Northern timetable plan for May 2018

[Starmill]

GWR use 150s on routes of 2 hours or more too. All of these examples are pretty terrible but...

 

[Mathew S]

I suppose when Cardiff to Manchester services still have some booked 150 workings on Sundays then we can't complain too much if one or two Barrow to Manchester services have them. It'd still be much better than 142s turning up.

I could say that just because one service is rubbish is no excuse for another to be, but yeah, I tend to agree with you, it could be much worse.

 

[pemma]

Indeed. There'll be a fair few Wigan-Manchester commuters who aren't best pleased with their comfy, air conditioned, TransPennine 350 turning into a Northern 15x as well.

At least it's only an interim measure until new 195s enter service.

In early 2004 Mid-Cheshire line commuters could get a 175 in the morning to work and a 158 in the evening from work and some of those travelling in the counter-peak direction could get mk2s. Then old Northern took over and it's been 142s, 150s and a small number of 156s on all services ever since.

 

[darloscott]

The extra Harrogate expresses would seem an obvious one to me to chop as they look to be fairly self contained diagrams, or could be made into self contained. This would save you 3 units, or more if they were to be doubled but that's seems unlikely on a 15 min frequency.

 

[Philip]

At least it's only an interim measure until new 195s enter service.

In early 2004 Mid-Cheshire line commuters could get a 175 in the morning to work and a 158 in the evening from work and some of those travelling in the counter-peak direction could get mk2s. Then old Northern took over and it's been 142s, 150s and a small number of 156s on all services ever since.

That's true but the reason a 175 was used (2-coach version though I think) was because the unit immediately went into platform 14 at Piccadilly and formed an ATW Llandudno service, so FNW were just running this on behalf of ATW towards the end and this was a continuation of something which started in the summer 2001 timetable.

When Northern started in December '04, the timetable changed and this arrangement of a Mid-Cheshire diagram linking into a North Wales diagram at Piccadilly ceased to exist and so the 175 was no longer needed or even available. It wasn't a case of Northern making service cut-backs.

 

[Starmill]

That's true but the reason a 175 was used (2-coach version though I think) was because the unit immediately went into platform 14 at Piccadilly and formed an ATW Llandudno service, so FNW were just running this on behalf of ATW towards the end and this was a continuation of something which started in the summer 2001 timetable.

Well that's not quite true - First North Western operated the Llandudno services until Arriva Trains Wales began at the end of 2003. North Western Trains ordered the 175s and FNW used them accordingly.

It wasn't a case of Northern making service cut-backs.

Quite. It was that local diesel NWT routes no longer had access to modern stock because it was cascaded away to a new Wales & Borders franchise and not replaced with more new stock...

 

[Philip]

Well that's not quite true - First North Western operated the Llandudno services until Arriva Trains Wales began at the end of 2003. North Western Trains ordered the 175s and FNW used them accordingly.

Yes but the main point is that it was a stock movement done on behalf of the North Wales service. The timetable for these routes didn't change when ATW started and so the arrangement continued. The same thing happened the other way with a pair of FNW Sprinters working a morning peak time ATW Chester to Piccadilly via Warrington. It made more sense to use the strengthened Sprinter set on the busier route via Warrington for this morning peak and so the shorter 175/0 was used for the Mid-Cheshire service instead.

But ultimately when Northern started as I say the timetable did change and so this arrangement was no longer possible. If the timetable had stayed the same I've no reason to think the arrangement wouldn't have carried on.

 

[pemma]

That's true but the reason a 175 was used (2-coach version though I think) was because the unit immediately went into platform 14 at Piccadilly and formed an ATW Llandudno service, so FNW were just running this on behalf of ATW towards the end and this was a continuation of something which started in the summer 2001 timetable.

When Northern started in December '04, the timetable changed and this arrangement of a Mid-Cheshire diagram linking into a North Wales diagram at Piccadilly ceased to exist and so the 175 was no longer needed or even available. It wasn't a case of Northern making service cut-backs.

Yes I understand Northern didn't have access to the 175s or mk2s but they did choose to replace the North West 158s with rubbish from Neville Hill. However, the point I was making is Wigan passengers will only see a temporary downgrade in rolling stock quality from losing the 350 operated services, as brand new stock is on the way, while other downgrades have been permanent.

 

[Chester1]

From another thread:

Not sure if this has already been mentioned but dates for GWR 150 cascade to Northern are:

Sat 3 Feb 150101, 150104, 150106, 150108, 150123, 150128 & 150129

Sat 17 Feb 150120

Sat 3 Mar 150121

Sat 17 Mar 150127

Sat 31 Mar 150130

Sat 14 Apr 150131

If this is the wrong thread for this please delete

That is in addition to the 2 x 150 and 2 x 158 that arrived a couple of weeks ago. I am not sure if any other units are arriving. It will be interesting to see how they are used to cope with the latest infrastructure delay.

