Southern Timetable Change 2018

[GodAtum]

As i said in their consultation, this new timetable seems quite bad. At the moment, East Croydon - Victoria gets 0732, 0739, 0742 and 0745 (all 12 coaches).

But the new timetable we only get 0738 from Eastbourne and 0750 from Littlehampton which are likely to be 12 coaches. There are an 0734 from Reigate but it could be only 8 coaches?

What happened to the 0732 from Bognor Regis, the 0739 from Portsmouth Harbour and the 0742 from Three Bridges?

 

[Minstral25]

I can tell you about Reigate trains as our local Rail Users got details from GTR as they are expecting with the serious cuts from Redhill in the morning peak to Victoria a lot of dangerous overcrowding.

The 07:15, 07:45 and 08:15 from Redhill (all start as 4 from Reigate, but with portion added from Gatwick at Redhill) will all be planned as 12 coaches. (the 7:15 is your 7:34 from platform 4 I think)
06:15, 06:45, 08:45, 09:15 & 09:41 will only have 8 coaches.
Rest of Daily services to Victoria will be just 4 coaches, except a couple around evening peak which will pick up extra coaches at Redhill to get them to Victoria for the return journeys.

Return journeys to Reigate will be 4 coaches but leave Victoria and Clapham 3 minutes behind the Arun Valley trains so hopefully won't be overloaded with East Croydon customers, except in evening when 16:09, 16:39, 17:09, 18:39 & 19:09 will be 8 (portion to Gatwick as well) and 17:39 and 18:09 will be booked as 12.

 

[Ianno87]

The ex-Bognors appear to have shifted to 0723 and 0754, based on OpenTrainTimes.

Looks like there might be a more even spread of departures around the hour, rather than being heavily bunched into a 15 minute period?

 

[IKB]

As i said in their consultation, this new timetable seems quite bad. At the moment, East Croydon - Victoria gets 0732, 0739, 0742 and 0745 (all 12 coaches).

But the new timetable we only get 0738 from Eastbourne and 0750 from Littlehampton which are likely to be 12 coaches. There are an 0734 from Reigate but it could be only 8 coaches?

What happened to the 0732 from Bognor Regis, the 0739 from Portsmouth Harbour and the 0742 from Three Bridges?

On a weekday, East Croydon will have the following departures to Victoria - 0704, 0715, 0720, 0723, 0728, 0734, 0738, 0745, 0750, 0754, 0758.

The infrastructure will only support a certain number of trains. Maybe lets think about the passengers who don't want to go to Victoria and perhaps might want a train to their destination too?

 

[infobleep]

On a weekday, East Croydon will have the following departures to Victoria - 0704, 0715, 0720, 0723, 0728, 0734, 0738, 0745, 0750, 0754, 0758.

The infrastructure will only support a certain number of trains. Maybe lets think about the passengers who don't want to go to Victoria and perhaps might want a train to their destination too?

Are they all fast trains? They seem fairly well spread, except 7.04 to 7.15.

Currently there is a 7.45 and then the next one isn't until 7.56, followed by an 8.00. Being later in the peak it makes more sense to try and limit the gaps.

 

[Minstral25]

They are all fast trains - taking between 18 and 21 minutes, except services from Eastbourne area taking just 16, which I guess come with jet engines?

 

[mirodo]

There appear to be no stopper services from East Croydon to Victoria - the only direct service to Balham, for example, is the hourly service to Milton Keynes (other than a couple of extra Shepherds Bush services in the peak commuting hours).

One stop down the line, South Croydon has (outside of the morning peak commuting hours) no direct services to Victoria - everything going to London Bridge instead.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There appear to be no stopper services from East Croydon to Victoria - the only direct service to Balham, for example, is the hourly service to Milton Keynes (other than a couple of extra Shepherds Bush services in the peak commuting hours).

That'll be popular given their general tendency to cancel that when someone breathes on it.

 

[JonathanH]

There appear to be no stopper services from East Croydon to Victoria - the only direct service to Balham, for example, is the hourly service to Milton Keynes (other than a couple of extra Shepherds Bush services in the peak commuting hours).

One stop down the line, South Croydon has (outside of the morning peak commuting hours) no direct services to Victoria - everything going to London Bridge instead.

