Ticket pickup problems at Huddersfield

[toffeedanish]

I bought a walk-on return ticket online and tried to collect at Huddersfield yesterday morning prior to travel with my scribbled down reference number and purchase card. Because of the system fault I was unable to do so. I asked gateline staff what to do and they said not to worry as the fault was known about, to board my train, and to collect my tickets at first opportunity.

Following this advice I boarded a Northern service for my first journey leg to Sheffield. On board I explained the situation when the conductor asked for my ticket. He said if I had neither a ticket nor an email proof of purchase (I had shown him my hand-written reference) I would have to buy a new ticket to my destination. Not having funds for this I declined. I was then asked to buy a new ticket as far as Sheffield. I was not prepared to do this as I may have faced the same problem on all my other trains that day.

I said that I had been advised by his colleagues at the station to board. He said that Huddersfield was a Transpennine station and their representatives should not have allowed me through the gateline without ticket or email onto a Northern train. I said that the fault was evidently a national one, and could he check this? He said that he was well aware of the problem and that Northern's policy was to charge for a new ticket in these circumstances. I again declined.

After a lengthy and stressful conversation he came up with a 'work-around'. As it happened, I remembered I did have a device with me which would have the emailed proof of purchase on it, were I able to connect to wifi. The conductor gave me a code to access wifi and I was able to show him the email. I do not know what the outcome would have been if I did not have my device with me (I don't normally travel with it). At Sheffield I was able to collect my tickets without further issue.

Before I contact Northern, I would like to canvas opinion here.

My questions are: is Northern's policy in these circumstances as stated by the conductor? If so, should every online ticket interface state that proof of purchase email should be carried at all times in case of a system fault?

Even though a seasoned traveller I was left stressed by the incident and I can well imagine others being put off travelling by rail by similar.

 

[Puffing Devil]

I bought a walk-on return ticket online and tried to collect at Huddersfield yesterday morning prior to travel with my scribbled down reference number and purchase card. Because of the system fault I was unable to do so. I asked gateline staff what to do and they said not to worry as the fault was known about, to board my train, and to collect my tickets at first opportunity.

Following this advice I boarded a Northern service for my first journey leg to Sheffield. On board I explained the situation when the conductor asked for my ticket. He said if I had neither a ticket nor an email proof of purchase (I had shown him my hand-written reference) I would have to buy a new ticket to my destination. Not having funds for this I declined. I was then asked to buy a new ticket as far as Sheffield. I was not prepared to do this as I may have faced the same problem on all my other trains that day.

I said that I had been advised by his colleagues at the station to board. He said that Huddersfield was a Transpennine station and their representatives should not have allowed me through the gateline without ticket or email onto a Northern train. I said that the fault was evidently a national one, and could he check this? He said that he was well aware of the problem and that Northern's policy was to charge for a new ticket in these circumstances. I again declined.

After a lengthy and stressful conversation he came up with a 'work-around'. As it happened, I remembered I did have a device with me which would have the emailed proof of purchase on it, were I able to connect to wifi. The conductor gave me a code to access wifi and I was able to show him the email. I do not know what the outcome would have been if I did not have my device with me (I don't normally travel with it). At Sheffield I was able to collect my tickets without further issue.

Before I contact Northern, I would like to canvas opinion here.

My questions are: is Northern's policy in these circumstances as stated by the conductor? If so, should every online ticket interface state that proof of purchase email should be carried at all times in case of a system fault?

Even though a seasoned traveller I was left stressed by the incident and I can well imagine others being put off travelling by rail by similar.

1) You were given permission to continue your journey by an member of station staff. That should be enough. It is unfortunate that there never seems to be written authorisation provided on a standard form - not your fault, but it would make like so much easier. Much discussion about this already.

2) With that permission, written or not, you were given an unnecessarily hard time by a Northern guard during nationwide ticketing outage that he was aware of.

I would certainly pursue this very strongly with Northern.

 

[itsjustmyjob]

This happened to me recently at Halifax station.
The machine was working but due to an IT fault, tickets weren't available for collection with a reference number and card.
I popped into the ticket office and the booking clerk was more than willing to print my tickets for me with the necessary information.
2 minutes later I was on my way with the tickets I needed.

Did to OP try asking at the ticket office for tickets to be printed before going to the barrier staff?

 

[221129]

This happened to me recently at Halifax station.
The machine was working but due to an IT fault, tickets weren't available for collection with a reference number and card.
I popped into the ticket office and the booking clerk was more than willing to print my tickets for me with the necessary information.
2 minutes later I was on my way with the tickets I needed.

