Transpennine Express decide not to use MK3's on limited services

[Chester1]

According to RTT there won't be any LHCS duties, but during the works there'll be a saving of up to three diagrams, so it's presumably thought that loco-hauled workings won't be necessary.

Thats still a shame because an extra 3 x 185s on south TPE services would provide temporary relief for overcrowding. So according to RTT the Mark III sets are not due to start services until end of July now?

 

[Bovverboy]

According to RTT the sets are due to operate 21 to 25 May and 28 May to 1 June.

 

[37201xoIM]

Thats still a shame because an extra 3 x 185s on south TPE services would provide temporary relief for overcrowding. So according to RTT the Mark III sets are not due to start services until end of July now?

Entirely agreed! As per the post from "bovverboy", it's still hoped that they will at least appear (or at least one will!) before the blockade - not least in response to stakeholder pressure...

 

[BMIFlyer]

According to RTT the sets are due to operate 21 to 25 May and 28 May to 1 June.

Not entirely sure how you are seeing that but all TPE services are shown on RTT on the LIV-SCA route from May 21 as a class 185 no LHCS. They are pathed as a 185 because Network Rail wouldn't allow paths to be inserted as LHCS in case they didn't run.

Entirely agreed! As per the post from "bovverboy", it's still hoped that they will at least appear (or at least one will!) before the blockade - not least in response to stakeholder pressure...

The current stage is that there is still training ongoing for the crews, so as of the moment all the trains will be 185's from May. We shall receive 3 days notice if enough crews are class 68 trained and from thence we shall swap the diagrams over, but they will still be in the system (on RTT) as a class 185.

 

[BMIFlyer]

Thats still a shame because an extra 3 x 185s on south TPE services would provide temporary relief for overcrowding. So according to RTT the Mark III sets are not due to start services until end of July now?

The extra class 185's on the South route begin in December. That has always been the plan.

 

[BMIFlyer]

During the Liverpool Street summer works it looks like most of the Scarborough services will be turning at Manchester Victoria - does anyone know will the MK3s run to the same timings those days please?

https://www.tpexpress.co.uk/travel-updates/liverpool-summer-2018

No they won't be running, as there is nowhere to stable LHCS at MCV between duties.

 

[Chester1]

The extra class 185's on the South route begin in December. That has always been the plan.

I know but unless TPE have other plans then why not use them to temporarily boost other routes during the closure of Lime Street?

 

[BeHereNow]

No they won't be running, as there is nowhere to stable LHCS at MCV between duties.

There's a 190m turnback on the west side of Victoria?

No Mk3s from May, on one of the country's most overcrowded TOCs. 'We remain committed to customers'! http://www.liverpoolchamber.org.uk/article.aspx/show/29057

 

[37201xoIM]

Not entirely sure how you are seeing that but all TPE services are shown on RTT on the LIV-SCA route from May 21 as a class 185 no LHCS. They are pathed as a 185 because Network Rail wouldn't allow paths to be inserted as LHCS in case they didn't run.



The current stage is that there is still training ongoing for the crews, so as of the moment all the trains will be 185's from May. We shall receive 3 days notice if enough crews are class 68 trained and from thence we shall swap the diagrams over, but they will still be in the system (on RTT) as a class 185.

Thanks: it sounds as though your inside info might be a little more "inside" than mine is.....

 

[BMIFlyer]

There's a 190m turnback on the west side of Victoria?

Which will already be busy enough...

Mk3s from May, on one of the country's most overcrowded TOCs. 'We remain committed to customers'! http://www.liverpoolchamber.org.uk/article.aspx/show/29057

I didn't say that there would for certain be no MK3's from May, I said it depends on crew training as to exactly when they will enter service. They will arrive, just no exact date set, yet. Crew training started later than originally planned.

Thanks: it sounds as though your inside info might be a little more "inside" than mine is.....

Ha Not so sure at times, but the people I work alongside know a lot more than I am allowed write on here.

 

[geoffk]

I didn't say that there would for certain be no MK3's from May, I said it depends on crew training as to exactly when they will enter service. They will arrive, just no exact date set, yet. Crew training started later than originally planned.

Even if the two loco hauled sets are in service on 21st May, will TPE not still be short of stock, as they are having to resource an additional hourly Manchester - Leeds semi-fast every hour, which requires three units. Are they saving a set somewhere else?

 

[BMIFlyer]

Even if the two loco hauled sets are in service on 21st May, will TPE not still be short of stock, as they are having to resource an additional hourly Manchester - Leeds semi-fast every hour, which requires three units. Are they saving a set somewhere else?

A set is saved by the LIV-SCA-LIV turn taking under 6 hours instead of the current 7 hours

 

[Starmill]

Isn't the number of units going on daily hire to Northern being reduced too?

 

[Mollman]

Isn't the number of units going on daily hire to Northern being reduced too?

Yes, Northern are replacing them with 158s plus reducing the number of through services to Manchester from Cumbria.

 

[BeHereNow]

Hopefully they'll be in service for May, given the expansion on a number of routes.

 

[Chester1]

= 3 fewer units in total?

@BMIFlyer should be able to give you the answer in regards to 185s.

Don't forgot that Northern has received 4 x 170s, 2 x 158s and I think about 15 x 150 since December.

 

[Bovverboy]

Bovverboy said: ↑
According to RTT the sets are due to operate 21 to 25 May and 28 May to 1 June.

Not entirely sure how you are seeing that but all TPE services are shown on RTT on the LIV-SCA route from May 21 as a class 185 no LHCS.

I was going by the existence of the ECS workings to/from Crewe. If the LHCS can't run, they can't run.

