Great Northern and Thameslink May 18 service changes

[Failed Unit]

Taken from the class 700 thread - as people are correct it has drifted and adding doesn't help it get on topic

With over 3m* season tickets at St Albans, (most of them leaving St Albans for London every workday morning), it's necessary for many frequent 8 & 12-car trains to provide the service. None of the EM services provide any capacity there.
*That's more than Stevenage, Hitchin and Letchworth added together.



They had even less chance of seats when they were graced with four-car class319s in the peak. At least the 700s give them plenty of safe standing room and the trains will be quicker when the new full timetable starts.

I don't dispute the fact the St Albans has a large demand, that is why the service is so frequent. Interested to know why when you compare the census information with Welwyn / Hatfield they are both bigger in terms of population but less demand from rail. It could very easily be that St Albans get more passengers because of its superior services.

But you are summing up exactly why Great Northern are unhappy. St Alban's have seen an improvement as a result of the new timetables and trains!

Is you believe the spin Great Northern will see an improvement, this is true off peak but as we have gone through many times in the peak we are only seeing things get worse. You explcitly mention you will get a quicker service. Of course we look at Envy as our journey time is slowed down.

WGC service peak now.
4x 8 coach trains to Kings Cross per hour - formed of either 365 / 387 trains (already reduced capacity from the 317 / 321)
4x 6 coach trains to Moorgate per hour - formed of 313s
Fastest journey 20 minutes.

WGC service May
4x 8 coach trains to Kings Cross per hour - formed of class 700 trains (another reduction in capacity)
4x 6 coach trains to Moorgate per hour - formed of 313s
Fastest journey time 31 minutes.

So what exactly is WGC getting out of the introduction of the 700s? Granted Thameslink has suffered the disruption of the core building work. But at least thier trains are going through the core. WGC is having reduced capacity and slower journeys with no commitment to a single train ever going through the core or any provision of extra capacity in the peak. 2020 for runnning through the core maybe? This is a station in the top 10 passenger useage on Great Northern.

Off Peak today
Direct trains to Cambridge and Peterborough (1 per hour)
3 Trains to Moorgate
2 Trians to Kings Cross

Off Peak from May
Direct trains to Cambridge (2 per hour)
4 trains to Moorgate
2 Trains to Kings Cross
Extremely poor connection at Stevenage to Peterborough which will infact be quicker to travel via Finsbury park.

So I am mystified - what exactly should I have to look forward to about the introduction of the Thameslink timetable and the class 700s? The 365s would do the job fine are have more seats.

 

[AM9]

IF, and I agree it is a big if, predictions are correct*, the development of the GN corridor takes place and the commuting population increases proportionately, there will be increased pressure for capacity on GN TL services. Judging by many comments on recent threads about the limited capacity at Kings Cross for more outer suburban servces, the only options are:

a) send a proportion of traffic through the core, - which is indeed the current plan
b) increase the length of trains running to London, - which apart from just stopping at a few major stations, would involve platform extensions. I think that would be the next step in increasing route capacity. It's not so long ago that St Albans was resticted to shorter trains. Class700s are current design trains that are designed to be extended to 12-cars so that wouldn't be a problem for the next few years.​

The other issue is that long-distance ECML traffic is likely to demand more of the platform space at Kings Cross and the site is extremely constrained, - now even more so with new developments. Like it or not, double-ended commuter operations are becoming the norm in London, firstly with Metro services, (TL, CR1 & CR2), spreading to outer suburban trains (TL & CR1 to Reading). It isn't just the problems caused by 10 minute platform occupancy at turn-round. It's also the shoulder time traffic generated by parking trains in daytime stabling locations and even the cost of providing such infrastructure anywhere near London.

* Of course predictions can be wrong and particularly with the unknowns of leaving the EU, we could be heading towards a deep recession, not only in inter-city leisure travel, but even with London work-related traffic so maybe much of the Thameslink Programme would be a waste of the investment and also the discomfort whilst it was being provided. The fact is nobody knows, but doing nothing on the hope that things will go downhill isn't a viable option.

 

[Richardr]

I don't dispute the fact the St Albans has a large demand, that is why the service is so frequent. Interested to know why when you compare the census information with Welwyn / Hatfield they are both bigger in terms of population but less demand from rail. It could very easily be that St Albans get more passengers because of its superior services.

You say that quite often, but St Albans has a much bigger population than either WGC or Hatfield.

Per the census:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_settlements_in_Hertfordshire_by_population

4 St Albans 82,146

5 Welwyn Garden City 48,380

9 Hatfield 37,577

 

[Failed Unit]

You say that quite often, but St Albans has a much bigger population than either WGC or Hatfield.

Per the census:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_settlements_in_Hertfordshire_by_population

4 St Albans 82,146

5 Welwyn Garden City 48,380

9 Hatfield 37,577

The number I have is much lower for St Albans from the same census. Don’t know why.

But irrespective even if we use the numbers above the number of people using St Albans as a % of the population is significantly higher than the others. Which must be because it’s service offering is better. The gap is widening.

