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Carillion in Liquidation

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PHILIPE

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This is what happens when Governments put utmost faith in the private sector. It's a huge payday for the legal profession as every single contract they've defaulted on could result in a claim against Carillion's Directors and Officers.

This could well become the biggest claim Lloyd's of London syndicates endure if any of the senior managers at Carillon is alleged to have contributed to the downfall of the company.

G4S made their made big bungle over the 2012 Olympics and problems with prisons and prisoners in the past, especially when they fouled up over Electronic tags. Yet the Government still awarded them contracts. Some specialist things may have to be outsourced but this could be a wake up call for all the Companies who are obsessed with out sourcing to the private sector.
 
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tomatwark

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Thanks, I was thinking that they might have to ask one of the banks to apply to the Court to wind the company up. This might be a way of expediting the liquidation and protecting what assets might have any value

There won't be any real assets as everything will be leased, either on a straight 3 year term in the case of vans etc or for the duration of the contract for items such as site cabins and large plant.

There may be small items such power tools, computers and stock but in the scheme of things you are talking peanuts from an auction point of view.

Unless they own offices and land, but I suspect that that will be either leased or have loan against it.
 

Red Dragon

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Finally to add my weight behind the falsehood that the result of a tendering process "must" go to the lowest bidder. It is entirely down to the purchaser as to how they weigh up the pros and cons of each tender submitted. It is very convenient for an organisation to say they need to save money so get it for the cheapest price you can, but that does not precluding those assessing the tender from flagging up where the bid does not meet the specification. If the level of detail provided does not give you insight into the suppliers ability to meet the specification, then the process has been flawed from the start.

I agree with your appraisal, but I also know (from a Contractor's point of view) that it is very difficult for Public Servants to justify not accepting the lowest bid.

The only time I ever experienced this with a public sector client was in the award of the tunnel and bridge contracts for the Oresund Crossing between Copenhagen and Malmo. One of the groups bidding were lowest on both the bridge and the tunnel contracts and the client was concerned this would stretch the resources of the consortium too far. The bridge and tunnel contracts were then awarded to two different groups of bidders, one of which was not the lowest bidder. An enlightened client who understood the risk and acted accordingly to ensure the road and rail link would be completed on time.

On many occasions during my career in construction we found ourselves on a tender list against "lightweight" contractors, who we considered would be unable to properly assess the risks.

The key to the bidding process is in the hands of the client, in drawing up a tender list of competent, financially stable contractors, and defining the scope of works accurately. The client also needs to identify the risks and decide which party is best suited to carry these risks, either individually or jointly.

For those who remember the bidding process for the IMUs at the time of Rail Privatisation, Jarvis were awarded the East Coast contract simply because many of the major UK contractors declined to bid for the contract, or heavily qualified their bids. It was seen as far too risky because there was no asset register. In other words the bidders didn't know what length of track or how many sets of points needed to be maintained under the contract, so how could they price the work?
Many of the major UK Contractors, mine included, were not prepared to accept this risk.

Contracting, particularly at the higher end, comes down to risk assessment at the various stages, pre-tender by the client's team, during the tender process by the contractor and their team when pricing the work, and again at the pre-award stage by the client's team. Decisions have to be made as to which party is best suited to competently manage the risk at least overall cost.

I don't believe a comprehensive risk assessment regarding the financial standing of Carillion was carried out before drawing up the lists of contractors selected to tender, or again before awarding the contracts.

The directors' remuneration packages, conditions of employment, and bonuses will now be examined to assess what contribution these "drivers" will have made to the collapse.
Also, I ask, was the reporting of losses carried out in a timely and proper manner.

The hedge funds were obviously well aware of the situation, as they have been "shorting" Carrillion for a long time.

Sad times for a lot of innocent individuals, and a massive impact on many lives.
 

