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By the way, the Кольцевая линия someone mentioned, is also known as line 5, as seen on this map: http://mosmetro.ru/download/s.jpg I think it would be quite hard for people to remember names like Серпуховско-Тимирязевская линия (do you know how to pronounce this?) when they just want to know which metro lines takes them from the city centre to, say, Savyolovsky railway terminus.
Серпуховско-Тимирязевская линия Serpookovkso - Teemeeryazevskaya line , bit like calling the Bakerloo the Queens Park - Elephant line. But it is the Russian style of doing it and not just another set of numbers or copying someone else. It makes it more unique instead of just another bland transport system.
(Кольцевая линия - Koltsyevaya linia is the Circle Line)
Surely that is implied. Otherwise it'd be like just showing "Thameslink" or "Elizabeth Line" on the front of the train without indicating where on the line it's actually heading.
Surely that is implied. Otherwise it'd be like just showing "Thameslink" or "Elizabeth Line" on the front of the train without indicating where on the line it's actually heading.
Well there is no particular reason you woul dhave to have the return working have the same line number
Or it could just be T3 North or T3 South or T3 West
Very good piece of work. I've long been fascinated by railway maps. What yours does is to make clearer the Thameslink train working patterns. One can know the network fairly well, yet not realise there are regular through services Luton to Rainham or Cambridge to Ashford - at least when one belongs to the pre-Thameslink generation where everything stopped at Kings Cross or Holborn Viaduct. Very well done. Maybe you should copyright it and sell it!
Well there is no particular reason you would have to have the return working have the same line number
Or it could just be T3 North or T3 South or T3 West
True, but that would just be complicating things massively, seemingly just for the sake of being awkward. You don't have a Bakerloo line and a Waterstreet line to describe the brown coloured railway on the tube map, so I don't see why you'd have a T3 and a T97 (eg) for different directions on the same line.
And whilst T3 N and T3 S are one way of doing it, it doesn't help if you have trains that don't run all the way through (for example, a T7 N train from the OP's map could be going to either Luton or St Albans). It also doesn't help if the line doesn't always follow the cardinal direction, after all, an Eastbound train from Southfields is running northwards.
Серпуховско-Тимирязевская линия Serpookovkso - Teemeeryazevskaya line , bit like calling the Bakerloo the Queens Park - Elephant line. But it is the Russian style of doing it and not just another set of numbers or copying someone else. It makes it more unique instead of just another bland transport system.
(Кольцевая линия - Koltsyevaya linia is the Circle Line)
Whether a transport system is bland or not, surely doesn’t depend on whether it uses a logical line number system or names for their services. The Moscow Metro wouldn’t be bland even if it only used the numbers. And still, I don’t understand why you insist that this has to be an either or question. The arguments for a logical numbering system can be found on the last three pages.
Very good piece of work. I've long been fascinated by railway maps. What yours does is to make clearer the Thameslink train working patterns. One can know the network fairly well, yet not realise there are regular through services Luton to Rainham or Cambridge to Ashford - at least when one belongs to the pre-Thameslink generation where everything stopped at Kings Cross or Holborn Viaduct. Very well done. Maybe you should copyright it and sell it!
Well, as of today there are no Thameslink trains to Rainham or Cambridge, the map/diagram shows the 2019 routes when the Thameslink Programme (and the Crossrail Project) will be finished. Also, I support open content, but thanks for your comment.
a real challenge would be "what if TfL got all the easily identifiable metro routes?"
to the south this is pretty easy- the three divisions have more or less identifiable "metro" operations (Southeastern and Southern identify these), although South Western Railway seem to be changing the SW one from what South West Trains had to possibly include the Reading services.
On the GN it's obviously the Moorgate to Welwyn and Hertford (the latter preferably to Stevenage). Liverpool Street is fuzzy, but essentially Hertford for Crossrail 2 (plus STAR). If you're including "all of Thameslink" then the whole LTS would seem to be fair game
Whether a transport system is bland or not, surely doesn’t depend on whether it uses a logical line number system or names for their services. The Moscow Metro wouldn’t be bland even if it only used the numbers. And still, I don’t understand why you insist that this has to be an either or question. The arguments for a logical numbering system can be found on the last three pages.
It isn't change for the sake of change, it's a possible change to make it easier for visitors, foreigners and non-English speakers (as well as locals) to understand a complex system of routes. When I'm using metro systems abroad, I find it much easier to remember a route letter and/or number than the names of terminal stations in remote suburbs I've never heard of.
It isn't change for the sake of change, it's a possible change to make it easier for visitors, foreigners and non-English speakers (as well as locals) to understand a complex system of routes. When I'm using metro systems abroad, I find it much easier to remember a route letter and/or number than the names of terminal stations in remote suburbs I've never heard of.
The standardisation of transport and maps to make them all the same. I do get the fact that many people want a cloned dumbed down world where you don't have to think for yourself but if you are travelling somewhere what the hell is wrong with using your brain to work out how the transport system operates ? An S-Bahn map is fine in Germany but if your intellect strays beyond the average member of a Jeremy Kyle audience then what is wrong with making the effort of understanding the culture of other people's transport networks ?
The standardisation of transport and maps to make them all the same. I do get the fact that many people want a cloned dumbed down world where you don't have to think for yourself but if you are travelling somewhere what the hell is wrong with using your brain to work out how the transport system operates ? An S-Bahn map is fine in Germany but if your intellect strays beyond the average member of a Jeremy Kyle audience then what is wrong with making the effort of understanding the culture of other people's transport networks ?
Nothing is wrong with using your brain. But one would think good customer service is about providing clear and accessible information for customers.