 

[Jnismith]

Or it could be that St. Albans has a much higher proportion of London commuters. Without putting Hatfield down, it’s a very different demographic from St. Albans

 

[Downthelane]

How many 20 minutes WGC to KGX (or vice) are there today?

Hatfield currently has one fast train in the morning, the 7.32.

From May 2018 Hatfield gets four services in the peak?

So WGC does worse from May as all it's services now stop at HAT.

 

[APUK002]

Taken from the class 700 thread - as people are correct it has drifted and adding doesn't help it get on topic



I don't dispute the fact the St Albans has a large demand, that is why the service is so frequent. Interested to know why when you compare the census information with Welwyn / Hatfield they are both bigger in terms of population but less demand from rail. It could very easily be that St Albans get more passengers because of its superior services.

But you are summing up exactly why Great Northern are unhappy. St Alban's have seen an improvement as a result of the new timetables and trains!

Is you believe the spin Great Northern will see an improvement, this is true off peak but as we have gone through many times in the peak we are only seeing things get worse. You explcitly mention you will get a quicker service. Of course we look at Envy as our journey time is slowed down.

WGC service peak now.
4x 8 coach trains to Kings Cross per hour - formed of either 365 / 387 trains (already reduced capacity from the 317 / 321)
4x 6 coach trains to Moorgate per hour - formed of 313s
Fastest journey 20 minutes.

WGC service May
4x 8 coach trains to Kings Cross per hour - formed of class 700 trains (another reduction in capacity)
4x 6 coach trains to Moorgate per hour - formed of 313s
Fastest journey time 31 minutes.

So what exactly is WGC getting out of the introduction of the 700s? Granted Thameslink has suffered the disruption of the core building work. But at least thier trains are going through the core. WGC is having reduced capacity and slower journeys with no commitment to a single train ever going through the core or any provision of extra capacity in the peak. 2020 for runnning through the core maybe? This is a station in the top 10 passenger useage on Great Northern.

Off Peak today
Direct trains to Cambridge and Peterborough (1 per hour)
3 Trains to Moorgate
2 Trians to Kings Cross

Off Peak from May
Direct trains to Cambridge (2 per hour)
4 trains to Moorgate
2 Trains to Kings Cross
Extremely poor connection at Stevenage to Peterborough which will infact be quicker to travel via Finsbury park.

So I am mystified - what exactly should I have to look forward to about the introduction of the Thameslink timetable and the class 700s? The 365s would do the job fine are have more seats.

Do all GN stations have the relevant stoppingmarkers now?

 

[philjo]

The peak services will also all stop at Potters Bar. Not sure if this is an improvement for me or not as I usually get off at Potters Bar most days and there are currently long gaps in the through trains from North Herts to Hatfield and Potters Bar in the peaks. (a 75 minute gap in the morning peak)
The main concern is whether we will actually be able to get to the doors to alight at Potters Bar without having to stand by the door at WGC ! So not sure how many will be able to get on at Potters Bar either.

At the moment I use the train that starts at Letchworth at 0720. this is currently a 6 car 313 - there is no problem at Potters Bar except for the odd occasion when it is run as a 3 car service. I think that train fills up by New Barnet? A lot of people use that train to alight at WGC, Hatfield and Potters Bar, many of whom have already changed from a Peterborough line service at Hitchin. Presently, if the 0720 is cancelled, we have to use either the previous service from Cambridge which does stop at Potters Bar or the next one and have a 3 minute change over the bridge at WGC - after Knebworth/Welwyn North you are struggling to get near the door, though the current 387s are much worse than the 317s in this respect. but once the 0720 disappears in the timetable changes, 3 trains to WGC in 30 mins become 2 so anyone wanting to go to any station south of Stevenage (except for welwyn North which still gets the fasts from Royston/Baldock calling) will have to use the same trains that WGC/Hatfield passengers are using.

 

[AM9]

Or it could be that St. Albans has a much higher proportion of London commuters. Without putting Hatfield down, it’s a very different demographic from St. Albans

Actually that is more likely the reason for WGC and Hatfield having far less commuters. Both of those places have large industrial/commercial employment areas compared with St Albans, hence a much greater travelling population. Here the city has more administrative operations and most of those are not particularly large.

 

[APUK002]

Do all GN stations have the relevant stoppingmarkers now?

These signs,are the at all TL/GN stations now? The picture is from:http://www.railsigns.uk/sect21page8/sect21page8.html,
Andy

 

[Failed Unit]

Actually that is more likely the reason for WGC and Hatfield having far less commuters. Both of those places have large industrial/commercial employment areas compared with St Albans, hence a much greater travelling population. Here the city has more administrative operations and most of those are not particularly large.

I must admit I does surprise me how many people arrive at both those station in the peak. Ie going against the flow. The 1616 Peterborough- London service is often full leaving Potters Bar with these passengers. Not sure about the local trains loadings.

 

[Failed Unit]

These signs,are the at all TL/GN stations now? The picture is from:http://www.railsigns.uk/sect21page8/sect21page8.html,
Andy

Can’t conclusively say all but definitely at WGC, Hatfield, Potters Bar and New Barnet. (From recent use of said stations)

I suspect absolutely south of WGC because 700s will take over some of the services next week and the driver training is ongoing.