They can't run through services over every combination of route. It is just too complex - passengers travelling from South Croydon to Victoria probably change at East Croydon anyway. Off-peak, the link between East Croydon and Selhurst is maintained by the Caterham to London Bridge via Streatham service. Anyone wanting Balham can change at any of the stations between Selhurst and Streatham Common for a service a few minutes behind.

 

[mirodo]

They can't run through services over every combination of route. It is just too complex - passengers travelling from South Croydon to Victoria probably change at East Croydon anyway. Off-peak, the link between East Croydon and Selhurst is maintained by the Caterham to London Bridge via Streatham service. Anyone wanting Balham can change at any of the stations between Selhurst and Streatham Common for a service a few minutes behind.

Passengers travelling from South Croydon towards Victoria currently have two direct services an hour throughout the day. They are used by many people, including myself and many others who I know.

My daily commute is from SCY to Battersea Park - currently achievable as a direct journey in the late morning commute. Under the new timetable, I will have to either catch an earlier train to do the same journey changing at Clapham Junction, or travel at the same time, changing twice - at East Croydon and Clapham Junction. I realise that the railway doesn’t exist purely for my benefit, but when you’ve been making the same journey for several years, it’s a bit of an annoyance to be inconvenienced by its withdrawal.

 

[otomous]

Passengers travelling from South Croydon towards Victoria currently have two direct services an hour throughout the day. They are used by many people, including myself and many others who I know.

My daily commute is from SCY to Battersea Park - currently achievable as a direct journey in the late morning commute. Under the new timetable, I will have to either catch an earlier train to do the same journey changing at Clapham Junction, or travel at the same time, changing twice - at East Croydon and Clapham Junction. I realise that the railway doesn’t exist purely for my benefit, but when you’ve been making the same journey for several years, it’s a bit of an annoyance to be inconvenienced by its withdrawal.

Wouldn’t a same platform change at Selhurst be easier?

 

[JonathanH]

Wouldn’t a same platform change at Selhurst be easier?

I thought that but it happens that the Caterham to London Bridge via Streatham service doesn't stop at South Croydon.

One of the things that they do appear to have done is share out the stops between services to offer more passengers faster journeys over medium distances or help with pathing.

 

[Ianno87]

They can't run through services over every combination of route. It is just too complex - passengers travelling from South Croydon to Victoria probably change at East Croydon anyway. Off-peak, the link between East Croydon and Selhurst is maintained by the Caterham to London Bridge via Streatham service. Anyone wanting Balham can change at any of the stations between Selhurst and Streatham Common for a service a few minutes behind.

Caterham (and Tattenham Corner) are restricted to 8-car length, whereas the Slow aline stations into Victoria are now 10-car.

Therefore it makes sense to match Caterham services into a remaining 8-car corridor (i.e. via Tulse Hill)

It helps avoid the current faff of a 10-car service arriving at Victoria in the peak, then having to be split down in the platform at Victoria to be short enough to form an off-peak service back to Caterham, then vice-versa in the evening peak.

Hopefully no longer havimg to do the above will be a good thing for performance.

 

[Ianno87]

I thought that but it happens that the Caterham to London Bridge via Streatham service doesn't stop at South Croydon.

One of the things that they do appear to have done is share out the stops between services to offer more passengers faster journeys over medium distances or help with pathing.

Off-peak (though maybe not at the exact time you want to travel) one change is still technically possible on an ex-Coulsdon Town service by changing at Norwood Junction (ex-West Croydon) or Sydenham (ex-London Bridge).

Only its 25 minutes wait at the former, or a 5 minute dash over the bridge at the latter...

 

[Bishopstone]

On the Seaford branch, the 'consulted' reduction in high peak frequency from 3tph to 2tph is going ahead. Whilst capacity isn’t too much of an issue - there will likely still be a few seats at Newhaven Town, in the morning - the reduced frequency becomes a pain when a cancellation is encountered, or when they decide to spin the incoming (to Seaford) service at Newhaven Marine because it's five minutes late, as happened a couple of weeks ago.

The changes also mean there are no longer good connections at Lewes, ex-Seaford, onto peak London Bridge services, which of course is where the majority of London commuter traffic is headed. Our options are a dwell of 20 minutes at Lewes (versus a typical 5 minute connection, today), or to take the Victoria connecting train and change at Wivelsfield, Haywards Heath or East Croydon for London Bridge, which will entail standing for that leg of the journey.

