Dispute with SWR (wanting to part pay with RTV, ended up paying nothing)

[Adsy125]

I recently travelled with SWR and boarded at a station where the ticket office was closed. As TVMs don't accept Rail Travel Vouchers (RTVs) I went into the platform and boarded the train I wanted to use. When the guard came through I tried to use my voucher as part payment of my fare which at no point did I try to avoid or not pay. After spending a while looking at her machine the guard told me that she was unable to sell me a ticket using my RTV as part payment.

At this point I refused to pay the full fare for the journey because I though that I should've been able to use my voucher. She insisted that I had to pay despite me (politely) mentioning that it wasn't my fault she couldn't take the voucher. Eventually she decided to start to take my name and address, which I willingly gave, and started to write out a UFN. Possibly luckily for me we reached my station before she could finish so didn't finish writing the UFN and I was let go.

I sent a complaint to SWR about this because the voucher says it can be used as part payment for a fare and I was declined this. In the complaint I gave agave an account of what happened with specifics. Sadly I have just received a reply.

I am sorry to hear that you were unable to use your Rail Voucher at one of our TVM’s or on board our train. Unfortunately, you can only redeem the Rail Travel Vouchers at a Ticket Office and I apologise that on this occasion the Ticket Office was closed.

We operate a ‘Buy Before you Board’ policy, which means that passengers are expected to hold a valid ticket before they board one of our services. If a passenger chooses to board without a valid ticket covering their entire journey, from a station where there were facilities to buy one, they may be liable to a Penalty Fare.

Guards are not permitted to sell discounted tickets of any kind on the train, if the customer boarded at a station with functioning ticket purchasing facilities. Passengers who have chosen to board without a ticket, and buy one from the guard, will be issued with a Penalty Fare Warning, explaining that they could have been given a Penalty Fare on that occasion, should a member of Revenue Protection have been on that train. If a Revenue Protection employee happens to be on that train, they will be given a Penalty Fare.


In future, I would advise you to visit a ticket office before your departure date or time to use your voucher.


I hope this information proves useful to you.


Thank you again for contacting South Western Railway.

I'm rather concerned by the fact she told me I could've recieved a penalty fare, even though I did not have any opportunity to buy the ticket I wanted. Are SWR correct here or not?

Thanks.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I recently travelled with SWR and boarded at a station where the ticket office was closed. As TVMs don't accept Rail Travel Vouchers (RTVs) I went into the platform and boarded the train I wanted to use. When the guard came through I tried to use my voucher as part payment of my fare which at no point did I try to avoid or not pay. After spending a while looking at her machine the guard told me that she was unable to sell me a ticket using my RTV as part payment.

At this point I refused to pay the full fare for the journey because I though that I should've been able to use my voucher. She insisted that I had to pay despite me (politely) mentioning that it wasn't my fault she couldn't take the voucher. Eventually she decided to start to take my name and address, which I willingly gave, and started to write out a UFN. Possibly luckily for me we reached my station before she could finish so didn't finish writing the UFN and I was let go.

I sent a complaint to SWR about this because the voucher says it can be used as part payment for a fare and I was declined this. In the complaint I gave agave an account of what happened with specifics. Sadly I have just received a reply.



I'm rather concerned by the fact she told me I could've recieved a penalty fare, even though I did not have any opportunity to buy the ticket I wanted. Are SWR correct here or not?

Thanks.

Another thread, another unconsidered, incorrect and misleading template response by a TOC... nationalrail.co.uk states that RTVs are an acceptable payment method - just as cash and card are. If the train companies do not provide adequate facilities to buy a ticket before you board (by accepting all the acceptable payment methods) then that is their problem and they cannot make it yours.

I'm not sure there's much point following up here as there isn't a PF or prosecution at stake (nor any loss by you), and pushing it further may make RTVs stop being an acceptable payment method (to the detriment of many RTV holders). That said, purely from a stance of principle SWR need to be put in their place and apologise.

 

[bb21]

The OP either has to following it up, or leave it if it is felt likely to do more harm. "But, but, but..." and "a stance of principle" is not much of an option if that means nothing in reality.

OP, follow this up with a question asking them what the official company policy is regarding part-payment with RTV is when there is no open ticket office. A customer should not be unduly inconvenienced with a recognised payment method so you can also ask what they are doing to ensure that people wishing to pay with an RTV are fairly treated, even better if it were an RTV issued by the company themselves. UFN is acceptable as a last resort after all other approaches have failed, as it is just a bill to pay the fare, which can be made retrospectively part-paid with an RTV. Legally speaking the fare is still due. In many cases onboard staff would not bother with a UFN but if they did you are still required to provide details or risk BTP intervention.

