First East Coast (new Open Access Operator) to be standard class only?!

[takno]

Be interesting to know what % of London - Newcastle/ Edinburgh tickets sold that are flexible now? Not many I bet. I always used the Scottish Executive ticket, with was only for the franchised operation. Likewise I found if was normally cheaper to book 3x AP than a saver for example. 1 going down. 2 returns and discarding the one I didn’t use.

Booking tickets a day or two in advance I'm finding it's rarely significantly cheaper to get APs than a super off-peak anymore. I'll switch to advances if I can get first class for 20 quid or so more, but it's not worth doing just to rush for the 6pm departure instead of the 7. No idea what proportion of other people are in the same position, but the unreserved coaches and seats are always in demand so I'd guess a reasonable number.

 

[Failed Unit]

I don't know whether the paths require 125mph running[1], but trying to poach customers from the airlines for London<>Edinburgh probably does.

[1] though this does seem likely if they're doing the whole length of the line without many stops at which they could be overtaken

From what I remember yes it does, I am sure that it was going to run very close to the proposed VTEC London - Edinburgh service that stopped at Newcastle only. But this service is suppsed to be fast from what I recall. As close to the magic 4 hours as possible. I am sure I read that when they modelled it with Pendo's it could be done in 3h50 mins. Not sure what would be possible with shortened mk4s.

 

[BigCj34]

I don't see all this scepticism about comfort levels, though First may well consider using space efficient seats to implement a few extra rows. They may be competing against themselves for the Newcastle to Edinburgh services, if the TPE services extend beyond Newcastle.

 

[Failed Unit]

I don't see all this scepticism about comfort levels, though First may well consider using space efficient seats to implement a few extra rows. They may be competing against themselves for the Newcastle to Edinburgh services, if the TPE services extend beyond Newcastle.

Considering we don't know what the seats are like on the East Coast IEPs and the Great Western ones are not that comfortable, I think it is extremely possible that the open access operators offering will be better than the franchised one. DFT have a poor track record of specifying things for comfort (look at the class 700), if they are going to make this work people don't want to be sat on an ironing board for 4 hours. I hope they will put coach levels of seating comfort in. (before anyone starts about the fire regulations - it is well documented this isn't the cause of our current uncomfortable seats it is ordering the cheapest compliant version that is the problem)

 

[paul1609]

Mention of Easyjet and Ryanair in this thread is a reminder that budget airlines are also in the sights of First's proposed new operation. A four-hour journey time from City Centre to City Centre is competitive with air travel, and the Stevenage stop could be attractive to people over a wide area who might otherwise drive to Luton and Stansted Airports.

The problem with the 4 hour journey time is that very few people are traveling city centre to city centre and those that do are already probably on rail. Take my Garelochead to Kent journey times as an example; Air 6 hours, Rail 9 hours, Car 10 hours ( all door to door). The rail option assumes using Glasgow to Euston. On this basis Virgin need to slash 3 hours from a 4hr 30 schedule to compete with Easyjet (or BA for tonight's journey)

 

[aar0]

Surely they could at least... erm ... build more of the 1980s mk4s to extend rakes to eleven coaches? Really?

We all know the Mk4s were meant to tilt, just pop a few Pendolino coaches in, they'll have the same profile and they're already Virgin branded - what more could he want?!

 

[DarloRich]

This proposal wont be popular with the cognoscenti!

I suspect it will appeal to many real people for whom cost is the key driver in relation to travel.

 

[43096]

Ok, well take VTEC 225s.

9 coaches: 5.5x Standard, 3x First

Surely this new operator could at least do:

9 coaches: 8x Standard, 1x First

Or even increase it to eleven coaches like Virgin West Coast do?

11 coaches: 10.5x Standard, 2x First

A considerable amount of added room for those who want to be savvy without eliminating the added revenue that could come in from passengers who want to travel in a nicer atmosphere but possibly not spend on Virgin. For this they could offer maybe a seat only first? I don’t know...