I'm surprised to see the 07.12 Eastbourne-London Bridge (which some may recall was the 2x442 operated service, for a few years) is going, without a similarly timed replacement. The last direct London Bridge train, from Eastbourne, will now be the 06.36 (arr. 08.13), and when this becomes widely known it won't be popular, as the 07.12 is a well-used train and removal from the timetable could lead to crowding on the remaining Victoria services around this time.

One other change I've noted is that peak Victoria trains will call at Cooksbridge or Plumpton, alternately, but not both. Selfishly, I'm happy with this as it will speed my journey marginally, but I think this means fewer peak services for both villages, overall. I expect to see some lobbying, and the 'culled' calls reinstated over future timetables.

 

[RichJF]

On the East Grinstead line our London Bridge services all go over to TL 700's in peak hours. The services in the morning originate from West Hampstead TL, Bedford & London Bridge and the evening ones originate from Luton & Bedford.

Other than that the Victoria services are moved a few minutes & mostly depart from Pl 1 (without a lift/disabled access) at East Grinstead! Hopefully they all become 12 car with the surplus stock!

 

[Steve Bray]

I am very cheesed-off with the new Dorking off-peak timings from Victoria. Currently, off peak services depart VIC at 01 and 31, taking 50 minutes to Dorking. The new departures from VIC will be at 55 and 25, making an extra stop at Carshalton but still arriving Dorking at the same time. So an extra 6 minutes bringing the journey time up to around 56 minutes. Now there does appear to be a slot on the fast line from Victoria at around 02 and 32 (used by Caterham services in the Peak). Could this slot not be taken up by the Dorking services off-peak, calling CLJ at around 08 and 38, and then running fast to Sutton? Given a clear run, CLJ to Sutton can be achieved in around 15/16 minutes. The only obstacle would be other movements around Streatham North Junction.

Peak services from VIC call additionally at both Mitcham stations and Hackbridge, yet still take the same duration to reach Dorking as the new off-peak services

 

[Thebaz]

I am very cheesed-off with the new Dorking off-peak timings from Victoria. Currently, off peak services depart VIC at 01 and 31, taking 50 minutes to Dorking. The new departures from VIC will be at 55 and 25, making an extra stop at Carshalton but still arriving Dorking at the same time. So an extra 6 minutes bringing the journey time up to around 56 minutes. Now there does appear to be a slot on the fast line from Victoria at around 02 and 32 (used by Caterham services in the Peak). Could this slot not be taken up by the Dorking services off-peak, calling CLJ at around 08 and 38, and then running fast to Sutton? Given a clear run, CLJ to Sutton can be achieved in around 15/16 minutes. The only obstacle would be other movements around Streatham North Junction.

Peak services from VIC call additionally at both Mitcham stations and Hackbridge, yet still take the same duration to reach Dorking as the new off-peak services

My guess is that it's to with pathing through Epsom and Leatherhead. If SWT (or whatever they're called now) aren't changing their timetables much then it would stand that Southern trains have to occupy the same path they previously did.

 

[zoneking]

I responded to the consultation. The new timetable does not at all resemble that proposed during the consultation. It is particularly bad for Caterham (CAT). Instead of Tattenham Corner (TAT) services arriving first at Purley in the am peak, services from CAT will arrive first and will have to wait for 7 minutes at Purley. You could say it was time that TAT was give preferential treatment, as CAT has had it better for so long. Also, there will be 20 minute gaps between some trains, not 16 at present. I see many people taking the 407 Bus to Whyteleafe and walking to Upper Warlingham.

Services from Purley also look considerably worse than at present, with approaching 30 min gaps for fast trains to London (Not CAT/TAT).

There is now only one train from Epsom to Guildford, leaving a huge 1 hour 40 minute gap for services from Epsom to Guildford (No SWR trains during this period).

This really is appalling timetabling and services for a busy commuter railway.

 

[Class455]

Not too pleased with the new timetable, especially on the Caterham line. If anything, our services have been worsened, with trains now every 20 minutes instead of 15 minutes. The thing that really irritates me is that they have gone ahead with withdrawing the service between Caterham and London Victoria in off-peaks and replaced by extra London Bridge services via Tulse Hill, rather unnecessary I think! The London Bridge via Tulse Hill services could have been better served from Tattenham Corner, as it is they only have trains every half an hour. My commute involves me traveling from Kenley to Kingston, and sometimes I start later in the day, so instead of catching a straight train to Clapham Junction, I now have to change at Streatham Common or East Croydon. The services between Caterham and Victoria were well loaded as it was, so why get rid of them?