Particularly in and around major cities people are busy or may be using a route for the first time. Passing through town for business, on holiday, getting to the airport, visiting friends etc.
There is nothing simple about a confusing spaghetti tangle of trying to stick together three different maps to get from one side of the home counties to the other.
The standardisation of transport and maps to make them all the same. I do get the fact that many people want a cloned dumbed down world where you don't have to think for yourself but if you are travelling somewhere what the hell is wrong with using your brain to work out how the transport system operates ? An S-Bahn map is fine in Germany but if your intellect strays beyond the average member of a Jeremy Kyle audience then what is wrong with making the effort of understanding the culture of other people's transport networks ?
Well learning a bit about the place before you go may help and if you have learnt how to read maps then you should be able to work out most formats but if you want everything the same and simple (a clue to the reference) then who am I to argue.
Last time I was in Minsk (2006) there were certainly branches of McDonalds there. Can't imagine they've closed since. Don't remember seeing a Starbucks.
Can anyone recommend easy/cheap software for designing individual routes and maps with multiple lines.
Ideally on Windows, but Android, iPhone too.
Many thanks,
Matt.
A new poster revealed this thread to me which I missed previously. IMHO It is a terrific piece of work. SOme posters have not grasped that this complements, not competes with, the underground map and even though I consider myself a savvy traveller this would be very useful to me making unfamiliar connections across London. To me it carries just about enough information without becoming too complex and losing its overall usability in a spaghetti of new lines. I hope this has been developed (and continues to be developed). Applause from me.
Whether the Underground map should be updated to relate to this, I don't know.
It's very iconic but has become so convoluted it's getting harder and harder to read properly for non-savvy people.
Not sure if this is the right forum for my topic, moderators do feel free to move this thread.
On Christmas Eve I created a diagram covering all Overground, Crossrail and Thameslink routes as of December 2019, in a style loosely based on Berlin’s S-Bahn and U-Bahn map.
I know, there are far more routes that have an ‘S-Bahn’ style service (I’m thinking of Maxwell J Roberts’ map of South London lines), but I chose to focus on these three, as they are not too many routes and they make a nice representation with a circle and two orthogonal axis, similar to Berlin’s Ringbahn (S41-42-45-46-47), Stadtbahn (S3-5-7-9) and Nord-Süd-Bahn (S1-2-25) lines. Initially I also used the Berlin map’s font, but it is copyrighted so I had to replace it by Signika.
I used all the information I could find online and also gave line numbers to the distinct services, which is uncommon in Britain (except for bus and tram routes), but very common in Germany:
The line numbers include a letter, standing for Overground, Crossrail and Thameslink, respectively, and a one or two-digit number. The first number is the ‘main’ number and the second one, which is always a 5, is used for branch or ‘sister’ services. A similar system is used in Berlin, see for example the S7 from Potsdam to Ahrensfelde, and the S75 from Ostkreuz to Wartenberg. Of course, one could also introduce other numbers.
For example, on the East London Line of the Overground, you would have services O1 and O2 and their branches O15 and O25 (O15 is considered part of the O1, because it also starts/terminates at Dalston Junction). The Overground shuttle from Romford to Upminster does not carry a number, because one can hardly confuse it with any other Overground service. If one wanted, one could also call it O8.
On Crossrail, as an example, the C1, which runs more often, goes to Heathrow Terminal 4, while the less often running O15 goes to Terminal 5.
On Wikipedia, the Thameslink were even further divided, which is reflected in that T1 to T4 are the ‘mainline’ services and T6 to T9 the ‘metro’ services. I left the T5 out intentionally, so that a new Thameslink service in the future can fit in this system as either ‘mainline’ or ‘metro’.
O1 Dalston Junction – Clapham Junction
O15 Dalston Junction – New Cross
O2 Highbury & Islington – West Croydon
O25 Highbury & Islington – Crystal Palace
O3 Clapham Junction – Stratford
O35 Clapham Junction – Willesden Junction
O4 Richmond – Stratford
O45 Gospel Oak – Barking
O5 Euston – Watford Junction
O6 Liverpool Street – Enfield Town
O65 Liverpool Street – Cheshunt
O7 Liverpool Street – Chingford
O Romford – Upminster
C1 Heathrow Terminal 4 – Abbey Wood
C15 Heathrow Terminal 5 – Abbey Wood
C2 Reading – Abbey Wood
C25 Maidenhead – Abbey Wood
C3 Paddington – Shenfield
C35 (Liverpool Street – Gidea Park)
T1 Bedford – Brighton
T15 Bedford – Gatwick Airport
T2 Peterborough – Horsham
T3 (Bedford – Littlehampton)
T35 (Bedford – East Grinstead)
T4 Cambridge – Bedford
T45 Cambridge – Maidstone East (– Ashford International)
T5 (left out)
T6 Luton – Rainham
T7 Sutton Loop – St Albans City
T8 (Luton –) Kentish Town – Orpington
T9 (Welwyn Garden City –) Blackfriars – Sevenoaks
I would gladly hear your opinion on this. Do you think (a more professionally created version of) this map could be used in real life (including the line numbers)? Would you plan your journey with this map? Also feel free to point out any mistakes (like typos or incorrect routings).
Before anyone asks; I tried to squeeze in the Underground and other National Rail services, but that was no good and would have turned out very confusing. This is though, why there are so many National Rail and Underground logos, as the ‘S-Bahn’ systems obviously have many interchange stations with them.
Thanks for any comment, greetings from Germany and merry Christmas
-- Simon (U-Bahnfreund)
(Click image for a version with a higher resolution)
P.S.: In an earlier version of the map, the route of the river Thames was incorrectly shown; I have now updated this now, but it might take a while until the most recent version of the graphic appears.