Yes, we know you can't do without first class - the snobbish attitude is readily apparent.

But, as has been said this is meant as a "low cost" operator. Do EasyJet have first class? No. I rather think that FirstGroup have more idea of the market than you do.

 

[aylesbury]

91,s and MK4, are the only option for new operator if it ever happens the DFT have to approve service so they are going to have to find paths and they are difficult in the south .Overall its a good idea but cant see it being allowed.

 

[Failed Unit]

Yes, we know you can't do without first class - the snobbish attitude is readily apparent.

But, as has been said this is meant as a "low cost" operator. Do EasyJet have first class? No. I rather think that FirstGroup have more idea of the market than you do.

Maybe virgin could set up an open access operator of their own. First class only. .

I could place a bet about which of the 2 will be more successful. First seem to have speed and Stevenage in their favour. Who knows Morpeth May work. I can see why the rumours about Edinburgh Park exist as another place close to the motorway network. Just can’t imagine transport Scotland allowing new competition.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Yes, we know you can't do without first class - the snobbish attitude is readily apparent.

But, as has been said this is meant as a "low cost" operator. Do EasyJet have first class? No. I rather think that FirstGroup have more idea of the market than you do.

Indeed they do, but I do wonder how popular this service will be. It sounds like my idea of hell!

As for the top comment, I am no snob - I dislike snobbish commentsnas much as the next person. I certainly can travel without first class, thank you very much. I bashed thirty three ScotRail trains in Glasgow in January and despite getting there and back in first all of those ScotRail trains were in Standard. It was an icky struggle but I managed I’m sorry if I have come across as snobbish but without wanting to deflect the nags to anyone I am not the only one put off the company by its standard class only plans. The OP dislikes the idea too.

Always nice to have something to get into though, so thanks

 

[ainsworth74]

Overall its a good idea but cant see it being allowed.

I mean the boat has rather sailed on that. They have be granted access rights by the ORR.

 

[Mikey C]

One would assume that First Group's thinking is that if it does all go belly up they can probably redeploy the stock to one of their franchised operations.

A sub fleet of 5 125mph EMUs is a pretty specialised train, there aren't too many other routes they can sensibly run on.

 

[xotGD]

Just like EasyJet or Ryanair will charge an extra fee for an exit row seat perhaps they could charge more for table seats?

Are there any other ideas from the low-cost airline model that could also be adopted?

 

[w1bbl3]

I find discussion around lack of first class for the proposed service interesting as I'd strongly suspect that long distance first class travel is now primarily a leisure product sold through discounted AP tickets. Considering the additional staffing, meal provision and reduced seating per coach I do wonder how profitable first class is for operators. The deeply discounted AP's including peak morning and evening trains is indicative that the product struggles to sell its self at full price currently.

Most businesses and the public sector already have policies that prevent first class travel and I can't really see that many travellers buying full price first tickets which seems to also reflect my experiences of travel on VTEC. A well structured buy on board offer coupled with trains at sensible times and reasonable ticket prices I suspect that First are onto something to pick up the cheap travel leisure market and the less hassle than flying business traveller.

Remember flying to Edinburgh or Newcastle for someone living around London means travelling to Heathrow, London City, Luton, Stansted or Gatwick. Stopping the service at Stevenage provides an alternative that is similar in travel time to Luton and possibly Heathrow for north London travellers. The earliest Easyjet flight from Luton doesn't arrive at Edinburgh until 10am which provides an opportunity for a well timed train to be competitive.

 

[jopsuk]

I'm amused by the posters that seem to take the idea of a standard-only operation as a personal affront to them.

Surely going through to Edinburgh Park would be a capacity issue? Waverly is being reconfigured to provide additional capacity for trains terminating from the south. Until the Dalmeny Chord and Winchburgh grade separation happens capacity through Edinburgh park is a problem and there's no obvious turnback.

