Alstom Class 321 Hydrogen 'Breeze' Updates & Discussion

[absolutelymilk]

According to the Times, Alstom will convert 321s to run on hydrogen, and these trains could be running within three years.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/4ac977e6-5620-11e8-9871-a6b7d2d44e9e

The conversions will take place in fleets of up to 15 trains a time at Alstom’s factory in Widnes, Cheshire, and the first could be ready by 2021. Eventually all 100 class 321 trains could be converted.

 

[XCTurbostar]

As far as I can see. No actual TOC has been put forward in this media report. I’m sure the local MPs would love a 30 year old 321 taking over from a 20 year old 170..

Edit: this is an interesting reference document https://anonw.com/2018/05/13/hydrogen-trains-herald-new-steam-age/

 

[_toommm_]

Think of how long the Eversholt?? 321 has took to be brought back into service - the furthest I've seen it go is from behind the barrier at Donc. West Yard to the sidings behind the building to G3 in the yard.

Not to be a pessimist but it may take longer than three years.

 

[D365]

Not to be a pessimist but it may take longer than three years.

What are the chances of a "Class 771" appearing before a Class 769 then?

 

[_toommm_]

What are the chances of a "Class 771" appearing before a Class 769 then?

In my opinion, next to none.

Diesel power is a more known-about technology as opposed to hydrogen fuel cells, and of course gas is less predictable than liquid, due to the free-er particles.

 

[superkev]

Roger Ford of Modern railways rubbished hydrogen power until someone finds a way of producing it much cheaper. If using electricity and electrolysis only 30% of the energy put in reached the wheels compared with over 75% using conventional electrification.
Non starter at the moment.

 

[Domh245]

Roger is also saying that most fuel cells produce kW of power rather than the MW that rolling stock needs.

 

[D365]

Roger is also saying that most fuel cells produce kW of power rather than the MW that rolling stock needs.

Which isn't a significant improvement on the Valence battery technology in the Class 379 then.

 

[gazthomas]

Roger is also saying that most fuel cells produce kW of power rather than the MW that rolling stock needs.

A single train can't need megawatts surely?

Correction - I just Googled 3,000 HP is 2.2 MW.

I'm amazed!

 

[Domh245]

A single train can't need megawatts surely?

Correction - I just Googled 3,000 HP is 2.2 MW.

I'm amazed!

It's a good point, my googling suggests that a 321 has ~1MW of traction motors, and so with enough fuel cells (a 321 having nearly 3 cars of underfloor real estate to play with) you could probably give it full power. I think Roger's comments need to be taken in a wider view than just this project though, fuel cells (like bi-modes and other novel means of providing electricity to a rail vehicle) aren't particularly suitable for the whole network. That isn't to say that they don't have a place, but they aren't an excuse to not electrify.

Which isn't a significant improvement on the Valence battery technology in the Class 379 then.

Depends on the numbers really, what sort of wattage were the batteries on the 379? Googling has told me that they were 500kWh, but presumably maximum power was considerably higher. It also depends on how powerful the fuel cells actually are, there haven't been any publicly released numbers on that front.

 

[D365]

Depends on the numbers really, what sort of wattage were the batteries on the 379? Googling has told me that they were 500kWh, but presumably maximum power was considerably higher. It also depends on how powerful the fuel cells actually are, there haven't been any publicly released numbers on that front.

400-500kWh as a ball park figure right. I'm not sure on the maximum discharge rate, that may be dependent on cooling. At full power a battery powered 379 would only operate for ~15 mins - 379013 was limited to 60mph top speed in battery mode.

If a hydrogen fuel cell system can't offer much more, I really can't see it being a starter. As an example of the rate of progression in battery storage technology. Tesla/Panasonic lithium-ions can offer twice the storage capacity of the Valence type.

 

[bangor-toad]

Roger is also saying that most fuel cells produce kW of power rather than the MW that rolling stock needs.

Yes, but he's missed the point.
A hydrogen fuel cell is small. At the moment it's possible to get an energy generation density from hydrogen fuel cells of better than 3Kw per litre. That's commercially available - not the research stuff. Just use a lot of them...

Wikipedia says a Class 321 takes/uses 1,438hp or 1,072 kW (about a Megawatt). With that sort of energy generation density that'd take about 360l to produce the required power output.
360l isn't very big. I make that a box 1metre by 60cm by 60cm. That's very much the size of a comparable diesel engine.
OK, there's a need for all the ancillary plumbing but fundamentally the fuel cell size & power output isn't an issue.

