" doesn't really inspire young people as much as it once did, it's activities which they're all after now. It would be nice if the NRM could have lots and lots of different activities (for instance, a demonstration of how locos were built in the 1800s, or an explainer showing the interesting bits of every locomotive) but obviously this isn't practical.

I actually am starting to think that the best way to preserve this stuff is to get it working, and the NRM to buy a substantial bit of infrastructure akin to the NYMR to show this stuff. That's the way to get people interested. But that costs money. Which nobody has, sadly.

I would have said that in a few years time, the NRM collection will have direct access to an 18-mile line to stretch its legs on, but turns out the HLF have shafted the project.

 

[DarloRich]

I would have said that in a few years time, the NRM collection will have direct access to an 18-mile line to stretch its legs on, but turns out the HLF have shafted the project.

some interesting quotes in that article such as:

Figures show Since 2011 Leicester has been awarded just over £9 million from the HLF, compared to £25.5 million to Nottingham, almost £18 million to Lincoln and just over £13 million to Derby and Nottingham has had nearly three times as much HLF money as Leicester. Even little Derby has had half as much again as we have.

blind men fighting over a comb.

 

[alexl92]

You are right - I am not bothered about that. Why? because it wont appeal to the target audience. Build me that point mechanism into a hands on display about railway signalling that lets people pull the levers and see something happen, explain why it is important and what happens if you get it wrong and we might be on to something.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
You are, of course, correct, but enthusiasts DO have that knowledge which they develop at the expense of almost everything else and struggle to understand why others don't take it that seriously. That isn't just train people but cars, planes, records, books etc

What an excellent suggestion. That would be a fascinating exhibit for all ages I think. I'm an enthusiast and visit the NRM a few times a year just to enjoy getting up close and personal to locomotives and stock, which are the real focus of my railway fascination. But even though I make sure I cover every inch of the museum, I find the Signalling display in the gallery above the workshop incredibly boring. I'd like to learn a bit more about signalling but it's just an overwhelming wall of text and images that don't all necesarily correspond to what's written nearby. It's not clear, or easy to tackle. There are a couple of 'interactive' items but they're more or less permanently faulty or just outright broken.

As someone who grew up as this kind of interactive museum emerged, going to places like Techniquest when I was a kid (not strictly a museum but broadly similar to how museums are going), I'm sceptical about whether the theories behind this type of learning actually work. Are kids really learning, or are they just having fun pushing all the buttons? I remember having fun in Techniquest as a kid, running around playing with exhibits, but did I learn anything? I doubt it. Would I be cynical to think that this may primarily be about creating an easy time for the adults, letting the kids off the leash to play in a safe indoor environment while also giving them the credibility of having taken them to a museum, even if they don't actually learn much? Possibly, but there may also be a grain of truth in it

Absolutely. I would appear to be approximately the same age as this poster! I've been similar places with kids in the recent past, and they want to press a button and see something happen like they do on an iPad but they don't want to know what they're actually seeing or how and why it works and/or is important. I think I was the same as a kid - my interest was railways, so in a museum that wasn't about railways or didn't contain anything railway-related (such as the media museum, which, with the exception of the green-screen flying carpet I found deathly boring), I just wanted to see what things did if I pressed/moved them. Didn't care what or why.

That said, I don't think the Soyuz capsule being there is a good idea - in the same way the big wheel wasn't. The reason for this is the NRM will always have a fairly fixed audience regardless of how it's set up - it's one of those things which you're either interested in or you're not. There's no point catering for people who don't want to go there, because even if they do end up going there (e.g. as part of a family or school trip), you need that baseline enthusiasm to engage with something. You can make it as plain and accessible as you like but if people don't care, they're not going to engage with it. Putting a spacecraft on display there to get a few more people in there who wouldn't otherwise have gone in as a short-term boost is purely a cynical move to inflate the figures, and I don't think it really proves anything. It just means you get stuck in a cycle of having to do this again and again to keep the figures up

I can see and understand the logic behind both sides of the argument, but I think this is more or less how I feel about it. It made sense to display it at the Bradford Museum as it's now 'Science and Media'. But surely if people from York wanted to see the capsule, they would just as easily have gone to Bradford to see it, just as anyone from Bradford who wishes to see 60103 in their region would be able travel to York. It's not really that far, even on public transport, and the only benefit to the museum is numbers through the door. If people were bothered about the railways, they'd come to the museum anyway.

