Michael Gove wants to take us back in time with rubbish disposal

[pemma]

People in England will soon have to pay a deposit when they buy drinks bottles and cans in a bid to boost recycling and cut waste.

The deposit will increase prices - but consumers will get the money back if they return the container.

The scheme is expected to cover single-use glass and plastic bottles, and steel and aluminium cans.

Full details are subject to consultation and yet to be decided, including how big the deposit will be.

Environment Secretary Michael Gove said there was no doubt that plastic was "wreaking havoc" on the marine environment and discarded plastic bottles and cans "end up dumped on pavements and lobbed into rivers, lakes and the sea".

"We have already banned harmful microbeads and cut plastic bag use, and now we want to take action on plastic bottles to help clean up our oceans," he said.

"We need to see a change in attitudes and behaviour. And the evidence shows that reward and return schemes are a powerful agent of change."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-43563164

So when I was little there was no plastic or cardboard recycling and bottles had to be taken to the bottle bank. Now we have the convenience of kerbside recycling bins but under Gove's plans if we continue to use them we'll be taxed for using them.

 

[Clip]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-43563164

So when I was little there was no plastic or cardboard recycling and bottles had to be taken to the bottle bank. Now we have the convenience of kerbside recycling bins but under Gove's plans if we continue to use them we'll be taxed for using them.

yeah never mind about all the plastics that are entering our seas and ocean lets complain about being 'taxed' for them. Thatll really help the massive problem we have now with people discarding their rubbish in normal bins or in the countryside.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm in support of this. The "bag tax" has proven massively successful, and so will a deposit bottle scheme, which was never abolished in recycling-minded countries like Germany. Hopefully it will also lead to an increase in reusable bottles by manufacturers rather than single-use ones. Reduce, reuse, recycle - in THAT order.

I think what I'd do is put a higher deposit on single-use bottles than reusable ones, though, to encourage this.

 

[pemma]

The "bag tax" has proven massively successful

The bag tax has reduced the number of bags issued, not necessarily increased the proportion of bags recycled.

Reduce, reuse, recycle - in THAT order.

I think what I'd do is put a higher deposit on single-use bottles than reusable ones, though, to encourage this.

Many diaries who do door step deliveries collect and reuse glass bottles, the system works without needing the customer to pay a deposit or the milkmen to record how many empty bottles they collect from each household.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The bag tax has reduced the number of bags issued, not necessarily increased the proportion of bags recycled.

What it demonstrates is that a fee, even a small fee, drives consumer behaviour very strongly indeed.

Many diaries who do door step deliveries collect and reuse glass bottles, the system works without needing the customer to pay a deposit or the milkmen to record how many empty bottles they collect from each household.

Consider how many more people would partake of a milk delivery if they had to pay 50p extra per single-use plastic milk bottle otherwise.

By the way, the scheme *doesn't* apply to reusable glass bottles, so will not affect traditional milkmen.

 

[pemma]

What it demonstrates is that a fee, even a small fee, drives consumer behaviour very strongly indeed.

But what changes are consumers expected to make? I don't know of a single household that doesn't use their recycling bin, yet most people I know (including myself) didn't always bother taking shopping bags to go shopping when supermarkets gave out bags for free. I can't see putting a deposit on a 2L concentrate bottle of Ribena making any difference to recycling but perhaps deposits put on 'on the go' items like a 500ml ready to drink bottle of Ribena you might pick up as part of a meal deal in Boots perhaps would.

Currently there's a report on ITV News saying we already recycle too much plastic compared to the amount of demand for recycled plastic.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But what changes are consumers expected to make?

Ideally, producers and consumers should switch to multi-use glass and plastic as is the norm in Germany.

Reduce (not possible in this case if you want to purchase liquid from a shop), so re-use. You don't get to recycle. Recycle is last; you only recycle if you can't reduce or re-use.

Currently there's a report on ITV News saying we already recycle too much plastic compared to the amount of demand for recycled plastic.

Hence why I think we should move to reusable bottles.

 

[The_Engineer]

But what changes are consumers expected to make? I don't know of a single household that doesn't use their recycling bin, yet most people I know (including myself) didn't always bother taking shopping bags to go shopping when supermarkets gave out bags for free. I can't see putting a deposit on a 2L concentrate bottle of Ribena making any difference to recycling but perhaps deposits put on 'on the go' items like a 500ml ready to drink bottle of Ribena you might pick up as part of a meal deal in Boots perhaps would.