Wivenswold

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G4S made their made big bungle over the 2012 Olympics and problems with prisons and prisoners in the past, especially when they fouled up over Electronic tags. Yet the Government still awarded them contracts. Some specialist things may have to be outsourced but this could be a wake up call for all the Companies who are obsessed with out sourcing to the private sector.

Worth mentioning that Balfour Beatty walked away from the Metronet weeks before being awarded an Olympic construction contract. And let's not forget that the landlord of one of the HMRC offices has non-dom status and banks taxpayers funds in Jersey. It's fair to say that successive Governments have led us to this point. Still, at least there's Brexit to distract us all from how hopeless the governing classes really are.
 

Abpj17

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I believe this was a case of Carillion itself applying for compulsory liquidation. Its major creditors - banks that had lent to it and HMG where taxes were due - had got to the point of not wanting to extend extra credit/additional terms.

It's implicit in the release 'the Board...concluded...it had no choice but to take steps to enter into compulsory liquidation'. So I think they applied to the High Court. This would have been choreographed. The final distress call was made to HMG on New Year's Eve.

And as I think mentioned elsewhere, its liquidation not administration. Two major accountants refused to act as administrators due to lack of funds (only #29mn left). As a service/contracting company, it doesn't have much in the way of real-world assets to provide as security etc. Just future revenue streams from contracts. Its share price had fallen 93% over the course of 2017 so it was a matter of time...

http://otp.investis.com/clients/uk/carillion1/rns/regulatory-story.aspx?cid=376&newsid=966343 is the formal stock market announcement.
https://www.fool.co.uk/investing/2018/01/15/what-carillion-plc-liquidation-means-for-shareholders/ has some clear numbers and history.
 

fowler9

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That's as maybe, but you can bet that this seperate company will be looking to change its name pretty soon.

Whilst there is legal seperation that protects CarillionAmey from Carillion's liquidation, they are linked by more than just name. It's quite possible that charges and payments between the two, that can no longer be made, may affect CarillionAmey's bottom line.

The sentiment about CarillionAmey's management of MOD property maintenence isn't misplaced though. In many cases as bad as the worst slum landlord.
Well mate, I work for them but there is very little i can say to you on here. Needless to say I would love to be able to say more about everything you said.
 

YorkshireBear

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Good to see the directors taking home good wages for a year or so after stepping down.

Why look for corruption around the world when we have it in spades in this country.
 

theageofthetra

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I believe this was a case of Carillion itself applying for compulsory liquidation. Its major creditors - banks that had lent to it and HMG where taxes were due - had got to the point of not wanting to extend extra credit/additional terms.

It's implicit in the release 'the Board...concluded...it had no choice but to take steps to enter into compulsory liquidation'. So I think they applied to the High Court. This would have been choreographed. The final distress call was made to HMG on New Year's Eve.

And as I think mentioned elsewhere, its liquidation not administration. Two major accountants refused to act as administrators due to lack of funds (only #29mn left). As a service/contracting company, it doesn't have much in the way of real-world assets to provide as security etc. Just future revenue streams from contracts. Its share price had fallen 93% over the course of 2017 so it was a matter of time...

http://otp.investis.com/clients/uk/carillion1/rns/regulatory-story.aspx?cid=376&newsid=966343 is the formal stock market announcement.
https://www.fool.co.uk/investing/2018/01/15/what-carillion-plc-liquidation-means-for-shareholders/ has some clear numbers and history.
So despite this why did the public sector continue to award them contracts?
 