The capacity is a pity as turnback at Stirling would be possible and excellent for, erm, me- Stevenage to Stirling would be very useful, personally!

 

[Failed Unit]

I'm amused by the posters that seem to take the idea of a standard-only operation as a personal affront to them.

Surely going through to Edinburgh Park would be a capacity issue? Waverly is being reconfigured to provide additional capacity for trains terminating from the south. Until the Dalmeny Chord and Winchburgh grade separation happens capacity through Edinburgh park is a problem and there's no obvious turnback.

The capacity is a pity as turnback at Stirling would be possible and excellent for, erm, me- Stevenage to Stirling would be very useful, personally!

I can't see it personally either, but I am sure it could be pathed. I don't think capacity is saturated off peak.

I use first class between London and Edinburgh - but if it wasn't offered that wouldn't bother me. The catering on VTEC is inconsistent so you have to take your own food anyway to ensure that you will actually get fed. That leaves you with the tea / coffee / cakes. If the fare is £10 cheaper I am more than happy to buy my own tea / coffee.

To me this service seems to be more like standard plus. Comfortable seats that may be better than other operators first - perfect. They as far as I am aware not going to do a Ryanair and go for 3+2 ironing board seats. If they did I suspect they will have small loadings.

 

[xc170]

Ok, well take VTEC 225s.

9 coaches: 5.5x Standard, 3x First

Surely this new operator could at least do:

9 coaches: 8x Standard, 1x First

Or even increase it to eleven coaches like Virgin West Coast do?

11 coaches: 10.5x Standard, 2x First

A considerable amount of added room for those who want to be savvy without eliminating the added revenue that could come in from passengers who want to travel in a nicer atmosphere but possibly not spend on Virgin. For this they could offer maybe a seat only first? I don’t know...

You don't really get it, do you, from what I understand, this is Ryanair on rails, if you want First Class, stick to Virgin.

Look at most intercity TOC's, off peak, most First Class carriages are seriously under used, why bother transporting fresh air around when you can have an extra standard class carriage, full of passengers who want to get from A to B as cheap and as quick as possible...

 

[Bletchleyite]

91,s and MK4, are the only option for new operator

Erm, why? Why not any other of the plethora of 125mph EMUs available on the market?

As I said I'd bet on IET or CAF, as, as others have said, if it doesn't pay they can just go to GWR or TPE. Go for IETs and they might even be able to portion work with Hull Trains and keep pathing costs down.

 

[Starmill]

The deeply discounted AP's including peak morning and evening trains

First class tickets on morning and evening peak services that offer a significant discount over the First Anytime aren't really something I ever come across personally!

First is often very cheap on late night trains, or weekday trains around midday when demand is its lowest. Sometimes sales also yield cheap first tickets but worth nothing that lots of such promotions exclude first.

 

[adrock1976]

I've done some quick searches online using the Transport for London journey planner in response to some posts referring to air/coach/road travel.

It is noted that the reference point I have used for London is the former GPO building at St Paul's which is near the tube station (this is (or was) the reference point that the AA (Automobile Association) use when inputting "London" as a generic placename). Below is what I have come up with:

Via Heathrow (Terminal 5 - I believe that is what British Airways use) - 47 minutes via Central Line and Circle/District changing at Notting Hill Gate. A further 45 minutes minimum check in required for a domestic flight, plus 65-75 minutes Heathrow - Edinburgh. Another 35-45 minutes to leave the aircraft and travel to Waverley station via the 100 bus. Total journey time = 47+45+70+40 = 3hours 22 minutes

Via Victoria (National Express or Megabus) - 25 minutes via Central Line and Victoria Line changing at Oxford Circus. 12 minutes walking time to the coach station. 8-9 hours depending on time of day and route. Add 10 minutes or so to walk from St Andrew's Square Bus Station to Waverley station. Total journey time = 25+12+10 = 47 minutes, which added to the coach journey can be between 8 hours 47 minutes and 9 hours 47 minutes.

