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First East Coast (new Open Access Operator) to be standard class only?!

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Failed Unit

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What's the likelihood that they'll use 2+3 seating?

My understanding is it will be decent seating. Not 3+2.

Better than existing standard on most trains at the moment. More leg room. Decent padding etc

If you do a google for First east coast it is on their website. New trains are explicitly started so no cl91 and mk4 planned. Big selling point is the before 10am arrival into Edinburgh. A big win.
 

A0wen

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Stevenage could be a magnet for Hertfordshire. Good connections to Cambridge as well. Significantly quicker than via Peterborough.

Erm... no. The quickest Cambridge - Peterborough services are 49 mins

The quickest Cambridge - Stevenage is 37 mins.

There's no way any train is covering Stevenage - Peterborough in 12 minutes..... as it happens the quickest is 29 minutes.
 

Bletchleyite

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Those are pretty harsh restrictions, does it mean you have to buy advance tickets even if you might prefer the flexibility of not wanting to be tied to a certain train (e.g. if your appointment finishes early or late)?

They are the same as my employer (it might well be the same employer, FWIW). This is very common, as companies do need to weed out people unnecessarily buying punitively priced Anytime tickets, and if you're travelling within working hours you don't actually have any right to time back in that way.
 

Bletchleyite

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Failed Unit

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Erm... no. The quickest Cambridge - Peterborough services are 49 mins

The quickest Cambridge - Stevenage is 37 mins.

There's no way any train is covering Stevenage - Peterborough in 12 minutes..... as it happens the quickest is 29 minutes.

But considering that the train will be non-stop from Stevenage to Newcastle it will be much quicker for people from Cambridge. Changing at Peterborough (assuming it is a good connection) the franchised operator will call at Doncaster, York, Darlington at least.

The fact that Stevenage - Cambridge is frequent (ie not 1 train per hour) I stand by that it will be more attractive for Cambridge.
 

HowardGWR

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A pity it is planned so far into the future. What could be the hold up, especially if they use existing designs?
 

Starmill

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Well they don't seem to have placed the order for the new trains yet? What's more, they didn't apply for rights that commence yet!
 

Failed Unit

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Well they don't seem to have placed the order for the new trains yet? What's more, they didn't apply for rights that commence yet!
That surprised me as well. I thought they were part of the Hull Trains order. Still to me I would have gone for mk4s on short lease. Checked reactions then ordered new if it looks good. We have off-lease stock by then. Grand Central didn’t have that luxury. Hull trains did sort of (although Anglia railway users may not agree)
 

LNW-GW Joint

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First Group will have options with CAF for more 125mph EMUs on the class 397 order for TPE, and maybe with Hitachi for more 802s.
Those units still have to be delivered and certified.
I expect First want to see how the class 802 and 397 builds go before ordering more.
There is about a year before a repeat order need be placed, and a lot can happen in that time.
First is also not immune from ECML revenue woes.
 

ChathillMan

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But considering that the train will be non-stop from Stevenage to Newcastle it will be much quicker for people from Cambridge. Changing at Peterborough (assuming it is a good connection) the franchised operator will call at Doncaster, York, Darlington at least.

The fact that Stevenage - Cambridge is frequent (ie not 1 train per hour) I stand by that it will be more attractive for Cambridge.

I do Newcastle to Cambridge (for Newmarket) every 3 to 4 weeks.

I would much rather go via Stevenage if VTEC stopped there on the Newcastle semi fast runs for the reason you mention, more trains to Cambridge ( even if its a little longer)

I say that even though the VTEC/XC connections are actually really good on the standard timetable pattern in both directions with a change at Peterborough.

So, for me it would depend how the new operator connects at Stevenage with GN/Thameslink services.
 

takno

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I've done some quick searches online using the Transport for London journey planner in response to some posts referring to air/coach/road travel.

...