Dai Corner

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So despite this why did the public sector continue to award them contracts?
I have heard it said that if the Government had stopped awarding contracts to Carillion on the grounds of financial weakness that would have in itself precipitated a crisis. If they carried on, there was still a chance it could recover. The Government were between a rock and a hard place.
 

jdxn

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This is what happens when Governments put utmost faith in the private sector.
No it isn't, it's 'just' a private company failing. Throwing taxpayers' money away isn't the preserve of the private sector. Remember the huge NHS IT project under Labour that was a complete failure to the tune of £10bn? https://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/sep/18/nhs-records-system-10bn
It's a huge payday for the legal profession as every single contract they've defaulted on could result in a claim against Carillion's Directors and Officers.
Probably not in reality. The only route back to the directors will only be if it can be proved that they have acted inappropriately. 'Making a mess of it' (understatement) by making bad decisions isn't necessarily wrongdoing unless people have been misled. Even if that is the case, going after a 'rich' director is fraught with difficulty because even their expensive homes and cars are small change compared with big contracts and 1bn holes. Lawyers don't go after things when there are no significant funds to go for. There is only 29m left apparently - not even a month's wages for 18,000 staff.
 

HowardGWR

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No it isn't, it's 'just' a private company failing. Throwing taxpayers' money away isn't the preserve of the private sector. Remember the huge NHS IT project under Labour that was a complete failure to the tune of £10bn? https://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/sep/18/nhs-records-system-10bn
Yes but those contracts were private firm supplied if you look down the article, as indeed they all are, because governments do not or choose not to commit civil service employment to capital projects. The discussion area is to what extent one contracts out the management of these contracts and the degree of risk specified in them. At its simplest government could just say, 'here's 10 billion, give us an East West railway and don't worry about cost overruns, we'll pick up the tab', as against something like the PFI IET project with Hitachi. Hitachi take the risk there. However, note the add-ons for bi-modes, already being incurred, due to the late GWML electrification project.

It's just a question of how tightly the government lawyers draw up these contracts. Are the lawyers civil servants or are they hired in - ooh, dodgy! See USA practice, a licence to print taxpayers money!
 

InOban

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No it isn't, it's 'just' a private company failing. Throwing taxpayers' money away isn't the preserve of the private sector. Remember the huge NHS IT project under Labour that was a complete failure to the tune of £10bn? https://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/sep/18/nhs-records-system-10bn

Probably not in reality. The only route back to the directors will only be if it can be proved that they have acted inappropriately. 'Making a mess of it' (understatement) by making bad decisions isn't necessarily wrongdoing unless people have been misled. Even if that is the case, going after a 'rich' director is fraught with difficulty because even their expensive homes and cars are small change compared with big contracts and 1bn holes. Lawyers don't go after things when there are no significant funds to go for. There is only 29m left apparently - not even a month's wages for 18,000 staff.

The main reason for going after the Bosses is fairness. This is the latest in an endless series of business failures or near failures where the decision makers have walked away unscathed and the ordinary employees have paid the price.
 

Bromley boy

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The main reason for going after the Bosses is fairness. This is the latest in an endless series of business failures or near failures where the decision makers have walked away unscathed and the ordinary employees have paid the price.

But nobody can "go after" the bosses unless they've acted illegally, or the directors have breached their fiduciary duties etc. Fairness doesn't come into it.

When a company collapses any remaining assets are divided amongst the various different creditors, with shareholders last in the queue. Employees are preferential creditors up to a certain level of unpaid wages.
 

snowball

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But nobody can "go after" the bosses unless they've acted illegally, or the directors have breached their fiduciary duties etc. Fairness doesn't come into it.
Under the present law, but the present law is crap. Hundreds of subcontractors may go bust but the directors of Carillion ringfenced their bonuses.
 

Marklund

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Under the present law, but the present law is crap. Hundreds of subcontractors may go bust but the directors of Carillion ringfenced their bonuses.

And that's the problem with these mega-conglomerates who don't actually own many assets and out-source to others.
 

yorksrob

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And that's the problem with these mega-conglomerates who don't actually own many assets and out-source to others.

I wonder how many of Carrillion's takeovers were financed through debt placed ultimately back on the company being taken over.

This seems to be a blind spot in modern day business.
 

Marklund

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I wonder how many of Carrillion's takeovers were financed through debt placed ultimately back on the company being taken over.

This seems to be a blind spot in modern day business.

