Oyster Weekly Capping

[DynamicSpirit]

Does anyone know why TfL do Oyster weekly capping on pay-as-you-go if you pay using a contactless debit card, but not if you use an Oyster card?

Seems a bit of an odd oversight.

 

[PeterC]

I imagine that they wanted to ensure that the new technology was bedded in before replatforming Oyster.

IIRC weekly caps won't be available on 1st generation Oyster cards. Which reminds me that I must get around to upgrading mine.

 

[MikeWh]

Weekly capping can only be handled by the back-office process, so won't be available on Oyster until that phase goes live. And it may well not be possible on 1st gen cards, though I'm not 100% on that.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Ah, interesting. So from what you guys are saying, the intention is there to introduce weekly capping for Oyster cards, it just hasn't been done yet.

Which rather begs the follow-up question, why do it on debit cards first? Do debit cards have something that Oyster cards don't have, which makes it easier to calculate weekly capping using them? I would have naively thought that weekly capping would've been handled by software on the TfL computers and card readers, since the cards presumably are nothing but data stores.

 

[Skie]

To expand on MikeWh's post:

Oyster cards store the balance and very limited journey details, so when you use them at a barrier the transaction is done there and then based on your journey history. It's why the barriers at some stations can show you how much credit you have left on the Oyster. But as a result they can't do anything complex like calculating if you have reached a cap.
Contactless payments are just logged by the barriers as an IN and an OUT with a timestamp. Then each night the TFL back-end systems pull the data from the barriers and calculate the contactless journey costs. Because this system can see your entire journey history, it has the ability to properly work out the fares and the correct cap.

 

[MikeWh]

Which rather begs the follow-up question, why do it on debit cards first? Do debit cards have something that Oyster cards don't have, which makes it easier to calculate weekly capping using them? I would have naively thought that weekly capping would've been handled by software on the TfL computers and card readers, since the cards presumably are nothing but data stores.

Rather, Oyster has something debit cards don't have - the ability to store information for TfL on the card.

Oyster is still using pretty much the same infrastructue and processes that it had when first introduced over 10 years ago. Communication between the central system and the remote readers has improved significantly so they can now add credit and refunds without having to specify a station, but the master data about each card is still stored on the card. Daily capping is calculated on the fly as you touch. It is that which needs to change to be able to process weekly caps. One of the stumbling blocks is the issue of how to display the balance at touch out time if the calculation isn't going to happen immediately. And how to prompt for a top up if the card now has no balance left. My guess is that the new app is part of the solution

 

[higthomas]

Do you have any idea of the timescales/progress of all this?

 

[plcd1]

Do you have any idea of the timescales/progress of all this?

All TfL have said is that weekly Oyster capping will be implemented "later in 2018". It is years late because various Mayoral initiatives (both Boris and Sadiq) have shunted the work programme backwards because they've taken priority. The next phase of Oyster development is the "unlimited" Hopper fare / hopper fare each side of a rail journey which is supposed to be live by "end January" (i.e. now). As is often the case with TfL I suspect the latter feature has been switched on and is working but TfL don't make a song and dance about it until they are confident it is working without any noticeable glitches.

I agree with Mike W's view that the Oyster App may well be key to how people can see if their Oyster card is capping on a weekly basis. I very much doubt Oyster cards themselves have been secretly re-engineered with a weekly cap field and the entire system equipped with the calculation algorithm in validation devices. It will be done in the "back room" system and then made available via the App, via an online account or at ticket machines if a card is presented. I also agree that 1st gen cards are unlikely to offer capping given they don't work with the App. The introduction of weekly capping may well give extra impetus for people who hold 1st gen cards to swap to the newer version. It is worth remembering though that TfL would much rather people used bank cards and dumped Oyster altogether because "£££s saving to TfL".

 

[Nick66]

How would that work, weekly capping via the app? Would you just be charged as at present and then get a refund which you would then collect when touching in?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

All TfL have said is that weekly Oyster capping will be implemented "later in 2018". It is years late because various Mayoral initiatives (both Boris and Sadiq) have shunted the work programme backwards because they've taken priority. The next phase of Oyster development is the "unlimited" Hopper fare / hopper fare each side of a rail journey which is supposed to be live by "end January" (i.e. now). As is often the case with TfL I suspect the latter feature has been switched on and is working but TfL don't make a song and dance about it until they are confident it is working without any noticeable glitches.

There's going to be a hopper fare each side of a rail journey? Do you mean, so that if you make a journey partly by rail and partly by bus, you don't get charged extra for the bus part of the journey? That would be amazing! It would solve what in my view is easily the biggest problem with the current fares system. But I've never heard before that anything like that was planned.