Back in the day, the area around the turntable was full - all around where the Paramedic Train and by the window was full of engines. There are a lot more gaps now - and the BR exhibit and Azuma cab take up space too. It feels a lot more spaced out compared to how it was

Is the fake Eurostar cab still there as well as the Eurostar power car? Surely now they've got the real thing, the mockup needs to go. It takes up a huge amount of space and I don't think it really has much effect.

The biggest problem for me is the Station Hall. It doesn't quite work as either a recreation of a station OR an exhibition space. I think it's pretty naff now.
In the past, to view the Royal Train vehicles you walked along a carpeted row with the stock either side, one row headed by the gleaming LMS 5000, with little video booths talking about the history and development of the RT and I think bunting or something overhead - combined with low lighting it gave you the impression you were really following in the footsteps of royals as you wandered down there. Now, whilst Gladstone is arguably an even more fitting locomotive, the rest is just three coaches with minimal explanation or focus.

I think you could make it brilliant. You can appeal to the average punter not just with 'celebrity' locos but by invoking nostalgia; having a parcels-type train at one platform, an 'express'-type train at another and maybe a platform with the 2-BIL and a cosmetically restored first-gen DMU would show a realistic cross section of the traffic at a terminus through the years but with the effect of appealing to the average punters by recreating what they'd have known when they were younger. Last time I went with my Dad, he remembered EMUs similar to the 2-BIL and enjoyed sharing his memories of childhood even though he's no enthusiast.

I'd personally love to see the 86 with the Mk2 pullman it currently sits with plus a MK3 SLEP open for visitors to walk through. But I don't think that would appeal to many others!

I fully agree with your position.

I don't want to offend anyone, and I'm not saying this applies to anyone on this thread, but my observation is that many railway enthusiasts are old, crusty, or just plain weird and lack the people skills to attract interest from a new generation.

Yep - I see this too. Took my dad to a gala a few years ago at a local railway celebrating a significant anniversary with a gala featuring engines with a lot of local history. Ended up feeling like we were the only two 'normal' people on the train and was rather put off by the lack of attention paid by some to their presentation and personal hygiene.

 

[nferguso]

Dear God there a few members of the Preservation Taliban on this thread. Personally, I would step on the heads on people to get Tim Peake's capsule at Wirksworth. It would be a fantastic draw and then act as the perfect means to draw-in visitors to what else we have to offer.

Oh and 87001? Just be grateful it's been preserved.

 

[backontrack]

No shock or surprise to me. After all, they've had a replica Rocket there for ages.

Dear God there a few members of the Preservation Taliban on this thread. Personally, I would step on the heads on people to get Tim Peake's capsule at Wirksworth. It would be a fantastic draw and then act as the perfect means to draw-in visitors to what else we have to offer.

Oh and 87001? Just be grateful it's been preserved.

I have to agree with this too. Sometimes it's worth remembering that museums like the NRM are, above all, visitor attractions. They are not going to be kept alive solely by hardcore enthusiasts, but by families and people who love trains and other things.

I hope that this spacecraft is welcomed with open arms to York.

 

[theblackwatch]

I don't see the Spacecraft, which is clearly there for commercial reasons, as really being different to the York Eye, which was similarly located at the Museum a few years ago.

 

[E759]

Visited 8/2/2019 from opening at 10am to closing at 5pm. Thought it was fantastic. Want to go again as the "Room of Requirement" is amazing. And to think it all used to be hidden away where nobody can see!

I rode the Mallard simulator and though it was great. I wasn't around in 1938 nor do I expect to be invited onto the footplate of Tornado so that's as close to high speed steam as I will get.

Thought the Royal Train tour/talk was great. All the little anecdotes told and the evolution of the carriages explained.