Currently there's a report on ITV News saying we already recycle too much plastic compared to the amount of demand for recycled plastic.

It's not about how much we recycle, it's about reducing the amount of plastic going into our environment. It's better the plastic is all collected even if not all recycled - excess could be burnt to generate power.

 

[pemma]

yeah never mind about all the plastics that are entering our seas and ocean lets complain about being 'taxed' for them. Thatll really help the massive problem we have now with people discarding their rubbish in normal bins or in the countryside.

So you're saying it's fair to tax responsible people because of the actions of irresponsible people. What's going to happen to the less well off pensioners who would have difficulty taking items to recycling banks?

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

I'm not quite sure I understand how this scheme works or how it could reduce the amount of plastics going into the oceans. I mean, for one thing, even with bins available I've still seen rubbish all over the street and plastics being littered everywhere (which is not only bad for the environment, but just genuinely looks terrible), so what could this scheme potentially do to help with plastic pollution? Again, I'm not entirely sure how it works in Germany and Sweden etc. (if you were to explain it to me, you might have to be simple or detailed, but sadly I won't know which. Apologies).

 

[NSEFAN]

So you're saying it's fair to tax responsible people because of the actions of irresponsible people. What's going to happen to the less well off pensioners who would have difficulty taking items to recycling banks?

The problem of plastic recycling seems to be more than just individuals chucking a bottle in a river. Many tons of the stuff is entering the water supplies and needs to be systematically reduced, so I think changing behaviour using financial incentives to reduce consumption is a good way forward. Personally I'd prefer we use more glass bottles and jars instead of plastic, as it's easier to recycle and has a much longer lifetime.

 

[pemma]

The problem of plastic recycling seems to be more than just individuals chucking a bottle in a river. Many tons of the stuff is entering the water supplies and needs to be systematically reduced, so I think changing behaviour using financial incentives to reduce consumption is a good way forward. Personally I'd prefer we use more glass bottles and jars instead of plastic, as it's easier to recycle and has a much longer lifetime.

If the government wants manufacturers to change what type of packaging items get then the incentive/penalty for using different materials should be given to manufacturers not consumers.

 

[NSEFAN]

If the government wants manufacturers to change what type of packaging items get then the incentive/penalty for using different materials should be given to manufacturers not consumers.

I agree that manufacturers should be made to change materials, although the consumers will pay one way or another.

 

[krus_aragon]

Speaking as someone who lives west of Offa's Dyke, I can picture the residents of Chester crossing the border to buy their bottled drinks, and the residents of Deeside giving their empties to friends on the other side of the border to cash in!

 

[507021]

If the government wants manufacturers to change what type of packaging items get then the incentive/penalty for using different materials should be given to manufacturers not consumers.

I completely agree with this.

 

[tony_mac]

So you're saying it's fair to tax responsible people because of the actions of irresponsible people. What's going to happen to the less well off pensioners who would have difficulty taking items to recycling banks?

If you have the means to buy plastic bottles then you have the means to return them. (i.e., at the same shop, or via the same delivery system)

I'm not entirely sure how it works in Germany

http://www.ukgermanconnection.org/kids-bottle-recycling-machines

 

[pemma]

In the case of old Rose it might be she phones up her friends to ask her to get some items as she's unable to do it herself. So is Rose's friend supposed to drive an extra 2 miles to collect the empty bottles on her way to the supermarket or is she supposed to take them with her afterwards and store them at her house until next time she does shopping for Rose?

 

[thejuggler]

Give it a few years and it will be like India. Hoards of children scrabbling around waste dumps and railway platforms looking for plastic bottles.

All part of the grand plan to return to Victorian Britain.

 

[Bevan Price]

I'm in support of this. The "bag tax" has proven massively successful, and so will a deposit bottle scheme, which was never abolished in recycling-minded countries like Germany. Hopefully it will also lead to an increase in reusable bottles by manufacturers rather than single-use ones. Reduce, reuse, recycle - in THAT order.

Unfortunately, the Govt. seem reluctant to do anything about one of the biggest source of waste plastic - the large plastic sacks pushed through letterboxes with monotonous regularity by charities (real or pretend), despite a notice asking them not to do so. How they expect people to fill several sacks per month is beyond my comprehension.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

So many questions, so few details!