 

[higthomas]

There's going to be a hopper fare each side of a rail journey? Do you mean, so that if you make a journey partly by rail and partly by bus, you don't get charged extra for the bus part of the journey? That would be amazing! It would solve what in my view is easily the biggest problem with the current fares system. But I've never heard before that anything like that was planned.

No. It means that if you do a bus-tube-bus journey within an hour, you won't get charged extra for the second bus. You'll still get charged separately for the first bus and tube.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

No. It means that if you do a bus-tube-bus journey within an hour, you won't get charged extra for the second bus. You'll still get charged separately for the first bus and tube.

Oh. Hopes briefly raised and then dashed Ah well, thanks for the info!

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Rather, Oyster has something debit cards don't have - the ability to store information for TfL on the card.

Oyster is still using pretty much the same infrastructue and processes that it had when first introduced over 10 years ago. Communication between the central system and the remote readers has improved significantly so they can now add credit and refunds without having to specify a station, but the master data about each card is still stored on the card. Daily capping is calculated on the fly as you touch. It is that which needs to change to be able to process weekly caps. One of the stumbling blocks is the issue of how to display the balance at touch out time if the calculation isn't going to happen immediately. And how to prompt for a top up if the card now has no balance left. My guess is that the new app is part of the solution

Right. So, putting your and skie's posts together... if I've understood it right.

Oyster works by the system storing limited information on your Oyster card when you touch in/touch out. But contactless doesn't do that. Contactless works by merely registering that the card has been touched in/out, and the backend computers later on work out how much to charge that card. And putting two and two together, that would explain why when I touch in/out with an Oyster card, most readers will tell me as I touch out how much I've been charged for the journey, but with contactless, they don't (which I've always found a little disconcerting).

I'm also guessing that the ability to store information on the card at the instant you touch in is essential for Oyster because of the possibility that there might be insufficient funds to touch in - so the reader has to be able to read the card to decide whether to let you in. On the other hand, for a contactless card, TfL pretty much have a guarantee that later on, they'll be able to take enough money from your account to pay for any number of journeys up to the daily cap out of your bank account (barring the very rare event that someone disputes a payment with their bank), so the only decision the reader has to make is... Does this card have contactless enabled? If so, open the barriers.

Is that all correct?

If what you say is correct, and no TfL information is stored on a contactless card, then how do the machines that ticket inspectors (eg. on the DLR) have work? How can those machines tell that a contactless card has been touched in?

And how can the readers tell if a contactless card is active (and hasn't for example been cancelled as lost or stolen by the bank)?

 

[transportphoto]

If what you say is correct, and no TfL information is stored on a contactless card, then how do the machines that ticket inspectors (eg. on the DLR) have work? How can those machines tell that a contactless card has been touched in?

Essentially, they can’t tell anything. The revenue check is stored and married up with the back end system at a later point. Someone else can elaborate further on this!

 

[plcd1]

There's going to be a hopper fare each side of a rail journey? Do you mean, so that if you make a journey partly by rail and partly by bus, you don't get charged extra for the bus part of the journey? That would be amazing! It would solve what in my view is easily the biggest problem with the current fares system. But I've never heard before that anything like that was planned.

Sorry for the lack of clarity in my answer. As I helped write the original Oyster spec I can tell you that we did specify full multi-modal single fare through ticketing in the Oyster system design. I left the project team at the start of implementation so I don't know if it was subsequently taken out or watered down by the Project Team. Clearly some elements of the idea remained as it allowed bus to tram transfers in New Addington and also allowed the first stage of the Hopper ticket to be introduced very quickly.

 

[Mojo]

If what you say is correct, and no TfL information is stored on a contactless card, then how do the machines that ticket inspectors (eg. on the DLR) have work? How can those machines tell that a contactless card has been touched in?

And how can the readers tell if a contactless card is active (and hasn't for example been cancelled as lost or stolen by the bank)?

The Revenue Inspection Devices routinely "phone home" to reconcile/download the blacklisted cards to the portable device.

Generally speaking, it is not possible to check whether a card has been touched in or not, only whether it would have physically been possible to touch in (ie. is not blacklisted), although exceptions exist (eg. on buses where data can be provided from the driver's ticket machine).

 

[button_boxer]

If what you say is correct, and no TfL information is stored on a contactless card, then how do the machines that ticket inspectors (eg. on the DLR) have work? How can those machines tell that a contactless card has been touched in?