The use of wood on the footplate was mentioned to prevent burns. Also the heat of spacecraft on reentry being similar to that of superheated steam. This reminded me of Chinese spacecraft using oak heat shields at the fraction of the cost of composite ablative. At the end of that tour/talk I didn't feel at all sad that the MN will never run again.

I asked a demonstrator how to get to the NYMR, bus from York or bus from Malton. She suggested driving... Apart from that, I was a very happy person and then topped it off with a couple of hours in the York Tap awaiting my Advance back to Kings Cross.

 

[HaggisBotherer]

I used to visit the free Birmingham Museum of Science and Industry all the time when a youngster. Now it's the glitzy Thinktank, charges a fortune and has dumped most historic artefacts and machines in favour of interactive displays - like we don't all spend enough time staring at screens.

Here's an alternative experience...

Recently I visited the exhibition about ocean liners at the V&A in Dundee. I was really looking forward to it, as it's a subject I have a real interest in. There were a lot of very nice and interesting 'glass case' exhibits with good text explanations, many artefacts from all the famous liners, classic promotional posters, photos, models and so on.

But what was the exhibit I spent most time looking at? A huge video wall, on which was projected an oceanscape and CGI renditions of various liners sailing past. A wooden floor and deck rail were incorporated, so you could lean on the rail and, for a few minutes, imagine you were on the deck of a passing ship, watching these legendary liners go past. I found it utterly captivating.

I'm just as much a part of the middle-aged nerdinista as many of those decrying the 'dumbing down' of the (N)RM here. However I find that, after a while, a lot of static exhibits all blur into one because... well... they don't do anything. Once I've seen 20 different historic chairs, outfits on mannequins or indeed bits of railwayana, the mind tends to stop remembering the 21st onwards.

If static exhibits have that effect on me, at an exhibition that I was interested in and really wanted to see, they will surely have even more of an ossifying effect on a casual visitor to a museum, who is not at 'Nerd Factor 9' level in its particular subject?

Except, as the parent of two children - I can tell you Think Tank is brilliant. Kids love it, they learn from going around it, they enjoy the exhibits, making things work all of that.

If you want / like traditional 'stuffed and mounted' museums, then fine - but they don't attract people any longer and the people they do attract aren't the ones who are inclined to put their hands in their pockets to make them viable... I'm with DarloRich on this - if you don't attract either families, or people who are prepared to spend money when visiting, frankly a museum will fail.

Me too.

 

[Tracked]

You're all going to be looking back on this fondly when we've got trains on the moon harvesting space rocks.

442's hauled by 50's, or 142's?

 

[nat67]

The capsule is on a tour and will bring in a lot of visitors who arn't necessarily interested in railways... but maybe that will change.

We'll I would tell them not to go to a railway museum and go to the National Space museum instead.

 

[DarloRich]

We'll I would tell them not to go to a railway museum and go to the National Space museum instead.

very welcoming to visitors!

 

[Journeyman]

442's hauled by 50's, or 142's?

Cue "My idea for Moon Railway rolling stock" on the Speculative Ideas forum.

 

[The_Train]

The NRM should be applauded for thinking outside the box when it comes to attracting new visitors to the museum. Let's not forget that this is not there purely for rail enthusiasts, it is a museum that is there so that our history is remembered and so people can see 'how things used to be' and how far we have come.

York is a popular tourist destination in this country and there will be plenty of people who might only visit NRM because of something that is non-railway related but they are not going to simply go to look at a space capsule, they will look around at all of the other exhibits. This might lead these people to think 'oh wait, we have a steam railway near us. Maybe we should visit there next weekend.' So this then puts extra funds into a little heritage line and then after these people have rode this they might think 'I'm sure steam trains run from our nearest mainline station to London (or the many other destinations charters run to), maybe we should spend next weekend on this' and suddenly these people who only visited NRM to look at a space capsule are putting money into heritage railways all over the country. If it is a family with kids, who knows it might also lead to the children finding an interest in the railways as well.

Always remember that the railways are not there just for enthusiasts but enthusiasts are there for the railways. The railways, whether mainline or heritage, cannot simply survive based on enthusiasts usage and nor should we want it to

 

[zn1]

heritage railways need to cater for everyone, if that means taking on other exhibits other than knackered coaches, locos etc then good, heritage railways esp the big boys need to expand their horizons, the NRM should be Leading the example...its been a while since i was in york, a while since i went to a heritage site for a ride...really must go and have a gander...if a SOYUZ capsule is there...good, they need somewhere to land dont they !

