Questions about the fuel for DMUs

[Madspotman]

I was wondering what fuel do diesel trains use? Is it normal petrol?

 

[Dieseldriver]

I was wondering what fuel do diesel trains use? Is it normal petrol?

Diesel?

 

[hexagon789]

I was wondering what fuel do diesel trains use? Is it normal petrol?

While petrol railcars have been used in Britain in the past, Diesel fuel is used these days hence the description - Diesel Multiple Unit. What varies is how the engine power is transmitted to the wheels.

 

[superkev]

Presumably trains and plant are allowed to use red (low tax) diesel.
K

 

[hexagon789]

Presumably trains and plant are allowed to use red (low tax) diesel.
K

I believe so, certainly they get it cheaper than private road users.

 

[Madspotman]

Sorry meant diesel obviously not petrol

 

[hexagon789]

Sorry meant diesel obviously not petrol

I'm I right in thinking that what you meant perhaps was whether the diesel in diesel cars could be used in diesel trains?

 

[Madspotman]

Y

I'm I right in thinking that what you meant perhaps was whether the diesel in diesel cars could be used in diesel trains?

Yes

 

[hexagon789]

Y

Yes

It's broadly the same stuff as in cars but Red Diesel so doesn't contain certain additives and lubricants and obviously cannot legally be used by ordinary motorists.

 

[randyrippley]

Cheap smelly crude diesel, as opposed to the (relatively) deodourised stuff used in cars

 

[hexagon789]

Cheap smelly crude diesel, as opposed to the (relatively) deodourised stuff used in cars

The clag wouldn't be the same otherwise!

 

[TractiveEffort]

It's broadly the same stuff as in cars but Red Diesel so doesn't contain certain additives and lubricants and obviously cannot legally be used by ordinary motorists.

The only difference is the red additive, red diesel or gas oil, is now the equivalent of DERV EN950, modern engines like MTU won’t put up with being run on crap fuel. It is rated at a lower duty rate and the red additive, which as well as dying the diesel, leaves a marker in it, is the only difference.

 

[hwl]

The only difference is the red additive, red diesel or gas oil, is now the equivalent of DERV EN950, modern engines like MTU won’t put up with being run on crap fuel. It is rated at a lower duty rate and the red additive, which as well as dying the diesel, leaves a marker in it, is the only difference.

Indeed the 2 are effectively identical bar the red marker since 1st Jan 2011 when the gas oil (NRMM) spec changed to match the low sulphur requirements in the Fuel Quality Directive (1g Sulphur/ kg fuel to 10mg / kg)
Red diesel is also less likely to have any biodiesel component in it.

 

[hexagon789]

The only difference is the red additive, red diesel or gas oil, is now the equivalent of DERV EN950, modern engines like MTU won’t put up with being run on crap fuel. It is rated at a lower duty rate and the red additive, which as well as dying the diesel, leaves a marker in it, is the only difference.

I wasn't aware that the red dye was the only difference, I thought there were other minor components which set it apart from regular diesel.

 

[broadgage]

Red diesel as used on the railway USED to be a slightly lower grade than the diesel sold for cars.
These days it is exactly the same apart from the red dye added to it.

Red diesel may be lawfully used for almost any purpose, except for vehicles used on the public roads. Examples include trains, agricultural machines, boats, ships, generators, and oil burning heating.
There are a number of minor exceptions, for example a tractor used primarily on a farm may be fuelled with red diesel even when using public roads to move from one field to another.
Refrigerated trucks can use red diesel in the separate engine that powers the cooling, but like any other truck must use white diesel in the road engine.
AFAIK the rules only apply to internal combustion engine powered vehicles. So if you have an oil burning steam vehicle, red diesel may be used in it, even on public roads.

Overseas rules differ, in the UK ALL boats and ships may use red diesel, but in parts of Europe only working boats and ships may use red diesel, pleasure craft must the more costly road fuel. British boat owners visiting such places must be able to prove that any red diesel on board was purchased in the UK.

Red or railway diesel will work just fine in a diesel car, but such use is a serious criminal offence.
White or road diesel is entirely suitable for a train, but such use would be very exceptional due to the cost.

 

[hexagon789]

Red diesel as used on the railway USED to be a slightly lower grade than the diesel sold for cars.
These days it is exactly the same apart from the red dye added to it.

Red diesel may be lawfully used for almost any purpose, except for vehicles used on the public roads. Examples include trains, agricultural machines, boats, ships, generators, and oil burning heating.
There are a number of minor exceptions, for example a tractor used primarily on a farm may be fuelled with red diesel even when using public roads to move from one field to another.
Refrigerated trucks can use red diesel in the separate engine that powers the cooling, but like any other truck must use white diesel in the road engine.
AFAIK the rules only apply to internal combustion engine powered vehicles. So if you have an oil burning steam vehicle, red diesel may be used in it, even on public roads.