Via Heathrow (Terminal 5 - I believe that is what British Airways use) - 47 minutes via Central Line and Circle/District changing at Notting Hill Gate. A further 45 minutes minimum check in required for a domestic flight, plus 65-75 minutes Heathrow - Edinburgh. Another 35-45 minutes to leave the aircraft and travel to Waverley station via the 100 bus. Total journey time = 47+45+70+40 = 3hours 22 minutes
...
This is pretty optimistic. You'll want at least 20 minutes, and probably more like 30-40 to get comfortably from the Tube upstairs, through security and across the lounge to the gate. 35 is also the quickest time I've ever done from touchdown into the centre, and that was front of aircraft straight onto a bus as the doors closed and a motivated driver consistently speeding.

EDIT:
That said, I'd have thought LCY was the faster airport from St Pauls
 

HypeTrain

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No stop at York? :s

Also, is it possible that the stock could be the first 125 mph Aventras? Or are extra 397s more likely?
 

DenmarkRail

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IF the EC was relet, and First won, I wonder if this would be integrated into their EC operation, or would continue to run separate? Same with HullTrains as well...
 

edwin_m

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The problem with the 4 hour journey time is that very few people are traveling city centre to city centre and those that do are already probably on rail. Take my Garelochead to Kent journey times as an example; Air 6 hours, Rail 9 hours, Car 10 hours ( all door to door). The rail option assumes using Glasgow to Euston. On this basis Virgin need to slash 3 hours from a 4hr 30 schedule to compete with Easyjet (or BA for tonight's journey)
A lot of business people will have a destination in a city centre though perhaps not an origin. The benchmark when rail wins out over air has traditionally been three hours centre to centre, which is obviously a simplification of everyone having their own journey with a slightly different balance of time by different modes. However with increased airport security that threshold is probably creeping above 3hr.

It's also relevant that many of the competing low-cost flights will leave from Luton or Stansted. People going to/from a large area north of London can probably access Stevenage in a similar time to either airport, so don't need to count the time to get into London against the rail option. Similarly, to a lesser extent, Morpeth versus Newcastle Airport.

I've done some quick searches online using the Transport for London journey planner in response to some posts referring to air/coach/road travel.

It is noted that the reference point I have used for London is the former GPO building at St Paul's which is near the tube station (this is (or was) the reference point that the AA (Automobile Association) use when inputting "London" as a generic placename). Below is what I have come up with:

Via Heathrow (Terminal 5 - I believe that is what British Airways use) - 47 minutes via Central Line and Circle/District changing at Notting Hill Gate. A further 45 minutes minimum check in required for a domestic flight, plus 65-75 minutes Heathrow - Edinburgh. Another 35-45 minutes to leave the aircraft and travel to Waverley station via the 100 bus. Total journey time = 47+45+70+40 = 3hours 22 minutes

Via Victoria (National Express or Megabus) - 25 minutes via Central Line and Victoria Line changing at Oxford Circus. 12 minutes walking time to the coach station. 8-9 hours depending on time of day and route. Add 10 minutes or so to walk from St Andrew's Square Bus Station to Waverley station. Total journey time = 25+12+10 = 47 minutes, which added to the coach journey can be between 8 hours 47 minutes and 9 hours 47 minutes.

Via Kings Cross and York - 16 minutes via Central Line and Northern Line changing at Bank (for masochists only). An alternative with a similar journey time can be had by changing to Victoria Line at Oxford Circus instead. Add 15 minutes to make way from the Underground to the mainline station. The First Group OA is scheduled to have a 3 hour 50 minutes running time from KGX - Edinburgh Waverley as mentioned in previous posts above. Total journey time = 3 hour 50 minutes+ 15+16 = 4 hours 21 minutes.

Overall, I believe that First Group will be able to tap into business and leisure passengers who are price sensitive, as although the journey time would be an extra hour compared to flying (assuming most passengers are starting/ending their journeys near the vicinity of the reference points), the comfort factor would more than make up for it.

I think most people would allow a fair bit more for the air option particularly if they are not regulars at that airport - more than they would allow extra for the rail option. This is not only for possible delays on the Tube but also to get from there to the check in and uncertainty about how long it will take to get through security. With the rail option a through ticket from the Underground offers some chance of not having to pay a full fare if the train is missed due to a Tube delay.