The talk of Penalty Fare is irrelevant, and I think it is inconsiderate to include that in a reply from Customer Services.

A lot if it boils down to the fact RTVs are poorly integrated, and using outdated technology in this day and age. The industry need to move on with the times.

 

[furlong]

Is there any text on the back of the RTV telling you where you may use it?

 

[Adsy125]

Is there any text on the back of the RTV telling you where you may use it?

It says

at any station or rail-appointed Travel agent as full or part oayment...

 

[Adsy125]

Another thread, another unconsidered, incorrect and misleading template response by a TOC... nationalrail.co.uk states that RTVs are an acceptable payment method - just as cash and card are. If the train companies do not provide adequate facilities to buy a ticket before you board (by accepting all the acceptable payment methods) then that is their problem and they cannot make it yours.

I'm not sure there's much point following up here as there isn't a PF or prosecution at stake (nor any loss by you), and pushing it further may make RTVs stop being an acceptable payment method (to the detriment of many RTV holders). That said, purely from a stance of principle SWR need to be put in their place and apologise.

I mainly agree with you there but the guard did say she would report me or something along those lines which seemed to be a little ominous.

 

[najaB]

Another thread, another unconsidered, incorrect and misleading template response by a TOC... nationalrail.co.uk states that RTVs are an acceptable payment method - just as cash and card are.

As I understand it, TOCs are under no obligation to accept specific (or any) payment methods on board the train so the correct course of action would've been to either instruct the passenger to pay at their destination or to issue a UFN.

 

[najaB]

I mainly agree with you there but the guard did say she would report me or something along those lines...

Is is possible that she meant fill out a ticket irregularity report (TIR) - basically just a report of something 'unusual', with no accusation associated - or an Unpaid Fair Notice (UFN) - again, basically an invoice for a fare that is due with no accusation attached?

The fact that she accepted the RTV and attempted to sell the ticket you requested suggests that she didn't think you were trying it on.

 

[Llanigraham]

It says

at any station or rail-appointed Travel agent as full or part payment...

So that does not included on-board ticket sellers!

 

[Adsy125]

So that does not included on-board ticket sellers!

Thats true (and I only just noticed!) but I can't see anywhere else saying they can't be used onboard and the ordinary advice is to buy onboard if your ticket isn't available at the station.

 

[najaB]

Thats true (and I only just noticed!) but I can't see anywhere else saying they can't be used onboard...

Because they can be used on board, where the guard/ticket seller is able to accept them. However, no payment method is guaranteed to be accepted on board.

 

[Adsy125]

Because they can be used on board, where the guard/ticket seller is able to accept them. However, no payment method is guaranteed to be accepted on board.

But my point is surely that I shouldn't have to pay the full price of the fare because the guard was unable to take the voucher.

 

[najaB]

But my point is surely that I shouldn't have to pay the full price of the fare because the guard was unable to take the voucher.

No, you shouldn't. As noted above, the correct course of action would be to advise you to pay at your destination or issue a UFN. Were the NRCoC still in effect, the third option would have been to have sold you a ticket that would allow you to complete the leg of the journey you were on and allow that to be offset against the cost of the ticket you required.

 

[furlong]

So that does not included on-board ticket sellers!

It does say "any" station without further qualification - so it's probably not unreasonable to expect that alternative arrangements to accept it must be made where "any" station in fact doesn't accept it. If they had meant "at ticket offices" (during opening hours - implied) they could have written that.

 

[Llanigraham]

I obviously read it differently to others.
"any station" = that does not include a train. A station is a quite obvious thing and has only one meaning.
"rail appointed Travel agent" = an onboard ticket seller is not a Travel agent. Again that is a very specific meaning especially with a capital T at the beginning.

 

[farleigh]

I obviously read it differently to others.
"any station" = that does not include a train. A station is a quite obvious thing and has only one meaning.
"rail appointed Travel agent" = an onboard ticket seller is not a Travel agent. Again that is a very specific meaning especially with a capital T at the beginning.

The point being that if the station does not have facilities to accept the voucher, then it should be allowed to use them later in the journey.

 

[Starmill]

obviously read it differently to others.
"any station" = that does not include a train.

No no, we read it the same way.