Even during the peaks, trains still depart on the Caterham Line every 20 minutes, which is rather unacceptable for a busy commuter line.

Another thing that annoys me is that GTR have gone ahead with the fast London Bridge trains attaching with Tattenham Corner trains, even though the results of the consultation suggested that most people didn't want this. This is going to cause even more disruption, as if trains have a problem with the attachment, it can potentially ruin the service, and this happens pretty often. Couldn't they just go ahead with extending the platforms along the line and not worry about making unnecessary attachments? As it is Caterham can fit 8/10 car trains and there is plenty of space to extend the Platforms at Kenley, Whyteleafe and Whyteleafe South. Some of the Caterham - London Bridge via Tulse Hill services are going to be 8 car 455's anyway according to the timetable so this could still happen.

 

[mmh]

I'm really not looking forward to it, both for "selfish" and non-selfish reasons. The services I use are pretty much all changed for the worse, with fewer services per hour and a less even scheduling pattern. The only "benefit" is being able to go to Bedford on a train which at the time I'll take it will be packed because it's a 700 with no seats that's come all the way from Horsham via Gatwick rather than a 10 car 377 from Caterham/Tattenham or Epsom.

I've seen next to no publicity that there's a complete timetable change, and given there's only a month to go that seems risky. I won't be surprised if the first week is chaos at stations.

 

[Thebaz]

Services from Purley also look considerably worse than at present, with approaching 30 min gaps for fast trains to London (Not CAT/TAT).

Peak time services from any local station south of Croydon to any local station north of Croydon will be absolutely terrible. The missus has to get from Purley Oaks to Forest Hill and that will now involve TWO changes and take nearly an hour. What's more the first direct train is now 10.50ish from PUO instead of today's 09.25. Off-peak of course the service is direct taking about 25 minutes just to rub it in.

 

[Ianno87]

I am very cheesed-off with the new Dorking off-peak timings from Victoria. Currently, off peak services depart VIC at 01 and 31, taking 50 minutes to Dorking. The new departures from VIC will be at 55 and 25, making an extra stop at Carshalton but still arriving Dorking at the same time. So an extra 6 minutes bringing the journey time up to around 56 minutes. Now there does appear to be a slot on the fast line from Victoria at around 02 and 32 (used by Caterham services in the Peak). Could this slot not be taken up by the Dorking services off-peak, calling CLJ at around 08 and 38, and then running fast to Sutton? Given a clear run, CLJ to Sutton can be achieved in around 15/16 minutes. The only obstacle would be other movements around Streatham North Junction.

Peak services from VIC call additionally at both Mitcham stations and Hackbridge, yet still take the same duration to reach Dorking as the new off-peak services

That path is required for freight via the Fast Lines in some off-peak hours, e.g. that Down path would conflict with this train on the Up Streatham Fast Spur http://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/H43431/2018-06-12

They have to use the Fast Lines in order to gain access to the South London Line via Pouparts Jn.

 

[LeeLivery]

Peak time services from any local station south of Croydon to any local station north of Croydon will be absolutely terrible. The missus has to get from Purley Oaks to Forest Hill and that will now involve TWO changes and take nearly an hour. What's more the first direct train is now 10.50ish from PUO instead of today's 09.25. Off-peak of course the service is direct taking about 25 minutes just to rub it in.

Yes, the reduction of trains from the Sydenham slow lines through East Croydon is going to be a pain. Starting a load of trains at Norwood Junction is only catering for people into London Bridge and is a total disregard for anyone who wants to go south. Whats worse is having to change at Norwood Junction with no-step free access and NXG with step-free access has all its fast trains scrapped. The only benefit from the new timetable I get is a Sunday service for the London Bridge to Victoria service.

 

[mmh]

Yes, the reduction of trains from the Sydenham slow lines through East Croydon is going to be a pain. Starting a load of trains at Norwood Junction is only catering for people into London Bridge and is a total disregard for anyone who wants to go south. Whats worse is having to change at Norwood Junction with no-step free access and NXG with step-free access has all its fast trains scrapped. The only benefit from the new timetable I get is a Sunday service for the London Bridge to Victoria service.