The other point is that you're probably looking at Gatwick/Luton/Stansted for a comparable low-cost journey rather than Heathrow or City, which could take longer to access.

They are the same as my employer (it might well be the same employer, FWIW). This is very common, as companies do need to weed out people unnecessarily buying punitively priced Anytime tickets, and if you're travelling within working hours you don't actually have any right to time back in that way.
However if the employee then has to kick their heels unproductively waiting for their booked train then that is employer's time wasted. Once the cost of time is taken into account a whole lot of other factors come into play, including whether there is somewhere they can work while waiting for a train and whether the nature of the work and the on-board conditions allows them to do anything productive on the train or plane itself. Many trains run hourly when the equivalent flight is only a couple of times a day, so even without the need for flexibility using the train may allow a option to be chosen that minimises wasted time.
 

Bald Rick

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This is pretty optimistic. You'll want at least 20 minutes, and probably more like 30-40 to get comfortably from the Tube upstairs, through security and across the lounge to the gate. 35 is also the quickest time I've ever done from touchdown into the centre, and that was front of aircraft straight onto a bus as the doors closed and a motivated driver consistently speeding.

EDIT:
That said, I'd have thought LCY was the faster airport from St Pauls

Indeed, and Luton and Gatwick would both be quicker to get to than Heathrow, each being 36 minutes. (And by the time this First service runs, it will be 3 minutes from train to airport terminal at Luton).


Nevertheless, there is no chance of a service doing 3h50 Kings Cross to Edinburgh with 3 stops. 4h05 if first on the graph. So more probably 4h10.
 

Doctor Fegg

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IF the EC was relet, and First won, I wonder if this would be integrated into their EC operation, or would continue to run separate? Same with HullTrains as well...

Separate. See the trouble that Chiltern got into for attempting a very very tiny bit of integration with Wrexham & Shropshire.
 

Bishopstone

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One member of on-board staff (driver aside), doing the catering between Stevenage and Newcastle and a bit of ticket checking/customer service elsewhere?
 

ash39

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The only bit that doesn't stack up with this for me is why order new trains? The leasing costs will be high and this will evetually have to be passed on to the user in one way or another.

It would have made more sense to utilise a few sets of mk4s and 91's with extra locos for cover. The main reason they're unreliable at the moment is because they're being run into the ground on massive diagrams every day. Easily 10-15 years left in them doing steady limited-stop work like this, and surely cheaper to lease. Plus they're here now and ready to go from next year...
 

ainsworth74

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The leasing costs will be high and this will evetually have to be passed on to the user in one way or another.
Will they? Of late one of the reasons given for repeated total fleet replacements has been that new stock is actually quite cheap. One of the reasons the 707s are going is that prices have fallen since the contracts for them were signed.
 

paul1609

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I wonder how valid this assumption is.

Personally I usually fly between London and Edinburgh because I prefer to avoid Zone 1 and it's just as easy to get to my destination from EDI as from EDB; though I prefer train for Newcastle as NCL is not served from LCY or LGW and while I enjoy riding the T&W metro, it adds >30 mins to the journey.

Some airline passengers will also have the London airport as their destination to continue flying elsewhere.
A lot of business people will have a destination in a city centre though perhaps not an origin. The benchmark when rail wins out over air has traditionally been three hours centre to centre, which is obviously a simplification of everyone having their own journey with a slightly different balance of time by different modes. However with increased airport security that threshold is probably creeping above 3hr.

It's also relevant that many of the competing low-cost flights will leave from Luton or Stansted. People going to/from a large area north of London can probably access Stevenage in a similar time to either airport, so don't need to count the time to get into London against the rail option. Similarly, to a lesser extent, Morpeth versus Newcastle Airport.

