Labour to offer free bus travel to Under 25’s

[Andyh82]

Sounds like a disaster like ENTCS Mk2. Properly fund it at first and then let it wane. This policy gets big headlines and buys votes. Axing a bus due to poor funding years later goes un noticed except in the area it happens in, as as we know buses mostly go under the radar of the national media.

Not sure why a working 24 year old should get free travel. I expect Corbyn and the Labour Party have been talking about everyone young being in a poor financial state so long they actually assume everyone is.

It’s a clever policy that even takes away the failure of it not actually happening away from central government, as implementing it will be a decision by local councils, many of those are Conservative councils, plus of course some Labour ones might not agree to it either.

I’m not sure why ‘the council’ running buses is seen as the perfect scenario, when everyone never stops complaining about council tax and perceived poor council services, pot holes, bin collections etc.

 

[Dentonian]

Total bus revenue, including subsidies, in England, outside London is only £3.4bn/yr

Only £1990m of that was farebox income.


The ASB argument is a read herring that verges on collective punishment - young people are to be penalised because it is believed that some of their number will behave "antisocially".

The economic and environmental benefits of removing bus fares are enormous.
It is the only way to reshape a car based economy.

This ofcourse ignores that bus operating efficiency would be improved as there would be no need to retain single door buses any longer.
All buses could have two or more sets of doors as required, there would also not need to be the enormous payment infrastructure that currently has to be maintained.

ASB is not a red herring. Whilst I'm the first to agree that collective punishment is a bad thing, you could argue that de-reg is a collective punishment for living outside London sand not owning/using a car; or that the existing fare arrangements are a collective punishment for not living where the commercial bus operator wants you to live; or that what is now proposed is a collective punishment for being 25-67 years old. Besides, it isn't a "punishment", because the argument is about giving something to a particular group, not taking away what they already have.

Regards, dual door buses - not that simple. When SELNEC/GMT had dual door buses, there were three times more platform accidents involving alighting passengers than boarding passengers. Also, it is difficult enough lining up the front of the bus to a partially blocked stop, it would be impossible to line up an exist 3 metres further back as well.

 

[Dentonian]

I’m not sure why ‘the council’ running buses is seen as the perfect scenario, when everyone never stops complaining about council tax and perceived poor council services, pot holes, bin collections etc.

Not so much a "perfect scenario", just that de-reg has a "second wind" with fares increasing, services declining and passengers deserting quicker than at any time since 1987/8. This time, its not just rural areas and shire counties being hit, its low car ownership suburbs.

 

[HSTEd]

Besides, it isn't a "punishment", because the argument is about giving something to a particular group, not taking away what they already have.

A decision to deny someone something is, in my opinion, just as much a punishment to take something away that they have.

Regards, dual door buses - not that simple. When SELNEC/GMT had dual door buses, there were three times more platform accidents involving alighting passengers than boarding passengers. Also, it is difficult enough lining up the front of the bus to a partially blocked stop, it would be impossible to line up an exist 3 metres further back as well.

If the stop is partially blocked you could just open only the front door?

But the key here is that without need to control entry and egress from the bus, boarding and alighting arrangements can be changed to increase efficiency, even with only a single door. For example by moving the door slightly back so that the driver's cab does not force a constricted throat.

 

[backontrack]

Franchising is a left wing doctrine now, is it?

The Mail really are a parody of themselves.

Indeed.

 

[EM2]

Not sure why a working 24 year old should get free travel.

Maybe because the Conservatives have decided that under-25s don't have to be paid the same minimum wage as over-25s.
The Tories think you should pay a full fare to get to work but not get paid a full wage once you're there.
And why should anyone 16-30 get discounted train travel?

 

[Tetchytyke]

It also means buses are often (genuinely) full with under 18s taking 200 yard journeys which just wouldn't happen otherwise

Nobody cares when said same bus is full of over 65s taking 200 yard journeys.

Funny that.

 

[backontrack]

Nobody cares when said same bus is full of over 65s taking 200 yard journeys.

Funny that.

Fantastic observation.

Maybe because the Conservatives have decided that under-25s don't have to be paid the same minimum wage as over-25s.
The Tories think you should pay a full fare to get to work but not get paid a full wage once you're there.
And why should anyone 16-30 get discounted train travel?

Very well put.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Teflon Lettuce said: ↑
Not sure why a working 24 year old should get free travel.

Maybe because the Conservatives have decided that under-25s don't have to be paid the same minimum wage as over-25s.
The Tories think you should pay a full fare to get to work but not get paid a full wage once you're there.
And why should anyone 16-30 get discounted train travel?

I tried to message you privately, but the system wouldn't let me send it... you have attributed the above comment to me, but I have checked my posts and I didn't make the comment. Please set the record straight.