They can't. But when you present a contactless card at a revenue inspection it records the fact that you were inspected and then the back office system later looks at your touches and if you weren't "in the system" at the time of inspection then it retrospectively charges you a maximum fare. And if you're caught out like this more than once or twice they presumably blacklist the card so it can't be used for further travel.

 

[Hophead]

TfL have already encouraged holders of 1st-gen Oyster Cards to upgrade. Within the last 6 months or so, the online account has offered the opportunity to swap old for new, but note that you need to register your new card on an card reader within 7 days of receipt, which is not always convenient, particularly for out-of-town, or occasional, users (but a pink, intermediate journey, reader will do the trick, as I discovered by chance).

 

[infobleep]

No. It means that if you do a bus-tube-bus journey within an hour, you won't get charged extra for the second bus. You'll still get charged separately for the first bus and tube.

What about bus, train, bus within 1 hour?

 

[plcd1]

What about bus, train, bus within 1 hour?

AIUI it will apply to any rail, tube, DLR, Overground or TfL Rail / "Crossrail" journey provided the last touch in the second bus is within 1 hour (well 70 mins really) of the first touch in on the bus to the station. As Trams are buses for the purposes of the Hopper ticket I suppose people could do all sorts of clever things like a tram from Sandilands, Train E Croydon to Victoria and then a bus to, say, Edgware Road with the tram and bus elements only costing £1.50. You would have to have very good connections and a fast train to get the benefit though. Obviously there are a myriad of possibilities depending on the efficiency and speed of the rail network and having shortish wait times for buses.

 

[infobleep]

AIUI it will apply to any rail, tube, DLR, Overground or TfL Rail / "Crossrail" journey provided the last touch in the second bus is within 1 hour (well 70 mins really) of the first touch in on the bus to the station. As Trams are buses for the purposes of the Hopper ticket I suppose people could do all sorts of clever things like a tram from Sandilands, Train E Croydon to Victoria and then a bus to, say, Edgware Road with the tram and bus elements only costing £1.50. You would have to have very good connections and a fast train to get the benefit though. Obviously there are a myriad of possibilities depending on the efficiency and speed of the rail network and having shortish wait times for buses.

I hadn't realised trams were included in the hopper.

Would it be ppossible to saved money by tapping on a bus, not boarding and then using a tram instead?

 

[Busaholic]

I hadn't realised trams were included in the hopper.

Would it be ppossible to saved money by tapping on a bus, not boarding and then using a tram instead?

Maybe I have a devious mind. It occurs to me that, unlike the bus, you not only can, but have to, tap onto the reader at the tram stop before boarding the tram. If you were aware that your 60/70 minutes was nearly up, you might just tap in at the stop even though your next tram was ten minutes away. Perfectly legal, presumably?

 

[Nick66]

Just been on BBC London news that the unlimited one hour bus hopper starts today. Only mentioned being able to take a tube journey in between but that may just have been a simplification. Can’t see anything on the TfL website though.

 

[plcd1]

Just been on BBC London news that the unlimited one hour bus hopper starts today. Only mentioned being able to take a tube journey in between but that may just have been a simplification. Can’t see anything on the TfL website though.

There are now updated press releases and TfL info about the updated Hopper ticket. There is a short video on the TfL page about the updated Hopper.

https://tfl.gov.uk/campaign/hopper-fare

Make a journey using pay as you go (contactless or Oyster) on a bus or tram, and you can now make unlimited bus and tram journeys for free within one hour of first touching in.

Touch in using the same card on all the bus and tram journeys you make and the free fares will be applied automatically.

Hopper fares apply to all pay as you go journeys.

You can now travel on Tube, DLR, London Overground, TfL Rail, Emirates Air Line, River Bus or National Rail services between Hopper journeys, and Hopper fares will still apply.

Hopper fares will not apply if your Oyster card has a negative pay as you go balance after the first journey. If you clear the negative balance within one hour of touching in, subsequent journeys made within the hour will still be free.

https://www.london.gov.uk/press-releases/mayoral/mayor-hails-launch-of-unlimited-hopper-fare

From today, bus users across London can make as many journeys as they want within an hour for the price of one, thanks to the extension of Sadiq Khan’s landmark ‘Hopper’ fare.

Originally launched in September 2016, the ‘Hopper’ fare has already helped millions of passengers make affordable bus or tram journeys across London. From today, anyone using pay as you go can now make unlimited bus and tram journeys within one hour, fulfilling a key manifesto pledge of the Mayor.