Did to OP try asking at the ticket office for tickets to be printed before going to the barrier staff?

The ticket office would not have been able to do it either.

 

[sheff1]

It is not necessary to have an email to collect a ticket. My TOD ref is always on a scrap of paper.

If the TOD system is down, then permission to travel is permission to travel. Northern have no grounds on which to make up their own 'rules'.

 

[Gareth Marston]

A scrap of paper with a handwritten reference is not proof that a ticket has been purchased online. The gateline staff should have asked to see something else. An e mail or print off of confirmation.

The gateline staff don't see the problems that people with scraps of paper have in collecting tickets that they believe they have purchased online. The characters they have written down quite often don't match anything in the system and the search by name, post code function rarely resolves things.

 

[AlterEgo]

A scrap of paper with a handwritten reference is not proof that a ticket has been purchased online. The gateline staff should have asked to see something else. An e mail or print off of confirmation.

The OP doesn’t have it.

Then what?

 

[Gareth Marston]

The OP doesn’t have it.

Then what?

Turned out he had it on his phone.

 

[Llanigraham]

The OP doesn’t have it.

Then what?

He buys a new ticket and claims back for the one he didn't use.

 

[sheff1]

A scrap of paper with a handwritten reference is not proof that a ticket has been purchased online. The gateline staff should have asked to see something else. An e mail or print off of confirmation.

Again, there is no requirement to have an email or printed confirmation to collect a ticket (unlike a Megatrain booking where the passenger must be able to present a printed confirmation or display one on a phone/tablet).

If the railway cannot provide the contracted TOD facility on the day they cannot unilaterally make up new terms and conditions and then use them to prevent travel or make someone pay again.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Again, there is no requirement to have an email or printed confirmation to collect a ticket (unlike a Megatrain booking where the passenger must be able to present a printed confirmation or display one on a phone/tablet).

If the railway cannot provide the contracted TOD facility on the day they cannot unilaterally make up new terms and conditions and then use them to prevent travel or make someone pay again.

They signifactly increase the chances of you collecting your ticket though

 

[AlterEgo]

Turned out he had it on his phone.

I was being hypothetical.

What if, during a national ticket machine fault, someone turns up and they have their booking reference and card but not a copy of their confirmation email to hand?

 

[sheff1]

They signifactly increase the chances of you collecting your ticket though

The only time I have ever failed to collect a ticket using the reference written on a scrap of paper was when all the TVMs were down at Sheffield due to flooding and the booking office was closed for the same reason. I travelled with that scrap of paper all the way to Cheltenham.

 

[itsjustmyjob]

The ticket office would not have been able to do it either.

Just out of interest....why?

 

[yorkie]

I bought a walk-on return ticket online ...

From which website?

I understand some retailers are prepared to help their customers in the event of a dispute, and some do read this forum.

and tried to collect at Huddersfield yesterday morning prior to travel with my scribbled down reference number and purchase card. Because of the system fault I was unable to do so. I asked gateline staff what to do and they said not to worry as the fault was known about, to board my train, and to collect my tickets at first opportunity.

Following this advice I boarded a Northern service for my first journey leg to Sheffield. On board I explained the situation when the conductor asked for my ticket. He said if I had neither a ticket nor an email proof of purchase (I had shown him my hand-written reference) I would have to buy a new ticket to my destination. Not having funds for this I declined. I was then asked to buy a new ticket as far as Sheffield. I was not prepared to do this as I may have faced the same problem on all my other trains that day.

This does not surprise me. There have been numerous reports of Northern Guards inventing their own rules. The problem is endemic.

The Ticket on Departure (TOD) code of practice states:

In cases where the Ticket Vending Machine (TVM) is not working and a customer has their CTR reference number and/or appropriate proof of purchase and appropriate identification, the customer will be instructed to board their train and be allowed to travel and advised to collect their tickets at the first available opportunity.

I said that I had been advised by his colleagues at the station to board. He said that Huddersfield was a Transpennine station and their representatives should not have allowed me through the gateline without ticket or email onto a Northern train.

He is wrong.

I said that the fault was evidently a national one, and could he check this? He said that he was well aware of the problem and that Northern's policy was to charge for a new ticket in these circumstances. I again declined.

If that is Northern's policy, then this is a very serious matter, which needs to be escalated to Transport Focus, your MP and the ORR.

Perhaps you could ask someone like Jason Wade at Northern if this is their policy. If he says it is, refer the matter to relevant persons/bodies.

After a lengthy and stressful conversation he came up with a 'work-around'. As it happened, I remembered I did have a device with me which would have the emailed proof of purchase on it, were I able to connect to wifi. The conductor gave me a code to access wifi and I was able to show him the email. I do not know what the outcome would have been if I did not have my device with me (I don't normally travel with it).