They are pathed as a 185 because Network Rail wouldn't allow paths to be inserted as LHCS in case they didn't run.

That's sensible enough, but would LHCS-specific diagrams be timed faster than 185?

 

[BMIFlyer]

@BMIFlyer should be able to give you the answer in regards to 185s.

Don't forgot that Northern has received 4 x 170s, 2 x 158s and I think about 15 x 150 since December.

Northern will lease 2x185 per day from May onward.

I was going by the existence of the ECS workings to/from Crewe. If the LHCS can't run, they can't run.

Those are in the system to gain the appropriate paths to and from Crewe, should the LHCS be used.

That's sensible enough, but would LHCS-specific diagrams be timed faster than 185?

They technically are going to be faster in service, acceleration wise. The issue with paths also is station dwell times, which will be longer for LHCS as opposed to a 185 being used, for many reasons.

 

[Bovverboy]

sharpinf said: ↑
During the Liverpool Street summer works it looks like most of the Scarborough services will be turning at Manchester Victoria - does anyone know will the MK3s run to the same timings those days please?

https://www.tpexpress.co.uk/travel-updates/liverpool-summer-2018

No they won't be running, as there is nowhere to stable LHCS at MCV between duties.

According to RTT the Scarboroughs are going to be using Platforms 1 & 2, with no shunt move involved. So whether LHCS could be used simply depends on whether an LHCS set would fit in those platforms. But we're already pretty sure that, while the Lime Street works are ongoing, there won't be any LHCS on Scarboroughs.

The Newcastles are shown as generally arriving Platform 3 and departing Platform 4, with a trip to the reversing siding in between. Whilst there, a 319 off the Huyton stopper is scheduled to double up. There do look to be one or two exceptions to this arrangement, though.

 

[Bovverboy]

Bovverboy said: ↑
That's sensible enough, but would LHCS-specific diagrams be timed faster than 185?

They technically are going to be faster in service, acceleration wise. The issue with paths also is station dwell times, which will be longer for LHCS as opposed to a 185 being used, for many reasons.

An LHCS diagram will either fit inside a 185 diagram or it won't, whatever the station dwell times might be.

 

[BMIFlyer]

An LHCS diagram will either fit inside a 185 diagram or it won't, whatever the station dwell times might be.

Not according to Network Rail. LHCS services will use different pathing times...

According to RTT the Scarboroughs are going to be using Platforms 1 & 2, with no shunt move involved. So whether LHCS could be used simply depends on whether an LHCS set would fit in those platforms. But we're already pretty sure that, while the Lime Street works are ongoing, there won't be any LHCS on Scarboroughs.

The Newcastles are shown as generally arriving Platform 3 and departing Platform 4, with a trip to the reversing siding in between. Whilst there, a 319 off the Huyton stopper is scheduled to double up. There do look to be one or two exceptions to this arrangement, though.

Not that simple re the LHCS turnarounds at MCV. Too much to explain on here, so I won't.

 

[Bovverboy]

Bovverboy said:↑
An LHCS diagram will either fit inside a 185 diagram or it won't, whatever the station dwell times might be.

BMIFlyer said:
Not according to Network Rail. LHCS services will use different pathing times...

You've already said that the LHCS sets will use 185 paths.

Not entirely sure how you are seeing that but all TPE services are shown on RTT on the LIV-SCA route from May 21 as a class 185 no LHCS. They are pathed as a 185 because Network Rail wouldn't allow paths to be inserted as LHCS in case they didn't run.

 

[BMIFlyer]

You've already said that the LHCS sets will use 185 paths.

Let me refresh...

The trains are pathed as a 185 because pathing them as a loco hauled train in the system brings up other issues to deal with. I'm not going any deeper into that.

 

[CosherB]

Why would they? If it isn't due a repaint, why spend money unnecessarily? The vehicles go off lease next year and are not PRM modified, so it's not like they have a long future.

Indeed. Maybe Porterbrook will repaint the ex-Pretendolino carriages into AGA livery so all of their Mk3s match eventually. Pigs might fly.

 

[Starmill]

It doesn't seem terribly likely that the trains will actually be carrying passengers before 30th July

 

[BMIFlyer]

It doesn't seem terribly likely that the trains will actually be carrying passengers before 30th July

Correct, it seems what I wrote in reply 544 has been confirmed now.

 

[37201xoIM]

Correct, it seems what I wrote in reply 544 has been confirmed now.

If that is correct, I would hope and expect that Rail North Partnership will go ballistic over this flagrant and entirely avoidable franchise breach.

[The technical term for the above comment is "the triumph of hope over experience".]

 

[BMIFlyer]

If that is correct, I would hope and expect that Rail North Partnership will go ballistic over this flagrant and entirely avoidable franchise breach.

[The technical term for the above comment is "the triumph of hope over experience".]

It has been put back until the Lime Street rebuild is finished, that is all.

In my opinion, a good decision. Makes it easier to fix various issues before service starts. There were a lot of things needing to be done to the stock regardless of the crew training and other staff training too.

 

[37201xoIM]

It has been put back until the Lime Street rebuild is finished, that is all.

In my opinion, a good decision. Makes it easier to fix various issues before service starts. There were a lot of things needing to be done to the stock regardless of the crew training and other staff training too.

I have to disagree with you, I'm afraid: what you say would be reasonable if today's date were not 10 May 2018. This franchise has been running for over 2 years. There has been more than ample time to get eight (strictly ten but I won't labour that point) coaches ready for the Dec 17 TT change, let alone May 18.

It is not the franchisee's place to make unilateral decisions as to whether it wants to abide by its contractual obligations - in the face of critical levels of crowding.

 

[BMIFlyer]

I guess we shall see what happens in the next couple of weeks then.