A timetable that forces changes at Norwood Junction is ridiculous, it's completely unsuited with its narrow passageways, steep and narrow stairs and narrow fast up London platform.

Scrapping all of New Cross Gate's fast line services just a few weeks into having a few Peterborough "preview" stop there feels like a double kick. "Here's what you could have won". Why on earth would you do that?

My experience is there's a reasonable amount of use of the NXG-Horsham fast line service to East Croydon and Gatwick. It gives a one change service from the north of the east London line to both. Now most of that flow will be forced onto well over capacity London Overground trains which can't be lengthened and increase interchange at Norwood, while leaving the recently rebuilt fast line platforms at NXG unused.

They may as well not have bothered and just closed the NXG fast platforms. It's a shambles.

 

[cle]

In time (once the Bakerloo is there and more ELL tph) - I think everything should stop at NXG. It will be a very important interchange by then and would provide good relief to London Bridge, Waterloo East and Charing Cross.

London is heading the way of having all trains stop at a second place, e.g. Old Oak, Stratford... it's polycentric and has stretched both east and west.

 

[otomous]

I am very cheesed-off with the new Dorking off-peak timings from Victoria. Currently, off peak services depart VIC at 01 and 31, taking 50 minutes to Dorking. The new departures from VIC will be at 55 and 25, making an extra stop at Carshalton but still arriving Dorking at the same time. So an extra 6 minutes bringing the journey time up to around 56 minutes. Now there does appear to be a slot on the fast line from Victoria at around 02 and 32 (used by Caterham services in the Peak). Could this slot not be taken up by the Dorking services off-peak, calling CLJ at around 08 and 38, and then running fast to Sutton? Given a clear run, CLJ to Sutton can be achieved in around 15/16 minutes. The only obstacle would be other movements around Streatham North Junction.

Peak services from VIC call additionally at both Mitcham stations and Hackbridge, yet still take the same duration to reach Dorking as the new off-peak services

There is actually too much time allowed between Clapham Junction and Sutton currently. A clear run and you can get there five early. The stop at Carshalton is easily accommodated.

 

[London Trains]

There is actually too much time allowed between Clapham Junction and Sutton currently. A clear run and you can get there five early. The stop at Carshalton is easily accommodated.

This. Using this route often, the train ALWAYS ends up at Sutton early. Once, the train was TEN minutes early and I had enough time to walk to Platform 1 and get a Starbucks and get back on the train

 

[LeeLivery]

A timetable that forces changes at Norwood Junction is ridiculous, it's completely unsuited with its narrow passageways, steep and narrow stairs and narrow fast up London platform.

Scrapping all of New Cross Gate's fast line services just a few weeks into having a few Peterborough "preview" stop there feels like a double kick. "Here's what you could have won". Why on earth would you do that?

My experience is there's a reasonable amount of use of the NXG-Horsham fast line service to East Croydon and Gatwick. It gives a one change service from the north of the east London line to both. Now most of that flow will be forced onto well over capacity London Overground trains which can't be lengthened and increase interchange at Norwood, while leaving the recently rebuilt fast line platforms at NXG unused.

They may as well not have bothered and just closed the NXG fast platforms. It's a shambles.

Indeed, it is well used. More passengers on the slow services, especially in the peaks is just going to make everything worse. Even with two extra ELLs per hour (whenever that happens), I can't see how it will cope for much longer, especially as it won't go West Croydon and Crossrail opens this year.

In time (once the Bakerloo is there and more ELL tph) - I think everything should stop at NXG. It will be a very important interchange by then and would provide good relief to London Bridge, Waterloo East and Charing Cross.

London is heading the way of having all trains stop at a second place, e.g. Old Oak, Stratford... it's polycentric and has stretched both east and west.

Yep, Clapham Junction, Finsbury Park, Tottenham Hale. I think the Bakerloo will do more NXG than Lewisham. Commuters to Charing Cross will still use the faster train and it's useless if you work in the city.

 

[Steve Bray]

There is actually too much time allowed between Clapham Junction and Sutton currently

That's what makes the new timetable so disappointing when it was intended to offer "improvements". Here was an opportunity to accelerate the current service, and instead it has been decelerated.