The amount of waste littering the country is disgusting, but that is all types of packaging waste not just plastic bottles. How about a tax on sandwich packaging, plastic trays for salads, take-away food cartons, drinks cartons. I think the proposed tax on plastic bottles is grandstanding for quick political gain because it is the current 'must respond to' issue.

I buy bottled water for drinking. It's very convenient when going out for a walk - stick a bottle in your pocket and away you go. I re-use some bottles, I bin or re-cycle all eventually. The reason I buy it is because Stoke-on-Trent tap water tastes awful and smells of chemicals. I am sure it is quite legal and safe but it is awful. I pay £2.00 for 12 x 500ml (16.67p each). Add 20p per bottle recycling charge!

How will I reclaim my deposit? The councils do not want their re-cycling income to be reduced. The local Tesco had one of those clever re-cycling machines but it was removed when the contractor changed. Will the new collection points be widespread and sufficiently local? Fire up the diesel Jeeves, lets drive to the bottle bank! If it is located at the current council bulky waste centre I will be unable to reclaim my deposit because pedestrians are prohibited. Oh I can see a good earner for the council here at my expense.

How much of the current plastic collected for re-cycling actually gets re-cycled? I seem to recall the Chinese won't have it anymore, plus I keep reading about 'accidental' fires at storage sites with thousands of tons of plastic baled up but sitting there for ages until it mysteriously 'goes on fire' as the Scots say. Plus warehouses filled with the stuff where the tenant simply disappears!

I remember the deposits on glass bottles (pop and beer). What a wheeze for us kids to sneak into the yard at night and take the bottles back twice!

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Unfortunately, the Govt. seem reluctant to do anything about one of the biggest source of waste plastic - the large plastic sacks pushed through letterboxes with monotonous regularity by charities (real or pretend), despite a notice asking them not to do so. How they expect people to fill several sacks per month is beyond my comprehension.

You can't even use the sacks for something else because the material is so thin! They could at least have the decency to give me a nice strong sack for decorating etc rubbish!

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Consider how many more people would partake of a milk delivery if they had to pay 50p extra per single-use plastic milk bottle otherwise.

Then I would take my jug to the milk seller and ask for it to be filled from a large milk churn. Just like the old days. Can't see Tesco going for that one.

 

[GusB]

The whole idea of deposit bottles is hardly new. In my student days, Irn Bru bottles were considered to be currency and woebetide anyone who nicked a bottle when you were trying to scrape together enough cash to buy anything from the local shop/chippy/whatever! When I had my first bar job, the instructions were fairly clear - everything went in the bottle bin except Holsten Pils (does that exist any more?), and Schweppes mixers. These bottles went straight back into the crate and were returned when the next delivery arrived. I messed up a few times by putting things in the wrong places, but when it was explained that money was given back on certain bottles, all became clear (or brown in the case of Holsten Pils )

It pisses me off that some products that used to arrive in glass bottles now come in plastic packaging. Until a few years ago, we still had doorstep milk deliveries: glass bottles with aluminium foil tops. Recyclable. Eventually they introduced plastic tops, then slowly the glass bottles were replaced with plastic. The final straw was that the plastic bottles were 500ml as opposed to the 568ml in a proper pint, and they assumed we wouldn't notice. By then ASDA were delivering to our village, and milk has such a long life these days that it wasn't worthwhile paying the extra money per pint that the "local" (since taken over by Wiseman/Muller) dairy was charging.

Olive oil is another product I use regularly, and it also now arrives in plastic bottles.

I think one of the biggest issues is that home recycling is inconsistent across the country. Here we have five receptacles for waste (each collection is fortnightly):
1) Pink bin for plastic and metal "recyclables"*
2) Blue bin for paper
3) Brown bin for garden and food waste
4) Orange box for glass
5) Green bin for all other general household stuff that doesn't go anywhere else.

The amount that goes in the Green, general bin has decreased significantly. That is to be expected as we recycle more and send less to landfill. The amount going in the pink bin has gone up quite considerably, while we put the glass box out once a month these days.

 

[eMeS]

Here in Milton Keynes, I still have my milk delivered in glass bottles - 3 deliveries per week. It used to be from a local dairy/distribution depot, but now it comes from Bedford - around 18 miles away, and the service has been very reliable over the last 30 years.
Returning from leave back in the 1950s I remember travelling on early morning "milk trains" - I can't imagine that they've survived.

