Unwanted V250s finally find use

[Bungle965]

http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/high-speed/trenitalia-reveals-plans-to-modify-v250-fleet.html

According to sources close to the project, Trenitalia wants to alter the nose design and the seating layout, modify the pantographs and onboard ETCS equipment and repaint the fleet in a new livery. Trenitalia has also asked for a full overhaul to be carried out.
The first train should be ready at the end of this year, and the remaining 16 trains will be modified in first half of 2018. The trains will then need to obtain an authorisation to place in service. Trenitalia plans to introduce the trains on services from Puglia to Naples and Rome at end of 2018.

The V250 trains were originally supplied by AnsldoBreda to Netherlands Railways (NS) and Belgian National Railways (SNCB), for operation on Amsterdam - Brussels Fyra high-speed service, but were rendered surplus by the collapse of Fyra in 2013 and returned to AnsaldoBreda in 2014.

I'm sure like allot of other things produced by AnsaldoBreda significant work is going to have to be done to ensure they work.
Sam

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Some more information here: http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...nitalia-agrees-to-acquire-v250-trainsets.html
They will mostly be concentrated south of Rome.
Note that Hitachi, who now own the manufacturing plant at Pistoia, will not be taking on responsibility for the design (though they will be doing some upgrade work).

Trenitalia anticipates that following some technical changes the V250s will be able to operate reliably on medium-speed routes. Thanks to their 25*kV 50*Hz and 3 kV*DC capability, the trains are suitable for operation throughout Italy. The first four sets are expected to enter service on Puglia routes in June 2018, replacing ETR485 and ETR600 Pendolinos working Frecciargento and Frecciarossa services from Roma and Napoli to Foggia and Bari. The other 13 will follow over the next year, with two sets being used for spare parts

 

[sarahj]

Thats a bit unlike to railjournal in their reporting. Returned due to the 'collapse' of Fyra. errrr, it went wrong as the trains were late and had the build quality of a Lada* and the reliability of a chocolate fireguard.



*I know someone will say, Lada's, built to last, but the ones imported into the UK had to be rebuilt by the importer and have you seen one in a crash, they just disintegrate.

 

[Bungle965]

Thats a bit unlike to railjournal in their reporting. Returned due to the 'collapse' of Fyra. errrr, it went wrong as the trains were late and had the build quality of a Lada* and the reliability of a chocolate fireguard.



*I know someone will say, Lada's, built to last, but the ones imported into the UK had to be rebuilt by the importer and have you seen one in a crash, they just disintegrate.

I seem to remember the 'collapse' of Fyra was down to the V250s exceptionally poor reliability and them having to be withdrawn from service.
Sam

 

[sarahj]

I seem to remember the 'collapse' of Fyra was down to the V250s exceptionally poor reliability and them having to be withdrawn from service.
Sam

I thought thats what I said. Oh well.

 

[Bungle965]

I thought thats what I said. Oh well.

Yes! Sorry should have read through what you said a bit more, I was simply agreeing with you that Fyra's demise was down to the V250s themselves.
Sam

 

[Groningen]

Hope that there is in southern Italy no snow, freezing rain or other stuff falling down in the winter.

 

[Wolfie]

Hmmm... state-owned company leaned on to take ("buy"?) old junk to bail out another company (Finmeccanica, AnsaldoBreda's former owner - Hitachi had the sense to go nowhere near this rubbish) where the state is a significant shareholder...

Cynical, moi... Wonder how this aligns with EU rules on state aid?

 

[duesselmartin]

Interesting that the rubbish will be dumped in the south. No Milanese will ever be bothered with it

 

[MarcVD]

Still some snow in North Italy during winter sometimes... Sending them south should help avoiding some very predictable *incidents*.

Envoyé de mon SM-T819 en utilisant Tapatalk

 

[eastwestdivide]

News article (in Italian) on these trains at:
http://www.ferrovie.it/portale/articoli/7336

saying that they've got a unit doing test runs on the high speed lines around Naples, with the line blocked to other traffic.
They're now designated ETR.700, and should be in regular Frecciarossa service from Dec 2018.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Hmmm... state-owned company leaned on to take ("buy"?) old junk to bail out another company (Finmeccanica, AnsaldoBreda's former owner - Hitachi had the sense to go nowhere near this rubbish) where the state is a significant shareholder...
Cynical, moi... Wonder how this aligns with EU rules on state aid?

It just parallels what is happening at Alitalia, which the state will not let die or be absorbed by the big boys.
Trenitalia is now a UK (and Greek) operator, of course, and is supposed to be readying itself for partial privatisation (to pay for the last EU Italian bailout).
It will be fun if they win West Coast and run HS2 with First.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I really, really hope they don't.