The upgrade allows passengers to travel on Tube or rail services in between their bus journeys, which wasn’t possible before, helping even more people save money. It is estimated by Transport for London (TfL) that around 13,000 additional passengers will now benefit from the unlimited ‘Hopper’ fare every single day.

More than 140 million journeys have been made using the ‘Hopper’ fare since it was launched by Sadiq, of which around three million involved traveling on a tram as part of the journey. The latest figures from TfL show that around 350,000 journeys are being made every weekday using the ‘Hopper’ fare.

I've left out all the "praising quotes" from the great and the good from the Mayor's press release.

 

[plcd1]

Maybe I have a devious mind. It occurs to me that, unlike the bus, you not only can, but have to, tap onto the reader at the tram stop before boarding the tram. If you were aware that your 60/70 minutes was nearly up, you might just tap in at the stop even though your next tram was ten minutes away. Perfectly legal, presumably?

Yes because you are asked to touch in for the tram when you arrive on the platform not a nanosecond before a tram arrives. Clearly it is advantageous to do that if your tram ride is your last ride. The reverse applies if the tram ride is your first ride and you want to maximise your 60/70 mins - it makese sense to touch in just as the tram comes in that situation if you intend to "hop".

 

[Matt E Raffles]

Weekly capping can only be handled by the back-office process, so won't be available on Oyster until that phase goes live. And it may well not be possible on 1st gen cards, though I'm not 100% on that.

Weekly capping on Oyster will not require the Contactless Payment Card back-office processes but will actually be handled in the first instance on the card itself in a similar way to daily capping.

... I very much doubt Oyster cards themselves have been secretly re-engineered with a weekly cap field and the entire system equipped with the calculation algorithm in validation devices. It will be done in the "back room" system and then made available via the App, via an online account or at ticket machines if a card is presented. I also agree that 1st gen cards are unlikely to offer capping given they don't work with the App. The introduction of weekly capping may well give extra impetus for people who hold 1st gen cards to swap to the newer version. It is worth remembering though that TfL would much rather people used bank cards and dumped Oyster altogether because "£££s saving to TfL".

The reader software will be changed to update the Oyster card format to allow for a new information structure which will feature weekly capping counters in addition to those in place to assess daily capping. As I understand it, the same process will be applied to 'first generation' cards.

 

[londonbridge]

If you are quick enough you could get a return tram journey for the price of a single by taking the first tram, attending to whatever business you needed to and then returning to the tram stop and tapping back in. I inadvertantly managed this once when I had a doctors appointment. Took the tram in and arrived about fifteen minutes early but it was quiet and I was seen straight away. Came out, took the tram home and when checking my bank balance later I saw that I'd only been charged one fare instead of two.

 

[plcd1]

Weekly capping on Oyster will not require the Contactless Payment Card back-office processes but will actually be handled in the first instance on the card itself in a similar way to daily capping.



The reader software will be changed to update the Oyster card format to allow for a new information structure which will feature weekly capping counters in addition to those in place to assess daily capping. As I understand it, the same process will be applied to 'first generation' cards.

Thanks for this. Very interesting. I wasn't aware that card formats could be updated via simply touching a card on a validation device reader. A clever way to do it that avoids the much rumoured process of a "card swap out" procedure. Interestingly many other operators such as Singapore and Hong Kong have been through or are going through card swap out processes to remove old cards from validity or provide enhanced security / functionality. I suspect my Octopus Card for HK is about to become invalid as a result of the current swap out of older cards.

 

[Nick66]

If you are quick enough you could get a return tram journey for the price of a single by taking the first tram, attending to whatever business you needed to and then returning to the tram stop and tapping back in.

Yes, noticed this on a bus last year, the same route as well, clearly the system just sees a touch within the time limit and doesn't class it as a separate journey, unlike in some other cities/countries I can think of.

 

[MikeWh]

Weekly capping on Oyster will not require the Contactless Payment Card back-office processes but will actually be handled in the first instance on the card itself in a similar way to daily capping.

The reader software will be changed to update the Oyster card format to allow for a new information structure which will feature weekly capping counters in addition to those in place to assess daily capping. As I understand it, the same process will be applied to 'first generation' cards.

I'm hesitating to disagree with you as you seem to post with authority, but you appear to be contradicting the message I received personally from a TfL Director at the time of the contactless roll-out. Unless the method of calculating weekly caps is changed I cannot see how it will be possible to do so at the card-reader interface. The card would need to store the complete journey history for the whole week in order to calculate the most favourable combination of caps and extension journeys.

If the Oyster card really was able to handle such calculations then surely it would already calculate daily caps in the same way as contactless, which it doesn't.