Especially if there is no tangible asset that the debt is being financed on, in my opinion.
 

rebmcr

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That's the problem with these mega-conglomerates who don't actually own many assets and out-source to others.

And yet, somehow, the finance industry allowed them to accumulate £900bn £900m in debt. Surely a banker somewhere is sweating at the prospect of having (effectively) given away all of that money?

Edit:
Especially if there is no tangible asset that the debt is being financed on, in my opinion.

Exactly!
 
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Marklund

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And yet, somehow, the finance industry allowed them to accumulate £900bn in debt. Surely a banker somewhere is sweating at the prospect of having (effectively) given away all of that money?

Shades of the housing market meltdown again. The Big Short is a good film incidentally...
 

takno

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And yet, somehow, the finance industry allowed them to accumulate £900bn in debt. Surely a banker somewhere is sweating at the prospect of having (effectively) given away all of that money?
They should definitely be sweating about that much - it's nearly half of GDP
 

notlob.divad

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I have heard it said that if the Government had stopped awarding contracts to Carillion on the grounds of financial weakness that would have in itself precipitated a crisis. If they carried on, there was still a chance it could recover. The Government were between a rock and a hard place.
So did the government give contracts to Carillion over their competitors in order to keep them afloat? If so that is a misuse of public money and the minister(s) responsible should be held to account. I don't agree they were between a rock and a hard place. There was no need to pull out of ongoing contracts but there certainly should not have been any more placed until Carillion had stabilised their financial position.
 

Bromley boy

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So did the government give contracts to Carillion over their competitors in order to keep them afloat? If so that is a misuse of public money and the minister(s) responsible should be held to account. I don't agree they were between a rock and a hard place. There was no need to pull out of ongoing contracts but there certainly should not have been any more placed until Carillion had stabilised their financial position.

I don’t think anyone has suggested that.

How long have the financial problems been known about?

I don’t suppose the people awarding contracts on behalf of the government are privy to the day to day financial situation of the contractors they are engaging.
 

al78

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The main reason for going after the Bosses is fairness. This is the latest in an endless series of business failures or near failures where the decision makers have walked away unscathed and the ordinary employees have paid the price.

Ah yes, those at the top cock up and dump the consequences onto others. A sociopaths wet dream.
 

Bookd

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Back in the dark ages, when I was taught how to be a Captain Mainwaring style bank manager, one key rule was to not lend money to a contractor unless 100 % secured. Whether it be Carillion or a local subbie with a handful of staff they are only as good as their last contract, and if their client fails to pay as seems to be the case here (either because they can't or because the work wasn't up to standard) then it all falls apart.
This rule has now fallen away and most major projects are financed by debt, so contractors survive only if they can keep a positive cash flow - the same issue arises and Carillion evidently have not been paid for some large projects, so kept going by delaying payment on their bills until the cash ran out.
This has always been an issue in the contractor business and it could be said that without debt finance a lot of infrastructure work would not have been possible, but at the same time all businesses in this sector could be said to be accidents waiting to happen.
 

Bookd

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As a further thought the directors cannot be charged for being incompetent; that would be the shareholders problem.
Trading while insolvent, however, is illegal which is probably while they called it a day.
 

Bromley boy

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Fair enough there have been warning signs for some months.

Still, companies frequently go through periods of financial difficulty and don't end up collapsing, so a profits warning, high levels of borrowing etc. wouldn't necessarily justify the decision to pull contracts.

As noted upthread taking the decision not to award further contracts at an earlier stage might simply have triggered an earlier collapse. It seems a little irrational to blame the government entirely for this collapse, which has been primarily been caused by poor financial management on the part of Carillion.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Under the present law, but the present law is crap. Hundreds of subcontractors may go bust but the directors of Carillion ringfenced their bonuses.

Payments to directors after liquidation, including severance payments, will be stopped, the Insolvency Service has just told the BBC.
 
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