Fairly certain WGC is also SDO12 ready for disruption.

Will take another look at the proposal, but I think next week all stations on Great Northern that are planned to have 700s stop at them will get at least 1 per day. (Not sure about the little ones between Royston and Cambridge however)

 

[TheDavibob]

Will take another look at the proposal, but I think next week all stations on Great Northern that are planned to have 700s stop at them will get at least 1 per day. (Not sure about the little ones between Royston and Cambridge however)

To save the checking, the diagram thread suggests the 0756 Southbound from Cambridge will be a 700, stopping everywhere north of Hitchin (and nowhere south). Conversely, nothing is stopping northbound (in fact, even Royston only gets a single service, with 700s focused on the Cambridge fasts). No chance to test the platform extensions just yet...

 

[APUK002]

To save the checking, the diagram thread suggests the 0756 Southbound from Cambridge will be a 700, stopping everywhere north of Hitchin (and nowhere south). Conversely, nothing is stopping northbound (in fact, even Royston only gets a single service, with 700s focused on the Cambridge fasts). No chance to test the platform extensions just yet...

Oh,really,when do they start?

 

[Failed Unit]

Oh,really,when do they start?

From Monday.
0604 London - Cambridge (up working of 0756) will be a 700 so the extensions will see some use.

 

[dlj83]

Are the Thameslink Medway services still starting in May?

 

[class387]

Is likely that the increased services to Moorgate start in May - do they have enough 313s? Or will it be in 2019 like the rest of the changes once all the 717s are ready?

 

[Skimble19]

For those of you wanting to view the full May 2018 timetable, it will be online from February 25th.

 

[Failed Unit]

Is likely that the increased services to Moorgate start in May - do they have enough 313s? Or will it be in 2019 like the rest of the changes once all the 717s are ready?

If you believe the GTR publicity the suburban changes take place in May. Remember the odd 313 sets still run between letchworth / Welwyn and kings cross. These will be 700s in May.

 

[class387]

If you believe the GTR publicity the suburban changes take place in May. Remember the odd 313 sets still run between letchworth / Welwyn and kings cross. These will be 700s in May.

I still don't think it adds up. The number of 313s into Kings Cross per day is in single digits and they are adding, if I remember correctly, three extra trains per hour. The only way I see it happening is with a lot more 3 car formations which would be disastrous. I don't think it is a good idea to work 40 year old trains so hard either.

 

[Failed Unit]

I still don't think it adds up. The number of 313s into Kings Cross per day is in single digits and they are adding, if I remember correctly, three extra trains per hour. The only way I see it happening is with a lot more 3 car formations which would be disastrous. I don't think it is a good idea to work 40 year old trains so hard either.

Very little alteration in the peak. Off peak 3 cars will be enough. Same service level for WGC branch. I think Hertford gets 2 more TPH but when you consider they won’t be running north of Hertford and the ones the recover from Kings cross I expect they will be fine.

The must be as the 717s are not running late.

 

[Skimble19]

Very little alteration in the peak. Off peak 3 cars will be enough. Same service level for WGC branch. I think Hertford gets 2 more TPH but when you consider they won’t be running north of Hertford and the ones the recover from Kings cross I expect they will be fine.

The must be as the 717s are not running late.

They will be running North of Hertford until December now. Buses have been pushed back

 

[Failed Unit]

They will be running North of Hertford until December now. Buses have been pushed back

Be interesting what the new timetable brings then.

I was under the impression that it was the full monty but with some services going into
KX rather than going into the core. But this can’t be the case as they won’t have platform space at Stevenage.

 

[jon0844]

I think there is only one 3 car diagram to WGC on weekdays.

 

[bramling]

I think there is only one 3 car diagram to WGC on weekdays.

Yes there's only one all-day 313 diagram. In addition a handful of 6 cars divide for the midday period, but all attach again in time for the evening peak then remain so until stabling.

 

[Class315]

Yes there's only one all-day 313 diagram. In addition a handful of 6 cars divide for the midday period, but all attach again in time for the evening peak then remain so until stabling.

Since last December, all diagrams bar the aforementioned scheduled 3 car one remain 6 carriages in length throughout the day.

 

[APUK002]

For those of you wanting to view the full May 2018 timetable, it will be online from February 25th.

Thanks, will keep an eye

 

[frediculous]

I noticed today that all of this week and onwards there is one booked ECS movement on Thameslink into Rainham and back. I guess this will be added to next week when the full timetable goes up.

 

[jon0844]

The preview services to Horsham and Brighton from Peterborough and Cambridge begin on the 26th February as proper Thameslink services, with the rear FC declassified. All cleared to run in passenger service throughout.

 

[jon0844]

As an update, 8 car 700s will run on Great Northern from next week with first class ONLY at the front of the train. The rear will be declassified and available to all passengers.

Makes me wonder, what's happening with the 12 car PBO/KGX services? Surely they need to be the same for consistency?