Class 365s to Scotrail

[D365]

I presume the arrangements with the trolleys will also remain the same with the 365s.

365s are trolley-compatible?

What kind of luxury is this?!

 

[hexagon789]

365s are trolley-compatible?

What kind of luxury is this?!

Well they have the trolleys on the 380s so surely they are going to have them on the 365s? Or is that something ScotRail have neglected to inform us of?

 

[scotraildriver]

It depends at bit on the guards discrestion. On a peak time commuter train the guard may well check tickets in both sets. But on a weekend night or football/rugby day when the chances of trouble or passcom alarms are much higher the guard may well choose to remain in the rear 3 set. The guards are quite good at making the call on what to do.

 

[hexagon789]

It depends at bit on the guards discrestion. On a peak time commuter train the guard may well check tickets in both sets. But on a weekend night or football/rugby day when the chances of trouble or passcom alarms are much higher the guard may well choose to remain in the rear 3 set. The guards are quite good at making the call on what to do.

I don't doubt they are, I can see why now it often proves more logical to just remain in the rear set.

 

[gingertom]

on a weekend night or football/rugby day when the chances of trouble are much higher...

there would also be a visible BTP presence to nip anything in the bud.

 

[scotraildriver]

Not likely. They don't travel on trains generally. Tbe vast majority of trains I drive have no police presence.

 

[LowLevel]

Some do but not generally. If a passcom was to be activated in the rear set and both the driver (obviously ) and guard were in the front it would require a line blockage to enable the guard to return to the rear set to reset. Delays and pain in the bum. 1 member of staff in each set and a is well.

Would they really take a line blockage for that? It's no different to the driver using an SPT as long as you stay cess side and use the train as protection.

 

[gingertom]

Not likely. They don't travel on trains generally. Tbe vast majority of trains I drive have no police presence.

on the odd occasion I've travelled to/from a game there's been a presence. I accept it would not be standard procedure but if there's intel that suggests possible trouble they would make their presence felt.

 

[scotraildriver]

Would they really take a line blockage for that? It's no different to the driver using an SPT as long as you stay cess side and use the train as protection.

Depends where it is. On the up South or down North at Haymarket as an example then yes. Other locations maybe not.

 

[Failed Unit]

365s are trolley-compatible?

What kind of luxury is this?!

They had trolleys when introduced between Cambridge and London. I think that ramsgate route had them as well.

 

[Failed Unit]

It doesnt. The majority of passengers on this route board or alight at Edinburgh or Glasgow both of which have ticket barriers. There isn't a great deal of ticket fraud on this route

Really. Most passengers wanting a free ride know to go to the front 3 coaches. I guess it is still the minority but they exist. “Single from Bishopsbriggs / Edinburgh Park please”

 

[D365]

They had trolleys when introduced between Cambridge and London. I think that ramsgate route had them as well.

I had a feeling there might have been, but I’ve certainly not seen it in my lifetime

 

[Hadders]

Is anti-social behaviour in Scotland worse than in the south east? We've managed with driver only 365s on the GN since they were introduced in the mid-1990s. 12 car formations at times as well.

 

[Failed Unit]

I had a feeling there might have been, but I’ve certainly not seen it in my lifetime

I think they disappeared around the time national express took over WAGN after they bought out prism. So at least 15 years ago.

Speaking of WAGN. Anyone remember the local vandals changing the “thank you for travelling WAGN for free”. Same problem exists in Scotland. Short journeys between unstaffed station passengers take their chance and travel in front set. In fact it is worse up thier as no penalty fare scheme exists, so you can legitimately wait for the guard.

Yes I know you should buy before you board. But unless things have changed recently TVMs don’t take cash and the ticket office staff often have other priorities.

 

[LowLevel]

Depends where it is. On the up South or down North at Haymarket as an example then yes. Other locations maybe not.

Good point - I had forgotten the law of Sod means you grind to a halt in the most inopportune location possible (my last 2 were in the middle of Disley Tunnel and straddling the station throat at Manchester Picc. Both on 158s with no override. Oops).

 

[edwin_m]

Some do but not generally. If a passcom was to be activated in the rear set and both the driver (obviously ) and guard were in the front it would require a line blockage to enable the guard to return to the rear set to reset. Delays and pain in the bum. 1 member of staff in each set and a is well.

With both termini having the relevant platforms accessed past the buffer stops, having gangways between units should help distribute passengers down the train. But they've managed without them on the 170s so they should be able to do so for a few months longer on the 365s.

 

[Stopper]

Fare evasion is huge on the E-G, whether it’s intermediate travellers (Falkirk to Croy/Linlithgow) or passengers buying tickets once they arrive at either end, lying about where they came from.

I think there also a fair number of trains that go to the through platforms at Edinburgh at later times.

 

[geoffk]

365523 was at Charnock Richard services this morning.

You mean they're going by ROAD? Sorry if I've missed something. Surely they could be dragged at least as they can't be out of gauge, being the same dimensions as the class 325 mail units, but what's the problem with running them under their own power? This never used to happen under BR (but then nor did many other things).

 

[DanNCL]

You mean they're going by ROAD? Sorry if I've missed something. Surely they could be dragged at least as they can't be out of gauge, being the same dimensions as the class 325 mail units, but what's the problem with running them under their own power? This never used to happen under BR (but then nor did many other things).