The two issues are around the hydrogen storage and the economics of it all. Those will be the bits to watch...
Cheers,
Mr Toad

 

[edwin_m]

Depends on the numbers really, what sort of wattage were the batteries on the 379? Googling has told me that they were 500kWh, but presumably maximum power was considerably higher. It also depends on how powerful the fuel cells actually are, there haven't been any publicly released numbers on that front.

kWh is a measure of the energy stored and says nothing about the power (which is the rate at which that energy can be released). A battery or a fuel cell system needs to have enough energy stored on board to cover whatever mileage it is designed for, but also be able to produce enough power to get a reasonable performance. For systems that store energy it's helpful if the storage can absorb the power produced during a regenerative brake application, which helps to keep the storage topped up.

Fuel cells aren't very good at producing the peaks of power needed when a train accelerates, so we could actually be looking at something that also has battery or supercapacitor storage on board to boost the acceleration, topped up during regenerative braking or when the fuel cell is producing power the train doesn't need.

 

[InTheEastMids]

Roger Ford of Modern railways rubbished hydrogen power until someone finds a way of producing it much cheaper. If using electricity and electrolysis only 30% of the energy put in reached the wheels compared with over 75% using conventional electrification.
Non starter at the moment.

This poor end-end efficiency is the defining issue for the whole "hydrogen economy". Whilst I don't doubt there are some niches where it will play a big role, any application involving hydrogen from renewable electricity is going to need to have a business case that justifies a fuel that costs around 3x more than electricity.

The alternative is to use natural gas - convert it to hydrogen and bury the arising CO2 in a CCS scheme. This is the angle that the gas industry - particularly NG and Cadent - are pushing, because the alternative is a slow death spiral for the industry.

A quick word of advice to anybody reading comparative reports about H2, batteries and so on is to study the assumptions used about both the technology they may be advocating, and competing technologies. Cost of Capital was always a nice one, because playing about with that allowed one to conclusively demonstrate with - a single calculation - that wind power was cheaper than gas turbine power. Or the other way around, depending on what beliefs people wanted reinforcing...

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

It'll be interesting to learn more about the economics of this. The anonw article says that Ineos (and doubtless other petrochemical processors) have surplus hydrogen available. If this is currently not being used and simply vented to the atmosphere then the cost of obtaining it for traction use is effectively limited to distribution and storage costs. Given the general push to move away from ICE powered vehicles this idea may have more legs than some think. And I include myself among the sceptics!

 

[D365]

This poor end-end efficiency is the defining issue for the whole "hydrogen economy". Whilst I don't doubt there are some niches where it will play a big role, any application involving hydrogen from renewable electricity is going to need to have a business case that justifies a fuel that costs around 3x more than electricity.

Indeed; as much as Grayling bleats on about bi-mode this and bionic duckweed that (don't even get me started on "Digital Railway") - how is the business case going to compare to a rolling electrification investment.

 

[Domh245]

how is the business case going to compare to a rolling electrification investment.

Depends how much the DfT want to fiddle the business case to avoid having to pay for electrification (itself perhaps symptomatic of the DfT/Treasury not trusting NR)

 

[B&I]

Depends how much the DfT want to fiddle the business case to avoid having to pay for electrification (itself perhaps symptomatic of the DfT/Treasury not trusting NR)

Or symptomatic of DfT/Treasury having a long-standing antipathy to electrification, stretching the best part of 20 years, and pre-dating NR's stumbles recently

 

[D365]

Or symptomatic of DfT/Treasury having a long-standing antipathy to putting any kind of money into the railway industry, stretching the best part of 20 years, and explaining the best part of NR's stumbles recently

Fixed.

 

[Surreyman]

According to the Times, Alstom will convert 321s to run on hydrogen, and these trains could be running within three years.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/4ac977e6-5620-11e8-9871-a6b7d2d44e9e

An example of 'Sloppy B****ht reporting' the Times ought to do better.
Don't doubt that they are planning a trial conversion but all the stuff about up to a 100 units and where the trains might be running ... someone 'talking up things ' to a lazy/naive journalist who has 'sexed up' the article.
He refers to Class 321 Diesel trains??? - Obviously a stickler for detail and checking of facts, you would expect this from a small local newspaper but not a national daily.
I imagine Roger Ford will be able to provide more accurate details in Junes MR.