Overseas rules differ, in the UK ALL boats and ships may use red diesel, but in parts of Europe only working boats and ships may use red diesel, pleasure craft must the more costly road fuel. British boat owners visiting such places must be able to prove that any red diesel on board was purchased in the UK.

Red or railway diesel will work just fine in a diesel car, but such use is a serious criminal offence.
White or road diesel is entirely suitable for a train, but such use would be very exceptional due to the cost.

Thank you for clearing that up, a very clear informative explanation.

 

[Raul_Duke]

.Red or railway diesel will work just fine in a diesel car, but such use is a serious criminal offence.
White or road diesel is entirely suitable for a train, but such use would be very exceptional due to the cost.

I’d be interested to see what a HST would run like on a tank full of V-Power diesel...

 

[Non Multi]

I thought they used kerosene-diesel mix during winter, for a lower flash point.

 

[scott118]

I was under the impression that it was all down to the cetane ratings of each fuel. Red has a marker within it to help VOSA identify who is using what, in which road vehicle... (the dye can be removed, however it doesn't work well in hdi engines..) Or at least, that's what a 'friend of mine' informs me..

All diesel loco's/dmu/OTM's run on red. Winter red, reduces the oil from 'waxing', when the temperature gets colder..

 

[BestWestern]

I thought they used kerosene-diesel mix during winter, for a lower flash point.

Was this not stopped after one of the GWML accidents? I seem to recall it having been mentioned as a significant contributary factor to the fatality count.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Was this not stopped after one of the GWML accidents? I seem to recall it having been mentioned as a significant contributary factor to the fatality count.

I don't think so; I've smelt it quite a lot in recent years. The exhaust is distinctly different, more like being at an airport than at a station. There was at least one TOC that seemed to be using it all through the summer last year as well...

 

[KingDaveRa]

Red or railway diesel will work just fine in a diesel car, but such use is a serious criminal offence.
White or road diesel is entirely suitable for a train, but such use would be very exceptional due to the cost.

I believe it all comes down to the amount of tax paid, is that right? What is the difference in cost?

Interesting how the railways and marine get to use red, but road hauliers and buses don't.

 

[hexagon789]

I believe it all comes down to the amount of tax paid, is that right? What is the difference in cost?

About half I think.

 

[KingDaveRa]

About half I think.

Best part of three grand to fill up an HST then - well, just over £5.5k to fill both ends! Wonder how far you'd get on that much?

 

[Elecman]

During the last major delivery tanker drivers dispute Essential Railway road vehicles were given a dispensation to use Red Diesel from train fuelling points . However each vehicle had to be identified to the relevant authorities and the total amount of Red Diesel used to fill th3vtankscrecorded and the outstanding tax paid to the Treasury.

On another occasion after a largish discrepancy between volume in the depot storage tanks and supposed delivered amounts not only were the environment Agency all over the depot but VOSA inspectors dipping/inspecting every diesel vehicle ( Company AND Private) that was on site or had been onsite for the previous 2 weeks.

As mentioned in posts above abuse of Red Diesel in vehicles using the Public Highway is taken very very seriously by the powers that be in VOSA and Treasury.

 

[hexagon789]

Best part of three grand to fill up an HST then - well, just over £5.5k to fill both ends! Wonder how far you'd get on that much?

I've looked it up and it's about 35% of the cost of regular diesel.

 

[KingDaveRa]

I've looked it up and it's about 35% of the cost of regular diesel.

Just under two grand then (per end). Assuming 4500L capacity on an HST, and fuel is 124p/L (average price), so about 43p a litre.

 

[hexagon789]

Just under two grand then (per end). Assuming 4500L capacity on an HST, and fuel is 124p/L (average price), so about 43p a litre.

Easy to see why some people will risk using it illegally.

 

[KingDaveRa]

Easy to see why some people will risk using it illegally.

Oh absolutely. I know there's been spates of it in the past. It's a case of if you can get something cheaper, people will. The fact there's no way to detect it, other than dipping the tank, makes it all the more viable to do, I reckon. If it made your car emit red smoke, then it'd be less likely to happen!

 

[hexagon789]

Oh absolutely. I know there's been spates of it in the past. It's a case of if you can get something cheaper, people will. The fact there's no way to detect it, other than dipping the tank, makes it all the more viable to do, I reckon. If it made your car emit red smoke, then it'd be less likely to happen!

I wonder if they'll ever implement something like that. Mind you an HST breathing red smoke would be a bit different!