 

[Iskra]

Still some snow in North Italy during winter sometimes... Sending them south should help avoiding some very predictable *incidents*.

Envoyé de mon SM-T819 en utilisant Tapatalk

It snows in Southern Italy too. The whole of the South is mountainous away from the coast.

As a regular visitor to the South, I'll be happy to take a ride on these for the novelty if nothing else.

 

[axlecounter]

I really, really hope they don't.

Why not?

According to supposedly reliable rumours the V250 will be doing Frecciarossa trains in northern Italy.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why not?

Because I don't think TI are any good (and I don't like the Romance pseudo-airline approach to high speed rail)! But it's OT for this thread.

As for the V250s, they are pig-ugly as well as technically rubbish. Will be interesting to see if they are made to be reliable.

 

[Royston Vasey]

One does worry about the Class 802s being made by AnsaldoBreda's Pistoia plant... hopefully now with a full Hitachi quality management system

 

[Bletchleyite]

One does worry about the Class 802s being made by AnsaldoBreda's Pistoia plant... hopefully now with a full Hitachi quality management system

I too am concerned about the 802s from the AnsaldoBreda plant being rubbish.

 

[axlecounter]

So, everything out of Italy is rubbish...

 

[43096]

So, everything out of Italy is rubbish...

In terms of rolling stock, that’s a pretty good first assumption. Ask NS, SNCB, DSB, Manchester Metrolink and numerous others what they think of Italian build quality.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In terms of rolling stock, that’s a pretty good first assumption. Ask NS, SNCB, DSB, Manchester Metrolink and numerous others what they think of Italian build quality.

There's a reason why FIATs are known as "Fix It Again Tomorrow".

Italy is culturally good at design flair - but not at heavy engineering.

 

[gingerheid]

There's no escaping the fact that AnsaldoBreda were very often too awful for words; Fyra was not an isolated incident (though at least they didn't give one Fyra's trains to Gadaffi...)

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's no escaping the fact that AnsaldoBreda were very often too awful for words; Fyra was not an isolated incident (though at least they didn't give one Fyra's trains to Gadaffi...)

And it strikes me that such a major cultural change at an established business is incredibly difficult. Therefore, I fear the products will still be rubbish (in terms of build quality; at least they now don't get to design them any more).

Mind you, when I rode an 800 I observed quite a number of build quality issues, and that I think was a Japanese built one - I was shocked.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There's a reason why FIATs are known as "Fix It Again Tomorrow".
Italy is culturally good at design flair - but not at heavy engineering.

They seem to have made a pretty good fist of their high-speed network though, including some very long tunnels, and most of the trains are locally built.
Over here the Fiat-designed Pendolinos are pretty good (didn't start too well, granted), but there's French Alstom in there too, not to mention Preston electrics.

 

[Royston Vasey]

So, everything out of Italy is rubbish...

Nobody said that

 

[TheSeeker]

I was on a Fyra commuting to the Netherlands on the second day of service (which I think was a Monday morning). Train crew had had little training and couldn't work the PA or doors correctly. Snow didn't help either. I remember we got as far as Roosendaal and we changed onto NS. Not the best time of year to start a new service.

 

[Darandio]

Nobody said that

Yet had they done so they wouldn't be far from the mark!

 

[EAD]

Parking some of the stereotypes being bandied about (I say this as someone married to a Sicilian so am well versed in some of the intra and extra Italian views held by people), here is hoping the ETR 700s as they will be actually work in service after the mods and testing given what they have inherited!

For those interested Italian sites have a few articles on the testing, mods etc. This is on the testing on 13/14 April on the high speed line from Naples towards Rome (and back). PM is Posto di Movimento i.e. a location with points to cross over and often loops http://www.ferrovie.it/portale/articoli/7336

And this one is on the works at Hitachi http://www.ferrovie.info/index.php/it/42-primo-piano/4866-ferrovie-procedono-i-lavori-sugli-etr-700-di-trenitalia-ex-fyra-v250.

 

[Chris125]

One does worry about the Class 802s being made by AnsaldoBreda's Pistoia plant... hopefully now with a full Hitachi quality management system

Hopefully it's more an issue with how they've been designed than anything fundamentally wrong with the factory, the Frecciarossa 1000s built at Pistoia in a joint venture with Bombardier seem to have turned out ok?

 

[43096]

Hopefully it's more an issue with how they've been designed than anything fundamentally wrong with the factory, the Frecciarossa 1000s built at Pistoia in a joint venture with Bombardier seem to have turned out ok?

The issue - at least with the Fyras - was primarily with the build quality, which was abysmal (abysmal, not just poor) although there were also some design flaws.