The OP tried to use his voucher at a station. This is in accordance with the information on NRE and printed on the voucher. SWR then decided not to accept the voucher at the station, which is not in accordance with the information the customer was given.

The guard made a mistake. How unusual.

The correct thing to do, if unable to accept the voucher, was to advise the customer to use it at their destination station.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have been in exactly the same situation on LM but handled much better. Arrived at Bletchley at a time when the ticket office is publicised as being open and it was not due to sickness. The barriers were open so I went through and boarded. No guard came through as usual. Got to the Euston barriers, and told them I didn't have a ticket as the ticket office was closed and the TVM did not accept RTVs and showed the RTV. I was directed to purchase from the windows outside the barrier line (the excess window was also closed) and give them the outward once I had done. I did this, they took the outward as requested, I proceeded on my way.

No problem at all.

Though on RTVs generally, I'm not sure it wouldn't be best to abolish them, they don't really serve that useful a purpose now Delay Repay can be paid by BACS.

 

[AlterEgo]

So that does not included on-board ticket sellers!

It does.

This is unequivocal.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/45185.aspx

 

[Bletchleyite]

It does.

This is unequivocal.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/45185.aspx

Er, it doesn't. Though the bit about cash is now wrong as they can be exchanged for cash at some TOCs.

How can I use them?
They can be exchanged for ticket(s) to travel on National Rail services.

They can be exchanged at station booking offices or through some Telesales – if purchasing through a Telesales Department enough time must be allowed for processing, this can be up to 14 days. (Please check with the specific retailer).

They cannot be exchanged for cash.

Change cannot be given if the cost of the ticket(s) purchased is less than the value of voucher(s) tendered.

 

[AlterEgo]

Er, it doesn't. Though the bit about cash is now wrong as they can be exchanged for cash at some TOCs.

How can I use them?
They can be exchanged for ticket(s) to travel on National Rail services.

They can be exchanged at station booking offices or through some Telesales – if purchasing through a Telesales Department enough time must be allowed for processing, this can be up to 14 days. (Please check with the specific retailer).

They cannot be exchanged for cash.

Change cannot be given if the cost of the ticket(s) purchased is less than the value of voucher(s) tendered.

“The following are accepted as methods of payments at National Rail stations and retail outlets. They also apply to paying on-train when no opportunity to purchase beforehand existed.“

(It then lists all the methods)

Travel Vouchers have always been an acceptable method of payment on the train.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

But my point is surely that I shouldn't have to pay the full price of the fare because the guard was unable to take the voucher.

Indeed, and if you and the Guard had completed the UPF, then you would have been in exactly the position you had been hoping for - able to pay with the Vouchers and the balance due in cash or other form of payment (such as a cheque which would be about as anachronistic as an RTV ! ), as bb21 has already pointed out - with the benefit of a few more days to do so for the inconvenience.

 

[Starmill]

now Delay Repay can be paid by BACS

What do you mean? Many TOCs don't offer compensation by electronic transfer, including Northern, Merseyrail and Grand Central.

 

[najaB]

Though on RTVs generally, I'm not sure it wouldn't be best to abolish them, they don't really serve that useful a purpose now Delay Repay can be paid by BACS

And if the passenger doesn't have a bank account?

 

[farleigh]

And if the passenger doesn't have a bank account?

Seriously?

 

[Bletchleyite]

And if the passenger doesn't have a bank account?

They should get one (basic bank accounts are available to pretty much everyone), or ask a friend (or parent/guardian for a kid) to assist.

It’s 2018.

 

[sheff1]

Though on RTVs generally, I'm not sure it wouldn't be best to abolish them, they don't really serve that useful a purpose now Delay Repay can be paid by BACS.

I tried my first delay payment via BACS on 3 March. Still not arrived in my account even though an email dated 20th March confirmed payment was on its way. Pathetic, I could make an electronic payment now and it would be in the recipient's account in seconds.

Naturally, my latest request was for RTVs which have always previously arrived from the same TOC a lot faster. Interesting to see if I get them before the BACS payment.

 

[Llanigraham]

Seriously?

Yes.
Someone subject to on-going bankruptcy proceedings.
Foreign national.
Child.
And probably several others.

 

[najaB]

Seriously?

Yes, seriously. Not everyone has (or wants) a UK bank account.

 

[superalbs]

Yes, seriously. Not everyone has (or wants) a bank account.

I agree. I wouldn't have opened one if it weren't for GWR sending cheques when I ask for a RTV.