Edit: 4 x 170/4s due to be cascaded from Scotrail next month.

 

[eastwestdivide]

Over in S Yorks, the times on opentraintimes show a few changes as far as I can see:
The semi-fast Leeds-Barnsley-Sheffield trains are extended to form the Lincoln trains, fast from Sheffield to Worksop.
The stopping Sheffield-Retford servives are in, with a shunt move at Retford to change platforms.
The Scunthorpe stopping trains (formerly through to Lincoln, returning to Adwick) are cut back to Scunthorpe-Doncaster.
The stopping Hull-Doncaster services are extended all stations to Sheffield.
The other all-stations Sheffield-Doncaster per hour is formed by a Sheffield-Adwick service

 

[pemma]

and 2 x 158 that arrived a couple of weeks ago.

....

Edit: 4 x 170/4s due to be cascaded from Scotrail next month.

So it sounds like the Scotrail units are arriving early. Obviously it's not as easy for the 170s to go straight in to service as crews need to be trained on them and it may be necessary to obtain route clearance.

 

[mic505]

4 170/4s were supposed to arrive in April, but Scotrail have retained 5 Class 170/4s (Eversholt ones) which were meant to be cascaded to GTR this year.

 

[pemma]

4 170/4s were supposed to arrive in April, but Scotrail have retained 5 Class 170/4s (Eversholt ones) which were meant to be cascaded to GTR this year.

Are those 5 going to be additional capacity for Scotrail or will Scotrail release some of something else?

 

[bellalistair]

I see the Cumbria coast details have started to appear OTT, trains on Sunday, evening trains Whitehaven-Barrow and better timings for flows during the day

 

[Nev20]

Over in S Yorks, the times on opentraintimes show a few changes as far as I can see:
The semi-fast Leeds-Barnsley-Sheffield trains are extended to form the Lincoln trains, fast from Sheffield to Worksop.
The stopping Sheffield-Retford servives are in, with a shunt move at Retford to change platforms.
The Scunthorpe stopping trains (formerly through to Lincoln, returning to Adwick) are cut back to Scunthorpe-Doncaster.
The stopping Hull-Doncaster services are extended all stations to Sheffield.
The other all-stations Sheffield-Doncaster per hour is formed by a Sheffield-Adwick service

The bit regarding the extension of the Semi fast Leeds-Sheffield service, would that suggest that 158's will be more regular along the Worksop route, or will there be reshuffle in stock?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Hourly Ormskirk-Preston seems to be in as well. I'm particularly impressed with the improved evening service which includes a 2301 off Ormskirk - has it ever had that good since Merseyrail started?

It also appears to be fully clockface with no deviations at all, which is good. Even the evening service is hourly throughout.

What is interesting is that they aren't showing as through services to Colne/Blackpool South.

 

[eastwestdivide]

The bit regarding the extension of the Semi fast Leeds-Sheffield service, would that suggest that 158's will be more regular along the Worksop route, or will there be reshuffle in stock?

As it's going to be part of the Northern Connect network of higher quality services, I'd hope 158s at least initially, and possibly their new trains (Class 195) once they're built.
https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/travel/northern-connect

 

[ashworth]

The bit regarding the extension of the Semi fast Leeds-Sheffield service, would that suggest that 158's will be more regular along the Worksop route, or will there be reshuffle in stock?

The shorter journey time, and hopefully more comfortable trains, will be welcomed between Sheffield and Lincoln. However, the promised 2tph between Sheffield and Retford and improved connections to/from the Robin Hood line at Worksop, are going to be a big disappointment.

Currently, and for many years previous, the service pattern at Worksop has been broadly as follows:
xx14 to Sheffield/Adwick
xx15 to Lincoln
xx33 arrival from Nottingham
xx38 to Nottingham

The proposed new service pattern is as follows:
xx06 to Lincoln
xx24 to Sheffield/Leeds
xx33 arrival from Nottingham
xx38 to Nottingham
xx41 to Sheffield
xx59 to Retford

For the past 20 years, since the Robin Hood line re-opened, passengers from the Mansfield area have had to wait nearly 40 minutes for a connection to Sheffield. Now it will only be 8 minutes but with an approx. 35 minute wait in the opposite direction! The trains to and from Sheffield being so close together each hour rather defeats the object of an increase to 2tph!
Train travel to the north from the Mansfield area, especially with split ticketing at Sheffield, can be so much cheaper than with through tickets via Nottingham but poor connections at Worksop have always been a problem. Trains between Mansfield and Worksop are always very lightly loaded but Mansfield to Sheffield by road can be done in less than half the time than by rail. The bus service from Mansfield to Sheffield is also very slow and infrequent. The better connection on the journey from Mansfield to Sheffield will be very welcomed but now there's a long wait in the other direction.