 

[EM2]

I tried to message you privately, but the system wouldn't let me send it... you have attributed the above comment to me, but I have checked my posts and I didn't make the comment. Please set the record straight.

My apologies, I had originally added one of your posts into the quote, thought that I had subsequently deleted it, but only deleted the posting not the tags.
It has now been corrected.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

My apologies, I had originally added one of your posts into the quote, thought that I had subsequently deleted it, but only deleted the posting not the tags.
It has now been corrected.

no probs

 

[Robertj21a]

Regards, dual door buses - not that simple. When SELNEC/GMT had dual door buses, there were three times more platform accidents involving alighting passengers than boarding passengers. Also, it is difficult enough lining up the front of the bus to a partially blocked stop, it would be impossible to line up an exist 3 metres further back as well.

Interesting to note that the highly respected Brighton & Hove bus company has been reintroducing dual-doored buses in recent times, with no obvious problems. I think we can safely say that if Brighton & Hove are satisfied then so should most other operators.

 

[Andyh82]

Maybe because the Conservatives have decided that under-25s don't have to be paid the same minimum wage as over-25s.
The Tories think you should pay a full fare to get to work but not get paid a full wage once you're there.

Only if you are on minimum wage, and many aren’t.

 

[Typhoon]

This may or may not be a sound policy (I personally think it needs more thought) but at least it has got bus travel into the front half of national newspapers for the first time since that Scottish Stagecoach driver spectacularly avoided an accident in the snow and ice about six weeks ago (Rush Hour Crush excepted).

I notice that ministers are decrying the idea. The response should be 'well, what is your policy?' All DfT come up with is that we are spending record amounts investing in rail - but this ignores the tens of thousands who have no local rail service. Their website features five key policies - two involve road, the description of neither mentions bus. In fact 'bus' only ever comes up when 'low emissions' are mentioned. The 'minister' (Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State) covering buses is, on the DfT website, ranked five of five and is also a government whip, so Transport is a part time job. If the answer is that they have no policy (of note), fine - at least we know. However, maybe it will have the same response as Corbyn's student loans policy - government suddenly realises it's an issue. Maybe they will come up with a much reduced version but better than the current situation.

For now at least, it is a point of discussion - and not just on this forum. Media have picked up the story. We might just get some interest in bus travel beyond the Borsetshire Chronicle reporting that a group of pensioners/ young mothers/ college students protesting that their bus service is being cut. This might, of course, all be wishful thinking!

(Yes, yes I know bus travel has been pushed down to regions, counties, anybody but national government but they should be giving direction)

 

[mmh]

Nobody cares when said same bus is full of over 65s taking 200 yard journeys.

Funny that.

The difference is those over 65s are more likely to be less mobile than the under 18s, and less likely to be making journeys for the sake of it

 

[mmh]

Only if you are on minimum wage, and many aren’t.

The minimum wage is a double edged sword. I agree with the principle, and think it should probably be considerably higher, but for many many jobs the minimum wage is now the maximum wage and it allows all employers in low wage industries to fall to the bottom together.

 

[Dai Corner]

It's interesting to note that just six months ago the Welsh Conseratives were advocating free travel for 16-24 year olds and the Labour Welsh Government dismissed their estimated cost as 'fantasy economics'

http://www.itv.com/news/wales/2017-10-07/free-travel-plans-for-young-people-in-wales/

The Welsh Conservatives say they'd introduce free bus travel and discounted train tickets for 16-24 year olds in Wales.

The proposals would see the introduction of a travel card, dubbed a 'Green Card', which cost up to £25m.

The party says the package represents an “exciting offer for young people” in Wales.

The Welsh Government have dismissed the plans as "fantasy economics"

We are committed to building a stronger economy and a fairer society, and we believe that young people should benefit from the same travel concessions offered to Wales’ over-60s.

Young people tend to have the lowest wages and the highest car insurance premiums. And whilst others receive a free ride, young people are all too often hit in the pocket – they deserve extra support.

Travel costs can be a huge barrier to accessing education, training and employment opportunities for young people and these proposals will help to address this.

– SHADOW ECONOMY SECRETARY, RUSSELL GEORGE
These Tory proposals have been made up on the back of a fag packet.

To think you can provide 350,000 people with free bus travel and a third off rail fares for £25m is fantasy economics.

– WELSH GOVERNMENT SPOKESMAN
The 'Green Card' will be promoted by a Wales-wide advertising campaign to promote take up.

Shadow Education Secretary, Darren Millar, said:

They (young people) represent an exciting offer for young people and will not only save them money, but also help to save the planet too by encouraging the use of greener forms of transport.

– SHADOW EDUCATION SECRETARY, DARREN MILLAR
Last updated Sat 7 Oct 2017

 

[HSTEd]

The difference is those over 65s are more likely to be less mobile than the under 18s, and less likely to be making journeys for the sake of it

Really?

