A career as a train driver

[MostlyHarmless]

I thought there was just a standard pass mark (although I have heard people mentioned enhanced) which all the TOCs used?

 

[Cheggers]

I thought there was just a standard pass mark (although I have heard people mentioned enhanced) which all the TOCs used?

Hello mate, when I got a breakdown from OPC on my last attempt he said I had An Enhanced pass on all tests bar the TEA-Occ so I concluded there must be a few thresholds that different TOCs use potentially.

 

[MostlyHarmless]

Sounds like they must be although it does seem a little strange. I was only told I had passed and that it was valid for 3 years - and which I assumed, maybe incorrectly, would be valid for any TOC

 

[Dynamonic]

To narrow down candidates, many TOCs now set their own pass marks for the Stage 1 assessments, known as an Enhanced Standard. This 'Enhanced Standard' differs from company to company, and only the OPC and the TOC in question knows what the pass mark is. The OPC will inform you when you sit the tests if you are required to achieve an Enhanced Standard.
If you fail to achieve the Enhanced Standard, you may have still passed to the National Standard. (The TOC will inform you if this is the case)
If you achieved the National Standard, then although you will have unfortunately been unsuccessful with the company you have applied for, after six months you will be eligible to apply for other companies who may accept your Stage One results as they are, or they may only ask you to resit specific tests in which you don't meet their own 'Enhanced Standard'.

Another thing to be aware of is a potential change in the two-life rule. Some people have sadly discovered that some TOCs now count an 'attempt' at the tests as a life, regardless of whether you passed or failed them. That means that it's possible to pass the assessments twice and never be given an opportunity to do them again. Because of this, think long and hard before resitting any OPC assessments to achieve a certain Enhanced Standard.

Finally, some TOCs set different life-spans to your OPC test results. Officially, your passes are valid for up to five years, but some TOCs will only accept them if they're under, say, two years old, for example.


On a less scary note though, I'm not aware of any Enhanced Standards for the Stage 2 OPC assessments.

 

[Cheggers]

To narrow down candidates, many TOCs now set their own pass marks for the Stage 1 assessments, known as an Enhanced Standard. This 'Enhanced Standard' differs from company to company, and only the OPC and the TOC in question knows what the pass mark is. The OPC will inform you when you sit the tests if you are required to achieve an Enhanced Standard.
If you fail to achieve the Enhanced Standard, you may have still passed to the National Standard. (The TOC will inform you if this is the case)
If you achieved the National Standard, then although you will have unfortunately been unsuccessful with the company you have applied for, after six months you will be eligible to apply for other companies who may accept your Stage One results as they are, or they may only ask you to resit specific tests in which you don't meet their own 'Enhanced Standard'.

Another thing to be aware of is a slight change in the two-life rule. Some people have sadly discovered that some TOCs now count an 'attempt' at the tests as a life, regardless of whether you passed or failed them. That means that it's possible to pass the assessments twice and never be given an opportunity to do them again. Because of this, think long and hard before resitting any OPC assessments to achieve a certain Enhanced Standard.

Finally, some TOCs set different life-spans to your OPC test results. Officially, your passes are valid for up to five years, but some TOCs will only accept them if they're under, say, two years old, for example.


On a less scary note though, I'm not aware of any Enhanced Standards for the Stage 2 OPC assessments.

Wow now you’ve made me think. I’ve DM’d you my situation.

 

[Justy]

Another thing to be aware of is a slight change in the two-life rule. Some people have sadly discovered that some TOCs now count an 'attempt' at the tests as a life, regardless of whether you passed or failed them. That means that it's possible to pass the assessments twice and never be given an opportunity to do them again. Because of this, think long and hard before resitting any OPC assessments to achieve a certain Enhanced Standard.

Hi Dynamonic,

Hope you don't mind me replying to your comment, but can you tell me where you found this information out regarding the slight change in the two life rule, even attempting at a test is considered a life whether you passed or failed?

I've only ever applied once, I applied for the trainee depot driver for EMT which you also did, (I was one of the people that did the stage 2 test on the Thursday there was a big group of us) I didn't pass to enhanced rate on all the test hence why I didn't get through to the next stage, but that hasn't deterred me from trying again in the future. But reading what you've just written has made me curious where you found that information out as I wouldn't want to jeopardise myself for the future if an opportunity arose and I didn't feel ready but tried again to apply.
EMT didn't mention nothing apart from saying that my results may be applicable for other companies after 6 months, but that's all I knew.