 

[Surreyman]

An example of 'Sloppy B****ht reporting' the Times ought to do better.
Don't doubt that they are planning a trial conversion but all the stuff about up to a 100 units and where the trains might be running ... someone 'talking up things ' to a lazy/naive journalist who has 'sexed up' the article.
He refers to Class 321 Diesel trains??? - Obviously a stickler for detail and checking of facts, you would expect this from a small local newspaper but not a national daily.
I imagine Roger Ford will be able to provide more accurate details in Junes MR.

(Before someone queries my reference to Diesel 321s, my hard copy of the Sunday times states Diesel, I note the link to the online article above reads Electric, the proof readers did a good job!)

 

[NickBucks]

(Before someone queries my reference to Diesel 321s, my hard copy of the Sunday times states Diesel, I note the link to the online article above reads Electric, the proof readers did a good job!)

Surreyman
You got in before me. And to think I pay a subscription to that newspaper in the belief that what I read is accurate !

 

[Chester1]

Rail Magazine has posted on Facebook that Alstom has confirmed that it is working with Eversholt to convert the 321s.

 

[Andy25]

Does nobody think that Alstom won't have done their sums to ensure the available power and energy storage isn't sufficient for the routes they're suggesting.

It's also no coincidence that the 2 routes suggested both are known for the local chemical industries which produce hydrogen as a bi-product of other processes. On Merseyside over 50,000kg of hydrogen is produced annually as a bi-product of chlorine production.

 

[Andy25]

Indeed; as much as Grayling bleats on about bi-mode this and bionic duckweed that (don't even get me started on "Digital Railway") - how is the business case going to compare to a rolling electrification investment.

If the hydrogen comes from existing sources like industrial bi-product the cost is the transport of the hydrogen and the rolling stock. I'd say for the lines where hydrogen is suitable that would be much cheaper

 

[WatcherZero]

Alstom last year apparently volunteered to supply a trial unit for the Halton Curve service (being referred to in newspapers as a Widnes service) with it being close to their Pendolino painting facility and an existing commercial gas supplier in Liverpool. I presume the Tyne service is similarly near an existing commercial supplier.

 

[Domh245]

Does nobody think that Alstom won't have done their sums to ensure the available power and energy storage isn't sufficient for the routes they're suggesting.

It's also no coincidence that the 2 routes suggested both are known for the local chemical industries which produce hydrogen as a bi-product of other processes.

That's certainly not the point that I think Roger Ford was trying to make - Hydrogen no doubt has it's uses, but it shouldn't be used as a get out clause for electrification (although the current cost of electrification works against that somewhat)

Also - for those wondering what the suggested routes are and haven't looked in the article, the 2 suggested routes are Liverpool - Widnes, and Bishop Auckland - Middlesborough. They've also got East West Rail as a 'proposed' line on the map.

 

[lordbusiness]

Be an interesting safety case having tanks of highly explosive gas on a passenger train. Offers on names for the first three converted:
Hindenburg
R101
Zeppelin

 

[Chester1]

That's certainly not the point that I think Roger Ford was trying to make - Hydrogen no doubt has it's uses, but it shouldn't be used as a get out clause for electrification (although the current cost of electrification works against that somewhat)

Also - for those wondering what the suggested routes are and haven't looked in the article, the 2 suggested routes are Liverpool - Widnes, and Bishop Auckland - Middlesborough. They've also got East West Rail as a 'proposed' line on the map.

I agree hydrogen trains should be seen as a niche solution for some lines, behind battery EMUs and further electrification. I am surprised by Liverpool-Widnes because there is no such service! Presumably it would be the whole Liverpool-Manchester Oxford Road CLC stopping service, running on electric from Lime Steeet to South Parkway and Trafford Park to Oxford Road. 4 coaches, doors at thirds and 3+2 seating would be right for the service.

 

[driver_m]

I agree hydrogen trains should be seen as a niche solution for some lines, behind battery EMUs and further electrification. I am surprised by Liverpool-Widnes because there is no such service! Presumably it would be the whole Liverpool-Manchester Oxford Road CLC stopping service, running on electric from Lime Steeet to South Parkway and Trafford Park to Oxford Road. 4 coaches, doors at thirds and 3+2 seating would be right for the service.

Ditton reopening? It's on the Merseytravel wishlist. Though as said above, Halton curve trial and inaccuracy by the times writer would be more likely. After all. Southern journos are not very good at Northern England's geography.