Difficult to say; their behaviour and professionalism ranges so much.

Even though a seasoned traveller I was left stressed by the incident and I can well imagine others being put off travelling by rail by similar.

This is not uncommon for how Northern treat people sadly.

 

[Coolzac]

As Yorkie has just said, the way which Northern staff seem to make up rules and treat their customers appallingly never ceases to amaze me.

 

[causton]

Just out of interest....why?

The entire ToD system was down, everywhere! That is why.

 

[Master29]

I would normally have asked at the ticket office and they would do it there. Why wasn`t the OP told to do this as that would surely have been the first opportunity at Huddersfield. That is presuming Huddersfield is manned.

 

[MikeWh]

I would normally have asked at the ticket office and they would do it there. Why wasn`t the OP told to do this as that would surely have been the first opportunity at Huddersfield. That is presuming Huddersfield is manned.

I refer you to the post directly above yours.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The only time I have ever failed to collect a ticket using the reference written on a scrap of paper was when all the TVMs were down at Sheffield due to flooding and the booking office was closed for the same reason. I travelled with that scrap of paper all the way to Cheltenham.

Well i can congratulate you on your transcribing skills and can assure you there far higher than the average member of Joe Public who does it. The internal voice usually says "oh god" when I say scraps of paper at the counter with alleged TOD numbers on them!

 

[toffeedanish]

Thank you for your responses.

-I purchased my ticket from Transpennine (as they have a good interface for ticket buying, and purely to lessen the chances of being delayed at the station).

-I didn't ask at the ticket office as there was a long queue (probably owing to the fault) which would have resulted in me missing my (hourly) train. I had left adequate time to pick up my ticket given normal circumstances. Also, the notice on the machines was a clear one as to the problem, and I was aware that it was highly unlikely that the ticket office would be able to help me.

I didn't ask gateline staff to let me through the barrier per se: I explained my situation and asked their advice. The two gentlemen on the gate opened the barrier for me, told me not to worry, and to collect my tickets at first opportunity.

On the train, I was expecting one of two things: either the conductor knowing of the issue and there being no problem, or the conductor not knowing of the issue and there being a problem. In the latter case I was prepared to stand my ground and ask them to check and clarify.

What I wasn't expecting was them to know of the problem and make the situation my problem, and then I wasn't quite sure if I was in the right or in the wrong. The conductor was very insistent that I would be buying a ticket from him. I expected to be turfed off at Barnsley if I had been just as insistent that I wasn't (this is speculation on my part, but was the impression I was left with after our extended conversation).

I will contact Northern through their normal channels asking what their policy is, quoting the TOD code of practice that Yorkie has kindly looked up and quoted above. I worry about a repeat of the issue.

 

[yorkie]

Let us know how you get on. If you don't get a good response, please do contact me directly if you'd like to escalate the matter, as I am aware of several people who have concerns with Northern who are in the process of trying to get something done about it at a higher level.

 

[pemma]

A scrap of paper with a handwritten reference is not proof that a ticket has been purchased online. The gateline staff should have asked to see something else. An e mail or print off of confirmation.

The gateline staff don't see the problems that people with scraps of paper have in collecting tickets that they believe they have purchased online. The characters they have written down quite often don't match anything in the system and the search by name, post code function rarely resolves things.

Printed email confirmation could be forged as well, or multiple people could try to use the same print outs on different services if the transaction is for walk on tickets. However, if it's the railways' fault that a ticket can't be collected then they should have a system in place which allows people who have already paid to travel.

 

[221129]

Printed email confirmation could be forged as well, or multiple people could try to use the same print outs on different services if the transaction is for walk on tickets. However, if it's the railways' fault that a ticket can't be collected then they should have a system in place which allows people who have already paid to travel.

They have, it's called using the reference.

 

[AlterEgo]

He buys a new ticket and claims back for the one he didn't use.

It isn’t reasonable or legal to make the passenger do this. The passenger has already fulfilled every requirement of them by being prepared to pick up their ticket at the station. The fact they are unable to do so is not their fault.

You cannot require a paying customer to pay for the service rendered a second time in these circumstances.

The proper solution is to allow travel.

 

[yorkie]

A scrap of paper with a handwritten reference is not proof that a ticket has been purchased online. The gateline staff should have asked to see something else. An e mail or print off of confirmation.

The gateline staff don't see the problems that people with scraps of paper have in collecting tickets that they believe they have purchased online. The characters they have written down quite often don't match anything in the system and the search by name, post code function rarely resolves things.