BTW congratulations on getting through to the talent pool I've read some of your comments throughout the thread and they've been very helpful to majority of people, even those that hadn't registered as a user on here (like me )

 

[MostlyHarmless]

To narrow down candidates, many TOCs now set their own pass marks for the Stage 1 assessments, known as an Enhanced Standard. This 'Enhanced Standard' differs from company to company, and only the OPC and the TOC in question knows what the pass mark is. The OPC will inform you when you sit the tests if you are required to achieve an Enhanced Standard.
If you fail to achieve the Enhanced Standard, you may have still passed to the National Standard. (The TOC will inform you if this is the case)
If you achieved the National Standard, then although you will have unfortunately been unsuccessful with the company you have applied for, after six months you will be eligible to apply for other companies who may accept your Stage One results as they are, or they may only ask you to resit specific tests in which you don't meet their own 'Enhanced Standard'.

Another thing to be aware of is a slight change in the two-life rule. Some people have sadly discovered that some TOCs now count an 'attempt' at the tests as a life, regardless of whether you passed or failed them. That means that it's possible to pass the assessments twice and never be given an opportunity to do them again. Because of this, think long and hard before resitting any OPC assessments to achieve a certain Enhanced Standard.

Finally, some TOCs set different life-spans to your OPC test results. Officially, your passes are valid for up to five years, but some TOCs will only accept them if they're under, say, two years old, for example.


On a less scary note though, I'm not aware of any Enhanced Standards for the Stage 2 OPC assessments.

This is really useful, but at the risk of sounding stupid, what constitutes stage 1 and stage 2 tests? I did about 9 in the one day - although you had to pass each section to proceed to the next. After all that I was told I had passed and the next bit was the DMI.

 

[Dynamonic]

Hi Dynamonic,

Hope you don't mind me replying to your comment, but can you tell me where you found this information out regarding the slight change in the two life rule, even attempting at a test is considered a life whether you passed or failed?

I've only ever applied once, I applied for the trainee depot driver for EMT which you also did, (I was one of the people that did the stage 2 test on the Thursday there was a big group of us) I didn't pass to enhanced rate on all the test hence why I didn't get through to the next stage, but that hasn't deterred me from trying again in the future. But reading what you've just written has made me curious where you found that information out as I wouldn't want to jeopardise myself for the future if an opportunity arose and I didn't feel ready but tried again to apply.
EMT didn't mention nothing apart from saying that my results may be applicable for other companies after 6 months, but that's all I knew.

BTW congratulations on getting through to the talent pool I've read some of your comments throughout the thread and they've been very helpful to majority of people, even those that hadn't registered as a user on here (like me )

Hi Justy, and thank you for kind words.

I suspect that the two-life rule has changed, or at least some TOCs are setting their own threshold because of the following:

1. I've noticed that at least a couple of people on this forum have been prevented from taking the Stage One OPC assessment more than twice when they technically have only one fail on record. For example, one person failed one attempt, then passed the second to national standard but then was told they're ineligible to take the tests a third time (by an Enhanced Standard TOC) as they'd already sat the tests twice.

2. The Pre-Application Questionnaire for EMT, who I applied for asked a question along the lines of, 'Have you sat any part of the Train Driver Assessment Process twice before?'

3. The Candidate Form at the Stage One OPC Assessment Centre asks a question along the lines of, 'Have you previously undertaken this assessment twice before?'

These have led me to believe that the two-life rule is now stricter than it was under the old testing system. I'm happy to be corrected on this if people have different experiences under the new (2013 - ) testing system, but thought it important to make people aware of it, just in case.

Looking back at my post, I should have put 'potential change to the two-life rule', as I'm unable to find official documentation to confirm it. I'll edit that in now to avoid confusion.

This is really useful, but at the risk of sounding stupid, what constitutes stage 1 and stage 2 tests? I did about 9 in the one day - although you had to pass each section to proceed to the next. After all that I was told I had passed and the next bit was the DMI.

Hi MostlyHarmless,

In your case, you would have done Stage One and Two on the same day.

Stage One involves the paper tests, and Stage Two involves the computer tests, Situational Judgement Exercise and Multi-Modal Interview.

They're split up like that because many TOCs split the two stages across different days.

 

[MostlyHarmless]

Ah thanks... apparently the MMI is after the DMI (assuming you pass the latter) for my TOC

So much for 'national standards' eh!

 

[baz962]

Hey peep's, what Dynamonic mean's is that if you pass the test's to national standard, then want to go for enhanced, and then fail to national standard on that attempt, then it wipes out the first national pass. I had heard this and asked at the opc, and I was told this was the case.

 

[Dynamonic]

After re-reading through some PM's and documents I've had over the last few months, I wish to clarify what I have written above:

The official RSSB guidelines that I have to hand state that a candidate cannot fail the tests more than once. (This document is also in the Group Bourdon thread above) In theory, this would suggest that you can pass the tests as many times as is needed in order to secure the driver role, provided you don't fail twice at any point.