 

[mpthomson]

heritage railways need to cater for everyone, if that means taking on other exhibits other than knackered coaches, locos etc then good, heritage railways esp the big boys need to expand their horizons, the NRM should be Leading the example...its been a while since i was in york, a while since i went to a heritage site for a ride...really must go and have a gander...if a SOYUZ capsule is there...good, they need somewhere to land dont they !

It was there for a limited period. Amazing thing, my 5 year old daughter thought it looked like something from Wallace and Gromit!

 

[bangor-toad]

The capsule is currently on display at the Cultra Transport Museum in Northern Ireland.
https://www.nmni.com/whats-on/space-descent-vr-experience

I belive it's in the main hall where the railway exhibts are. I'm told it's free to visit that entire hall whilst the capsule is there.
Sounds good to me for increasing visitor numbers, I will be going along with the family to have a look.

All the best,
Mr Toad

 

[Harbornite]

We'll I would tell them not to go to a railway museum and go to the National Space museum instead.

Good thing your opinion is irrelevant then.

 

[Journeyman]

Personally I'm of the opinion that the NRM treads the line between enthusiast and mass appeal very well indeed, and continues to be well worth visiting.

On the other hand, what happened to the Glasgow Museum of Transport, when it morphed into the Riverside Museum, absolutely breaks my heart.

 

[silverfoxcc]

Journeyman

Biggest disappointment of my life. They have ripped the heart out of a fantastic museum, The Street scene was superb) Decimated one of the best model ship displays i have ever seen ,placed cars and ,motorcycles 30ft up on walls,
When i was asked to fill in how i found it, i was scathing to say the least and said i expected a great improvement not this idea of a first year art student,and likened my opinion as stepping in some dog droppings.....'I wish i had not had done that' Just said that to see how a museum should be , do the same as i will be doing and go to Summerlees. Now THAT is worth a visit.

 

[6Gman]

Cue "My idea for Moon Railway rolling stock" on the Speculative Ideas forum.

Will there be a service to Brighton?

(Preferably using part of a reinstated GC, including the Woodhead Tunnel.)

 

[Journeyman]

Will there be a service to Brighton?

(Preferably using part of a reinstated GC, including the Woodhead Tunnel.)

Thanks for the laugh, I really needed that!

 

[Journeyman]

Journeyman

Biggest disappointment of my life. They have ripped the heart out of a fantastic museum, The Street scene was superb) Decimated one of the best model ship displays i have ever seen ,placed cars and ,motorcycles 30ft up on walls,
When i was asked to fill in how i found it, i was scathing to say the least and said i expected a great improvement not this idea of a first year art student,and likened my opinion as stepping in some dog droppings.....'I wish i had not had done that' Just said that to see how a museum should be , do the same as i will be doing and go to Summerlees. Now THAT is worth a visit.

I've been to Riverside several times, and really, really tried to like it, but I've dismally failed. The building is spectacular, but it's better suited to modern art or something. Very rarely has spending so much money resulted in such a poor outcome.

Fully agree about Summerlee, love the working tramway and the cottages. Glad to see the 311 is getting the attention it deserves. Museum of Scottish Railways at Bo'ness is very good too.

 

[nat67]

Good thing your opinion is irrelevant then.

Okay I see like this. Have Trains ever gone into out orbit. No they haven't so what has that got to do with it in a museum that has the title 'Railway Museum'

 

[Shenandoah]

The space exhibit was not permanent, it moved on to other venues. There is a limit to where it could have been displayed and the NRM, having good footfall, seemed ideal. The heritage movement is full of anomalies such as building, locomotives and rolling stock operating in places where they never were. The NRM is an educational based place, there is far more to it than cold locomotives places here and there. It has to be accepted that different generations see the NRM is different ways; come back in thirty years and see what is there then - assuming it is still there, of course.
The NRM is free to enter, restricting some of its activities could lead to entry charges being made.