 

[HSTEd]

I assume Council Tax will be dropping now there will be no need to provide seperate bottle and can bins for recycling at the kerbside.

If material that was going into bins ends up in the ocean I'd be more concerns about how that happened than taxing people.
I'm afraid that in most cases recycling is simply not worth the money - waste should be disposed of properly but in most cases painstakingly sorting it into a million different items is simply not worth it.

It's better to simply dispose of it rapidly and cleanly in a gasifier or incinerator, preferably as rapidly as possible after collection.
Repeated recycling depot fires have likely produced more air pollution than simply immediately incinerating all the waste would have done, and have cost huge sums of money which could have been spent elsewhere.

How many millions of pounds and millions of manhours will be expended maintaining this enormous and superfluous collection infrastructure?
It would be better to provide a bounty on plastic removed from the British EEZ that is turned over to the British authorities for incineration.

yeah never mind about all the plastics that are entering our seas and ocean lets complain about being 'taxed' for them. Thatll really help the massive problem we have now with people discarding their rubbish in normal bins or in the countryside.

So material from normal bins gets into the ocean?
Perhaps maybe we should deal with that problem first.

If we want to remove material from the ocean - maybe we should remove it from the ocean rather than messing around with a bottle return scheme.

 

[Sebastian O]

In the case of old Rose it might be she phones up her friends to ask her to get some items as she's unable to do it herself. So is Rose's friend supposed to drive an extra 2 miles to collect the empty bottles on her way to the supermarket or is she supposed to take them with her afterwards and store them at her house until next time she does shopping for Rose?

Yes, either way is suitable. And in response to your repeated rants that it’s a tax - it’s a deposit on the bottle. Who says it’ll be two miles? You may as well be asking ‘well what happens if aliens land the night before I return my bottles and the world is burnt to a crisp - how on earth would I get my deposit back?!’

I personally don’t think it’s unresonable? Or is this just another thing to rant at because ‘some politician is judging me to do the right thing rather than trash the worlds oceans?!’

 

[EM2]

So you're saying it's fair to tax responsible people because of the actions of irresponsible people.

It is not a tax. It is a deposit, something that you will get back if you make the effort.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Here in Milton Keynes, I still have my milk delivered in glass bottles - 3 deliveries per week. It used to be from a local dairy/distribution depot, but now it comes from Bedford - around 18 miles away, and the service has been very reliable over the last 30 years.
Returning from leave back in the 1950s I remember travelling on early morning "milk trains" - I can't imagine that they've survived.

If driving it from Bedford bothers you there is a local depot for one of the delivery companies, it's in Bond Avenue somewhere.

 

[pemma]

It is not a tax. It is a deposit, something that you will get back if you make the effort.

That's my point. If you continue to dispose of items in your recycling bin you'll lose the deposits so it's effectively a tax for using kerbside recycling. It's also interesting to note some are questioning whether kerbside recycling might be withdrawn altogether as if you remove plastic and glass from it then it becomes a lot less viable for local councils to do.

 

[Clip]

What it demonstrates is that a fee, even a small fee, drives consumer behaviour very strongly indeed.
.

It has worked however the supermarkets themselves still throw away thousands of them in their online operations so more needs to be done to combat that too - it cant just be the consumer who has to do this

So you're saying it's fair to tax responsible people because of the actions of irresponsible people. What's going to happen to the less well off pensioners who would have difficulty taking items to recycling banks?

Ahh yes wheel out the 'old pensioner' line as some form of valid reasoning.

I mean if theyre able to go out and purchase plastic bottled products then im sure they can easily return them dont you think? If you had followed the story a bit more then you will find that you wont have to go to a recycling centre as there will be 'Return' places at large supermarkets and other places as is the case in the other 40 odd countries that currently run a similar projects.

More than a third of our plastics are not recycled in this country and anyone who thinks that this isnt a good thing is simply bonkers in my opinion

That's my point. If you continue to dispose of items in your recycling bin you'll lose the deposits so it's effectively a tax for using kerbside recycling. It's also interesting to note some are questioning whether kerbside recycling might be withdrawn altogether as if you remove plastic and glass from it then it becomes a lot less viable for local councils to do.

a good thing - though the councils will still have to pick up paper/cardboard and garden waste and hopefully will see companies like coke et al to use more recycled product in their bottles as they still use large amounts of fresh plastic which in itself is highly damaging to the environment - are you saying thats a bad thing because you may lose the ability to use kerbside recycling?