However, looking at some of my recent PMs, it appears that if you fail to reach some particular TOCs' Enhanced Standards, then it could count as a life lost with that particular TOC you are applying for, and potentially some others who hold an enhanced standard too. (Even if you had sat those tests previously with other TOCs) This appears to be up to the individual TOC and is not a rule as such.

Sorry for any confusion I may have caused earlier, and hopefully, this clears things up for you.


What baz962 says above me is also true! Your test results will always replace older tests, whether it's better or worse.

 

[Justy]

Thanks Dynamonic and Baz for the detailed information and quick response, really helpful to know and at least to keep in mind for any future applications for driver roles. It's cleared my mind so thanks for the information

 

[Divermckay]

Well Ladies and Gentlemen. On my 4th and final attempt I gone and bl@#dy passed. Unofficially I start driving course in October.
The 2 hand coordination (joystick) that I failed last time was different. The sticks had collars around the base. The left and right stick could only move on that axis, up and down stick the same. The interview was also a lot more relaxed and bordered on a friendly chat. Thanks for the hints and tips from the forum members.

 

[Dynamonic]

Congratulations Divermckay!

 

[Divermckay]

These are the 5 scenarios I was asked for the interview.
1, explain a time when you had to take control of a difficult or dangerous situation.
2, explain a role that you have carried out that is similar to the role of train driver.
3, describe an occasion when you have had to persevere to learn or achieve something.
4, when have you had to carry out a task and be very careful not to make a mistake.
5, when have you had to go above and beyond your normal role to meet the needs of a customer.

 

[MostlyHarmless]

Well Ladies and Gentlemen. On my 4th and final attempt I gone and bl@#dy passed. Unofficially I start driving course in October.
The 2 hand coordination (joystick) that I failed last time was different. The sticks had collars around the base. The left and right stick could only move on that axis, up and down stick the same. The interview was also a lot more relaxed and bordered on a friendly chat. Thanks for the hints and tips from the forum members.

Firstly, well done! You must be thrilled!

What interview was it you had btw, and it was the 4th attempt at what?

 

[Divermckay]

Firstly, well done! You must be thrilled!

What interview was it you had btw, and it was the 4th attempt at what?

I had previously sat the old psychometric test and failed the interview. I got sent back a year later to re do the interview and failed again. Interviewer contradicted her colleague from my previous attempt. Then as we all know the scores were reset when the new test was introduced. I failed my 1st attempt at the hand coordination (joystick) exercise. The person who administered the test informed me I wouldn't progress to the interview (since she was the person who failed me previously I was both glad I didnt have to deal with her and sad that I might have to later). I decided I wasnt going to pursue a driving career. Three attempts was enough.
At the end of last year I was offered another chance. I knew if I didnt take it I would always wonder "what if?". So I decided to go for it because even if I failed, I would definitely know I would never be a driver. I borrowed a ps4, bought the cd rom from the how2 become mob and practised a lot.

When I was set up with the computer on the day I noticed immediately that the joysticks had collars at the base which restricted the movement. My earlier attempt, these collars were absent and the sticks very loose and unrestricted. I asked the man about this and he was very surprised and said he would look into it.
I was told I had passed this and would progress to the situational judgement exercise (questionaire on the computer which isnt a pass or fail but guides the questions for the interview). The interview I think is now called a multimodel interview (mmi). Im guessing its multi due to the fact they use the answers from the computer questionnaire to guide what they ask you. It was maybe the interviewer who was more relaxed and friendly rather than the hostile previous encountered interviewer but I found it much easier and passed what would have been my 2nd and final attempt.

I had already had managers interviews and medicals so this was the last hurdle.

 

[Dynamonic]

That's a great story of perseverance Divermckay, and proof that you should never give up on the dream! Well done!!!

Out of interest, as I never went through the old testing system, how do you think they compare?

 

[Divermckay]

Ive been a shunter for 10 years in May this year. 8 years ago I sat my first driver assessment.
My opinion about the tests old and new. The old test, to me was all about the candidates ability to learn rules and retain knowledge. The interview was inconsistent. Different assessment centres, interviewers seemed to look for differing results. It was very much down to the personal opinion of the interviewer. This shouldn't have been the case, but I found out to my annoyance that it definitely was. If they didnt like the look of you, you were wasting your time. No appeal process (still the case). No credit given for rail experience (still no direct credit for the new one, but the new interview gives a better chance to explain any experience you have).
The new test now incorporates parts of the old test ie bourdon, glop train, mechanical comprehension but these are part 1 (if I remember correctly). Part 2 is all about the practical ability to concentrate for long times (staring at a computer for 30) change focus quickly (street scenes flashed up) these I think are very relevant. The 2 hand test I couldnt see the relevance of. I would change that part back to the old bells and whistles.
Over all I think the new test is more relevant. I would like to see more credit given for railway experience in a safety critical role. If you couldnt learn and follow rules you would be sacked or killed but you still get treated the same as someone off the street. I would also prefer a panel interview so the decision isnt down to one persons mood/ opinion.