In my home town pensioners often just ride the buses around all day, especially in winter, so they don't have to heat their homes.

 

[thejuggler]

A nice sounding headline BUT this will only happen if council effectively either run the buses themselves or have a London style tendering system. Both MASSIVE changes and far more complicated than the headline grabbing act of free travel for under 25s.

Even if a council wanted to do this, how long would it take to implement?

Not that long. They just have to go and ask Cardiff Bus how they do it. Owned and run by the local Council.

 

[Andyh82]

The council owned companies are “arms length” are they not. They don’t discuss bus routes and timetables in the council chambers in between planning applications and bin collections.

 

[ashworth]

As opposed to the hoardes of free-paying pensioners who travel one stop from the Bingo Hall (at one end of the High Street) to the Bus Station (at the other)? Free travel generally seems to encourage short distance travel: after all, why wouldn't you?

Exactly. I'd be very interested to know whether the number of concessionary passholders taking the bus two or three stops in my area increased when the ENCTS pass was increased as supposed to when they had to pay 20p a journey.

When I see ENTS pass holders board a bus just to travel a couple of stops from just one end of the High Street to the other, I can’t help but compare it with my grandparents and many others of their generation. I’m going back 40+ years ago but in those days pensioners and many less well off younger people would not board a bus to travel 2 or 3 stops. In contrast they would walk down the road 2 or 3 stops to the next fare stage to save a few pennies to get for a cheaper fare!

 

[Bletchleyite]

The minimum wage is a double edged sword. I agree with the principle, and think it should probably be considerably higher, but for many many jobs the minimum wage is now the maximum wage and it allows all employers in low wage industries to fall to the bottom together.

Most such industries are the ones where they were paying well below the present minimum prior to its existence, though - I'm thinking the likes of cleaners on three quid an hour and waiters living off tips.

There's no real way of solving that other than having different minima by industry (the Swiss do that when deciding whether to issue work permits or not).

 

[158756]

The key thing I want the government to do is what they promised originally, which is to increase the £21,000 repayment threshold in line with inflation. The same rate they charge the interest at (ideally CPI for both). They should also increase it now using the back dated inflation too, although even if they do that the higher payments some people have already made will still stand. This is very unlikely to happen!

It isn't going up annually with inflation as far as I know, but the repayment threshold for post 2012 loans had a one-off increase to £25000 last week.

 

[Typhoon]

When I see ENTS pass holders board a bus just to travel a couple of stops from just one end of the High Street to the other, I can’t help but compare it with my grandparents and many others of their generation. I’m going back 40+ years ago but in those days pensioners and many less well off younger people would not board a bus to travel 2 or 3 stops. In contrast they would walk down the road 2 or 3 stops to the next fare stage to save a few pennies to get for a cheaper fare!

While I agree with your last sentence (I did it myself thanks to LTs fare tables), 40+ years ago pensioners seldom lived much beyond their 70s. Now pensioners in their 80s and 90s are encouraged to live independent lives and need to catch the bus to get to the shops (there was one at the end of each road in my childhood), the doctor (again the surgery was local - no more), the post office, etc. Many have had sedentary occupations meaning that they may finding walking tiring; whilst my father, both grandfathers and a number of former neighbours were on their feet all day at work and may have walked or cycled to work beforehand. One can blame today's pensioners for not taking exercise if you wish, but perhaps more difficult to blame them for trying to maintain their independence by doing things for themselves - not being a burden.
Having said that that a family friend, aged 96, until recently used to walk 20 minutes to the bus stop to travel some distance (gave up counting stops) to do voluntary work, so there are exceptions.

 

[Robertj21a]

Not that long. They just have to go and ask Cardiff Bus how they do it. Owned and run by the local Council.

It's not owned, or run, by the council.

 

[JohnR]

It's not owned, or run, by the council.

Next you'll be saying Lothian Buses isnt owned by the respective councils!

 

[goldisgood]

It's not owned, or run, by the council.

They are owned by the council, but not run by them.

 

[Dai Corner]

They are owned by the council, but not run by them.

As owners the Council appoint the Board of Directors, several of whom are Councillors as opposed to transport professionals. They would not be involved in day-to-day decisions but I'd imagine there is more contact between the company and Council than sending a cheque for the profits at the end of the financial year.

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/02001229/officers

 

[WatcherZero]

Edinburgh Councillors are banned from serving as directors of Lothian Buses because of conflict of interest concerns.

 

[Dai Corner]

Edinburgh Councillors are banned from serving as directors of Lothian Buses because of conflict of interest concerns.

Clearly Scotland has a different view to Wales, or perhaps the law is different. Newport Transport, wholly owned by Newport City Council, has a Council officer as well as Councillors on the board.