I doubt that many of the current business travellers on air have a destination of Edinburgh City Centre to be honest. Most people are either met at Edinburgh Airport, hire cars or get a taxi. I think Edinburgh City centre (Waverley station) is primarily a tourist destination. Its not just north of Londoners who use Stansted, I regularly travel there from Kent. Its about 1 hour 50 mins from my house as opposed to 1 hr 20 to Gatwick. The 30 minutes deficit is often made up in the flight time Stansted to Scotland flights don't suffer from the air traffic control delays that Gatwick and Heathrow do. Stevenage is about 2 hrs 10 mins.
Security delays are something of a red herring. Most regular (business) travellers will have priority security. I do with both Easyjet and BA. I can't remember an occasion where security took me more than 10 minutes, this is easily absorbed within my contingency time. I allow about 3 hours between home and Stansted maybe 2 hr 45 to Gatwick.
 

Bletchleyite

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I doubt that many of the current business travellers on air have a destination of Edinburgh City Centre to be honest. Most people are either met at Edinburgh Airport, hire cars or get a taxi. I think Edinburgh City centre (Waverley station) is primarily a tourist destination.

There are many offices in central Edinburgh, mainly in the "new town" down the hill. Though equally quite a few businesses cluster around the airport, and people will fly when going there regardless.
 

Failed Unit

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There are many offices in central Edinburgh, mainly in the "new town" down the hill. Though equally quite a few businesses cluster around the airport, and people will fly when going there regardless.

Yep. If there no businesses in the centre Waverley wouldn’t be so busy in the mornings. (Although Haymarket has a big chunk of commuting as well)

For me i don’t like the nature of flying.

I include security in the arrivals process. But all the boarding. Can’t work during take off/ landing etc. Get on a train the time is yours until your destination. Many prefer Air for the raw speed.

As long as the train is comfortable it will do well. Hopefully force the franchise operator to up its game. Bet we won’t see ironing boards on either operator.
 

CosherB

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Indeed they do, but I do wonder how popular this service will be. It sounds like my idea of hell!

As for the top comment, I am no snob - I dislike snobbish commentsnas much as the next person. I certainly can travel without first class, thank you very much. I bashed thirty three ScotRail trains in Glasgow in January and despite getting there and back in first all of those ScotRail trains were in Standard. It was an icky struggle but I managed ;) I’m sorry if I have come across as snobbish but without wanting to deflect the nags to anyone I am not the only one put off the company by its standard class only plans. The OP dislikes the idea too. :)

Always nice to have something to get into though, so thanks ;)
Why don’t you have a punt at an Anglo-Scottish Pullman service, using all of the spare Mk4 FOs, a couple of kitchen cars and full at-seat service. Should tie-in nicely with your marketing degree at uni - you could use your business plan for your dissertation. What could possibly go wrong?
 

Silver Cobra

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The part I like most about this proposal is the potential increase in direct services from Stevenage to Newcastle and Edinburgh. Currently, there is only one direct service from Stevenage to Edinburgh, which is a very early morning all-stations stopper at 0636 Monday to Saturday. In comparison, there's plenty of direct services from Edinburgh to Stevenage from 1600 onwards, including a fast service at 1630. Until the end of December, there was also an 0720 departure on Saturdays, which was an added stop to an Edinburgh fast service, but that has now changed to calling at Peterborough at 0747. The same also applies to Newcastle. While there are several direct services from late evening onwards, they're no use to anyone wanting to travel in the day. As my local station is Arlesey and the first bus from where I live doesn't reach the station until 0645, I have to travel up to Peterborough to connect to services to Edinburgh/Newcastle. Having an alternative option via Stevenage would be very helpful (I do make use of the current direct evening VTEC services to Stevenage for my return journeys from Edinburgh).

I've travelled in standard with VTEC several times from Peterborough to Newcastle and Edinburgh, so the standard-only element of this proposal doesn't concern me. I generally book these journeys as standard out first return, so could happily combine the outbound leg with First and the return with VTEC/ICEC.
 
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TT-ONR-NRN

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Why don’t you have a punt at an Anglo-Scottish Pullman service, using all of the spare Mk4 FOs, a couple of kitchen cars and full at-seat service. Should tie-in nicely with your marketing degree at uni - you could use your business plan for your dissertation. What could possibly go wrong?
Marketing degree? I highly doubt it. I did get a 9 in my last GCSE Business Studies mock exam, but even so I doubt I could run a Pullman service. :)
 
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