 

[RollingOn]

These are the 5 scenarios I was asked for the interview.
1, explain a time when you had to take control of a difficult or dangerous situation.
2, explain a role that you have carried out that is similar to the role of train driver.
3, describe an occasion when you have had to persevere to learn or achieve something.
4, when have you had to carry out a task and be very careful not to make a mistake.
5, when have you had to go above and beyond your normal role to meet the needs of a customer.

I'm surprised at question 5. I thought for the MMI the questions would surely be all about safety and concentration rather than customer service.

 

[Dynamonic]

Question 5 wasn’t in my recent MMI, unless it used to part of the old testing system.

 

[RingingEars66]

OK, so I'm new here and there's a LOT of information on this regarding TOCs and their requirements. If there's anyone interested in finding out about Freight operating companies, I hope that throwing in my lot will help...

I work for a FOC and to be honest, becoming a driver is almost a mysterious process. There's a lot of ex-BR faces out there coming close to retirement and a growing number of younger faces working up through the ranks. I'm in the last stages of driver training and all I can really say to anyone looking to become a train driver in the freight side of the railway is this; consider getting your foot in the door first, even as ground staff. FOCs don't really take people off the street. It's not unheard of, but when it does happen, I'm sorry to say that it's often a friend or family member of someone with influence higher up. Unfortunately, I started my railway career with a new (at the time) FOC and they promised us the world, but then employed sons and nephews with NO prior railway experience. HOWEVER, there are companies (blue and orange for example) who don't follow that line of employment. I had to move companies and location to even have a chance of being looked at for driving. At this new company, there's actually a queue of their own ground staff who have proved their work ethic and railway understanding, waiting for a spot on the next drivers course. They must have promoted 30 to 40 of their ground staff to drivers in the last year!
So, working for a freight company will most likely require you to get a foot in the door and prove yourself by working your way up. There isn't really another way to do it within the freight sector. Once you've applied internally and been successful, they sort the rest. Lots of work and commitment required, but in my opinion, far more rewarding at the end.

 

[Divermckay]

The above and beyond for a customer question led onto questions like "would you cut corners to complete a task?" "Would you consider bending or breaking rules to achieve a goal?"
I was surprised when I was asked "would you ever consider breaking the rules?" Surely nobody in their right mind applying for a safety critical rail job would answer yes.

 

[Dot2018]

TEA-OCC questions

• How many high/low tones can I expect to hear? tens, hundreds?
• Do people think the exact number of tones is required for a pass?
• Are you allowed to use scrap paper to tally up the tone count?
• Part 3 (combined tones/directory) is a consistent tone or high/low too?

 

[Dynamonic]

TEA-OCC questions

• How many high/low tones can I expect to hear? tens, hundreds?
• Do people think the exact number of tones is required for a pass?
• Are you allowed to use scrap paper to tally up the tone count?
• Part 3 (combined tones/directory) is a consistent tone or high/low too?

Hi HarryBflower,

The tones will play in small groups, and after each group, the tape narrator will ask you to write down your answer to the corresponding question number.
The exact number of tones is required for your answer to be correct, but the actual pass mark will likely vary from TOC to TOC if enhanced scoring is used.
You are not allowed to tally the tone count. It must be done in your head.
Part 3 uses consistent tones.

Good luck!

 

[MostlyHarmless]

TEA-OCC questions

• How many high/low tones can I expect to hear? tens, hundreds?
• Do people think the exact number of tones is required for a pass?
• Are you allowed to use scrap paper to tally up the tone count?
• Part 3 (combined tones/directory) is a consistent tone or high/low too?

What Dynamonic said in essence...

1. Each small group of tones will be in the tens maximum
2. You need the exact amount but you are told to write down what you think even if you lose count, as you are not penalised for a wrong answer in this test
3. Nope... I'm not ashamed to say I used my fingers for a couple of them!
4. Consistent low tone

And good luck also!

 

[Dot2018]

cheers guys, helpful as ever

 

[Dot2018]

Is the speed of this realistic?

Skip to 0:49 for beeps

 

[MostlyHarmless]

Seems faster than mine was...

 

[Dot2018]

Seems faster than mine was...

This one I found is a little slower https://traineetraindriverinfo.com/low-tones-test-track-1/