 

[Nev20]

I will only use it between Worksop (cousin)-sheffield (Uni)-wakefield (missus), so a direct service on a nice 158 missing out the smaller stations will do for me. Sod the rest of you.

 

[Starmill]

I'm particularly impressed with the improved evening service which includes a 2301 off Ormskirk - has it ever had that good since Merseyrail started?

Only 5 minutes later than at present? Useful for preserving connections I'm sure but not that big of a change.

 

[158756]

The shorter journey time, and hopefully more comfortable trains, will be welcomed between Sheffield and Lincoln. However, the promised 2tph between Sheffield and Retford and improved connections to/from the Robin Hood line at Worksop, are going to be a big disappointment.

Currently, and for many years previous, the service pattern at Worksop has been broadly as follows:
xx14 to Sheffield/Adwick
xx15 to Lincoln
xx33 arrival from Nottingham
xx38 to Nottingham

The proposed new service pattern is as follows:
xx06 to Lincoln
xx24 to Sheffield/Leeds
xx33 arrival from Nottingham
xx38 to Nottingham
xx41 to Sheffield
xx59 to Retford

FWIW, those aren't the times that have appeared on OpenTrainTimes this week, which are half-hourly in both directions at Worksop with 10 minute connections both to and from Nottingham. That does of course mean trains departing Sheffield are very unevenly spaced.

For various reasons that might not be what actually happens of course.

 

[ashworth]

FWIW, those aren't the times that have appeared on OpenTrainTimes this week, which are half-hourly in both directions at Worksop with 10 minute connections both to and from Nottingham. That does of course mean trains departing Sheffield are very unevenly spaced.

For various reasons that might not be what actually happens of course.

That’s encouraging regarding connections at Worksop but probably not ideal for those who would like more evenly spaced departures from Sheffield. The timings I gave were from the original draft proposed timetable.

With good connections at Worksop to Sheffield from the Mansfield area, if journeys to the north become quicker by this route than via Nottingham, they should show up more on the online journey planners. People may book journeys northwards from Mansfield via Worksop, if they offered them, resulting in a small increase in passenger north of Mansfield on the Robin Hood Line. As I pointed out earlier, splitting tickets at Sheffield can save lots of money to many northern destinations.

 

[TEW]

What is interesting is that they aren't showing as through services to Colne/Blackpool South.

Presumably because they would be a bit confusing if they ran as through services. It appears trains will work Ormskirk to Preston to Blackpool South to Preston to Colne to Preston to Orsmkirk. Simpler to have them all as separate services than to have through services that would be Ormskirk to Blackpool South, Blackpool South to Colne and Colne to Ormskirk.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Presumably because they would be a bit confusing if they ran as through services. It appears trains will work Ormskirk to Preston to Blackpool South to Preston to Colne to Preston to Orsmkirk. Simpler to have them all as separate services than to have through services that would be Ormskirk to Blackpool South, Blackpool South to Colne and Colne to Ormskirk.

I have a feeling that is the 1990s "Lancashire Lines" service pattern, for what it's worth. I don't think they were advertised as through services then.

 

[Starmill]

Presumably because they would be a bit confusing if they ran as through services.

It is - but they do not usually let that stop them!

 

[pemma]

The critical political point will be the planned withdrawal of the first 5 pacers (5 x 2 coach 144s) on 15th September. The Tories will not want the headlines caused by delaying the withdrawal of pacers from the North.

Under the Pacer withdrawal dates in the franchise agreement

The Franchisee shall not return any rolling stock unit to the lessor or sub lease or hire it or otherwise take steps that render it unable to be used in the delivery of the Passenger Services until after any rolling stock unit that can be reasonably regarded as replacing it has been introduced into unrestricted use delivering the Passenger Services.

So Northern are contractually obliged to keep the Pacers in service longer if there's delays getting new/cascaded stock in to revenue earning service.

 

[Mathew S]

So Northern are contractually obliged to keep the Pacers in service longer if there's delays getting new/cascaded stock in to revenue earning service.

Which, in fairness, is only sensible... provided, of course, it doesn't push beyond the PRM deadline.

 

[mic505]

Scotrail are releasing 4 x 170/4s (not the Eversholt ones) to Northern next month. Other 5 x 170/4s (Eversholt ones) Scotrail are keeping because GTR are no longer acquiring them due to depot/siding space, reliability issues and the cost and time of converting them to 171 specification.

 

[Mathew S]

Scotrail are releasing 4 x 170/4s (not the Eversholt ones) to Northern next month. Other 5 x 170/4s (Eversholt ones) Scotrail are keeping because GTR are no longer acquiring them due to depot/siding space, reliability issues and the cost and time of converting them to 171 specification.

So do we think they're planning to use the 170s in one particular locality? Or just go with the usual strategy of pulling units out of a hat at random?

 

[northernchris]

Thought the plan was for the 170s to go on the Southport-Leeds and the Harrogate line services?