Via Kings Cross and York - 16 minutes via Central Line and Northern Line changing at Bank (for masochists only). An alternative with a similar journey time can be had by changing to Victoria Line at Oxford Circus instead. Add 15 minutes to make way from the Underground to the mainline station. The First Group OA is scheduled to have a 3 hour 50 minutes running time from KGX - Edinburgh Waverley as mentioned in previous posts above. Total journey time = 3 hour 50 minutes+ 15+16 = 4 hours 21 minutes.

Overall, I believe that First Group will be able to tap into business and leisure passengers who are price sensitive, as although the journey time would be an extra hour compared to flying (assuming most passengers are starting/ending their journeys near the vicinity of the reference points), the comfort factor would more than make up for it.

 

[whhistle]

Ok, well take VTEC 225s...

As others have said, you fail to realise what this service is about.
Cheap train travel.

You must remember that when you grow up, you have to pay more for train travel.
If you decide to spend £12,000 going to University, can you tell me where a student with a zero hours job can get the money to spend going First Class on the rails?

 

[Malcolmffc]

How many of those on here whinging about the lack of First Class are ex-BR employees with free travel?

 

[cuccir]

Just to clarify, as I'm not sure I've seen it in the thread - am I right in thinking the planned calling pattern Edinburgh - Morpeth - Newcastle - Stevenage - London?

Broadly speaking I think innovation and different ways of running a railway are to be welcomed. 5 trains each way is not a huge demand on the infrastructure broadly speaking. My main concern would be in times of significant disruption (see last week). I hope that there'll be flexibility in either cancelling these services in favour of trains which stop at more stations or in allowing/making FEC (hmm, needs a new acronym!) to add stops at other stations when this happens.

 

[mildertduck]

When I travel by train to London, it is usually for work. My work's travel policy is that I should buy the "cheapest standard class fare for the journey I wish to make", with a further note that "fares should be purchased two weeks in advance where possible".

I suspect most, if not all, companies are the same. Following on from this, it would seem to me that First Class (*not including Weekend First) is aimed at either Executives, or those people willing to pay for a more luxury product. Given that a lot of people on the Newcastle - London route are tourists, hen/stag parties, students, and people travelling for work, I can certainly see there being more demand for standard than First on any given service.

 

[paddington]

assuming most passengers are starting/ending their journeys near the vicinity of the reference points

I wonder how valid this assumption is.

Personally I usually fly between London and Edinburgh because I prefer to avoid Zone 1 and it's just as easy to get to my destination from EDI as from EDB; though I prefer train for Newcastle as NCL is not served from LCY or LGW and while I enjoy riding the T&W metro, it adds >30 mins to the journey.

Some airline passengers will also have the London airport as their destination to continue flying elsewhere.

 

[Failed Unit]

Just to clarify, as I'm not sure I've seen it in the thread - am I right in thinking the planned calling pattern Edinburgh - Morpeth - Newcastle - Stevenage - London?

That’s the one

 

[CptCharlee]

This is a really interesting prospect. It could change the game in rail travel in UK if it's successful.

Wonder what would happen if First ever win the East Coast Franchise.

 

[Mikey C]

When I travel by train to London, it is usually for work. My work's travel policy is that I should buy the "cheapest standard class fare for the journey I wish to make", with a further note that "fares should be purchased two weeks in advance where possible".

Those are pretty harsh restrictions, does it mean you have to buy advance tickets even if you might prefer the flexibility of not wanting to be tied to a certain train (e.g. if your appointment finishes early or late)?

 

[Failed Unit]

This is a really interesting prospect. It could change the game in rail travel in UK if it's successful.

Wonder what would happen if First ever win the East Coast Franchise.

Did they have arrangements in place when the last bid over Hull Trains? Is the company viewed as separate so they can both operate independently. Let’s say they win. Run the franchise for 7 years then lose it. Would be rough for them to close down the open access operations. I suspect it should have no impact.