Wrong. Who told you this?

The Ticket on Departure (TOD) code of practice states:

A.3.4.2 In the context of online and telesales, an appropriate proof of purchase shall also mean an approved reference number.

Please do let us know who is giving out this incorrect information to booking office staff, and can you also go back to them and inform them that they need to stop doing this?

He buys a new ticket and claims back for the one he didn't use.

This would be a serious breach of the rules and I believe is unlawful under consumer and contract laws.

 

[AlterEgo]

I must say I’m quite astonished at some of the responses to this thread as well as how the OP was treated. I thought the railway had made some pretty good strides away from the default “oh buy the ticket *again* and sort it out later” which was unacceptable (and not legal in many cases) before the Consumer Rights Act and is completely appalling now.

I just don’t understand how a TOC can possibly think that’s okay as a solution, either legally or morally.

 

[robbeech]

They do it because they will get away with it in the majority of cases. With their threats of criminal records and heavy fines for breaking one of the hundreds of rules they don’t always publish very well a lot of people are frightened by the situation and do as they are told.
My mum gets 2 buses each way (free with a bus pass but 35 minutes each way) to Worksop station to buy a ticket in advance to travel from Whitwell to Nottingham and back because she’s frightened that she will get the wrong ticket from the 1 year old machine or it won’t print it properly again like last time*, or it will be out of order but the guard won’t believe her so she will end up with a fine or having to go to court.
It’s not an unjustified fear either, many of us have witnessed improper procedures by guards which has cost the passenger more money than it should have. Be it like this scenario where it’s not the passengers fault, nor is it the guards fault or whereby a passenger has been unable to purchase a ticket, or a ticket that has no evening peak restriction but they are forced to excess anyway due to lack of knowledge by staff.

We cannot tell how often people are missold tickets for trains where they are not required and that can and is used as an advantage by a minority of staff.
Imagine if we had random phone calls “have you been missold a railway ticket?” Instead of PPI.

Of course what is important to remember is that unfortunately on the flip side, no matter how much of this extra revenue generation goes on it will only be a fraction of the fare evasion that goes on.
But that’s not the law abiding passengers problem either.


*100% failure rate at WWL ticket machine.
100%.
Sometimes outvof order. Sometimes cash only. Sometimes no connection so can’t do TOD sometimes crashes when you select a non EMT station. Sometimes prints only half your tickets.
100% failure rate.
But you’re absolutely for it if you don’t buy a ticket before you board.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I bought a walk-on return ticket online and tried to collect at Huddersfield yesterday morning prior to travel with my scribbled down reference number and purchase card. Because of the system fault I was unable to do so. I asked gateline staff what to do and they said not to worry as the fault was known about, to board my train, and to collect my tickets at first opportunity.

Following this advice I boarded a Northern service for my first journey leg to Sheffield. On board I explained the situation when the conductor asked for my ticket. He said if I had neither a ticket nor an email proof of purchase (I had shown him my hand-written reference) I would have to buy a new ticket to my destination. Not having funds for this I declined. I was then asked to buy a new ticket as far as Sheffield. I was not prepared to do this as I may have faced the same problem on all my other trains that day.

I said that I had been advised by his colleagues at the station to board. He said that Huddersfield was a Transpennine station and their representatives should not have allowed me through the gateline without ticket or email onto a Northern train. I said that the fault was evidently a national one, and could he check this? He said that he was well aware of the problem and that Northern's policy was to charge for a new ticket in these circumstances. I again declined.

After a lengthy and stressful conversation he came up with a 'work-around'. As it happened, I remembered I did have a device with me which would have the emailed proof of purchase on it, were I able to connect to wifi. The conductor gave me a code to access wifi and I was able to show him the email. I do not know what the outcome would have been if I did not have my device with me (I don't normally travel with it). At Sheffield I was able to collect my tickets without further issue.

Before I contact Northern, I would like to canvas opinion here.

My questions are: is Northern's policy in these circumstances as stated by the conductor? If so, should every online ticket interface state that proof of purchase email should be carried at all times in case of a system fault?

Even though a seasoned traveller I was left stressed by the incident and I can well imagine others being put off travelling by rail by similar.

Apologies for the off-topic, but this part intrigued me: what WiFi signal were you accessing on board a train through rural Yorkshire? Do Northern's Pacer fleet secretly have WiFi on board just for staff?

 

[mattmtfc]

It wouldn't cost much to print some slips for platform/gateline staff to hand out in cases like this it would stop a lot of hassle. With these new machines I don't see why conductors shouldn't be able to issue tickets on departure.