The first two units went by road. The third unit was dragged via the WCML. I think all further units are being dragged.

 

[ScottDarg]

You mean they're going by ROAD?

Not anymore: https://flic.kr/p/26YYxjJ

The first two units went by road. The third unit was dragged via the WCML. I think all further units are being dragged.

Three units went by road - 523, 513 and 517. 525 was the fourth unit to arrive and was the first to be dragged up the WCML.

 

[DanNCL]

Three units went by road - 523, 513 and 517. 525 was the fourth and was the first to be dragged up the WCML.

I stand corrected, didn't realise that 517 also went by road!

 

[Domh245]

You mean they're going by ROAD? Sorry if I've missed something. Surely they could be dragged at least as they can't be out of gauge, being the same dimensions as the class 325 mail units, but what's the problem with running them under their own power? This never used to happen under BR (but then nor did many other things).

The first couple of units were taken by road, although latterly they've been dragged up the WCML. They aren't the same dimensions as the 325s - the 325s are 319s with Networker cabs rather than pure networkers. It's also worth noting that the advantage of taking them by road is that they could go straight away and get into service sooner. Assuming route clearance began at the same time as the plans came about, the fact that the first unit was only dragged up recently gives an idea of how long it takes to sort it out, in the mean time a number of units have gone up and started training drivers on them. Who cares if a few trains go up by road if it means that they get into service sooner, I'm sure the people who'll benefit from the additional capacity on the Edinburgh - Glasgow line don't care one iota.

 

[gsnedders]

The first couple of units were taken by road, although latterly they've been dragged up the WCML. They aren't the same dimensions as the 325s - the 325s are 319s with Networker cabs rather than pure networkers. It's also worth noting that the advantage of taking them by road is that they could go straight away and get into service sooner. Assuming route clearance began at the same time as the plans came about, the fact that the first unit was only dragged up recently gives an idea of how long it takes to sort it out, in the mean time a number of units have gone up and started training drivers on them. Who cares if a few trains go up by road if it means that they get into service sooner, I'm sure the people who'll benefit from the additional capacity on the Edinburgh - Glasgow line don't care one iota.

And likely they started on the route clearance within Scotland first, and only after that was done started trying to get a better plan for moving them north. Because, again, without the route clearance in Scotland they can't do anything, and moving them there are obvious alternatives (see: those that came by road).

 

[D365]

... but what's the problem with running them under their own power? This never used to happen under BR (but then nor did many other things).

BR didn't operate the Class 365s, so I don't know how you can suggest that. The Class 325s, as Domh45 points out, are Class 319 derivatives rather than 465 derivatives. Any comparison between the Class 325 and Class 365 is like chalk and cheese.

 

[Royston Vasey]

I think they disappeared around the time national express took over WAGN after they bought out prism. So at least 15 years ago.

Speaking of WAGN. Anyone remember the local vandals changing the “thank you for travelling WAGN for free”. Same problem exists in Scotland. Short journeys between unstaffed station passengers take their chance and travel in front set. In fact it is worse up thier as no penalty fare scheme exists, so you can legitimately wait for the guard.

Yes I know you should buy before you board. But unless things have changed recently TVMs don’t take cash and the ticket office staff often have other priorities.

I remember them in 2005-2006 on weekends, doing no business.

 

[furnessvale]

BR didn't operate the Class 365s, so I don't know how you can suggest that. The Class 325s, as Domh45 points out, are Class 319 derivatives rather than 465 derivatives. Any comparison between the Class 325 and Class 365 is like chalk and cheese.

I think therein lies the problem. Although I am basically a supporter of privatisation, one of the things that appears to have been lost is standardisation in areas like gauging.

In the "bad" old days we had things like C1 and C3 coach gauges. Now it appears that EVERY new build is unique and has to be individually passed fit for EVERY line in the country

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

BR didn't operate the Class 365s, so I don't know how you can suggest that. The Class 325s, as Domh45 points out, are Class 319 derivatives rather than 465 derivatives. Any comparison between the Class 325 and Class 365 is like chalk and cheese.

BR did operate the first 365s on the South Eastern shadow franchise in 1996.
They had about 2 months operation before passing to Connex South Eastern.
Only ever cleared for SE and GN operation though.
From no less an authority than Wikipedia...
They were the first passenger rolling stock to be leased rather than purchased by BR.

 

[swt_passenger]

So presumably the size of the 365 was very much decided by BR, given the lead times...

 

[Failed Unit]

So presumably the size of the 365 was very much decided by BR, given the lead times...

Yes. I am sure they operated on great northern under br as well even if it was only for a short while before the route was sanctioned.

Cynics say they were a political sweater to stop the York factory of BREL closing in the election that John Major won in 1992. Before privatisation was thought of as if that election had gone labour we may be looking at a very different railway.

 

[jopsuk]

it does amuse that they're going from a route where they operate services taking ~ 1hr 45 minutes over ~100 miles, including ~50 minutes non stop, operated DOO with no catering and running up to 12 cars on the non-stop portion, to a route of a bit over 40 miles and taking ~50 minutes that will have trolleys on many services and a guard on all services. Different priorities in different areas!