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EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

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dosxuk

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And those customs checks can take place at the ports between Ireland and the British mainland which is where the actual trade transports through. There should be absolutely nothing to prevent Ireland and the UK agreeing that the open land border remains. Both countries want that, and the only barrier to it is EU interference.

Actually, the EU is the one who has proposed that Northern Ireland remains in regulatory alignment with the EU, and the customs border is moved to the Irish Sea. The problem with the idea is the DUP - that small party who will have no part in putting any sort of barrier between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK, and also happen to be in a position to collapse the government.

This, in effect, is why nobody has gotten rid of May yet - they simply don't want the headache of taking over.
 
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fowler9

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I struggle to see how we can have a clean break with the EU and not have a hard border with ROI. Not because I want one (I am a Remainer) just that how can anyone in power agree to have hard borders at every other entry point to the UK but that one, it makes no sense. It makes the whole thing pointless.​
 

Bromley boy

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I struggle to see how we can have a clean break with the EU and not have a hard border with ROI. Not because I want one (I am a Remainer) just that how can anyone in power agree to have hard borders at every other entry point to the UK but that one, it makes no sense. It makes the whole thing pointless.​

From the discussion above it seems an “open” border from a movement of persons perspective could be made to work. The customs side of things needs some consideration, but there may be technological solutions available.

None of it sounds completely insoluble, given a little sensible compromise from both sides.
 

furnessvale

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Yet the new cars arriving at Southampton by sea still have to be transported to other parts of the country by road.
Of course. I was countering the statement that importing/exporting goods to/from the EU is "much" cheaper than transporting goods from much further afield.

Whether goods arrive from the far east at Southampton or the EU at Dover they still have to be transported to other parts of the country but, in the case of Southampton, they often have the rail option!
 

fowler9

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From the discussion above it seems an “open” border from a movement of persons perspective could be made to work. The customs side of things needs some consideration, but there may be technological solutions available.

None of it sounds completely insoluble, given a little sensible compromise from both sides.
I really hope so. Even as a Remainer I think that overturning the result of the referendum would produce a constitutional nightmare. The thing is that even if you just let people go to and fro across the border both ourselves and the EU are not going to be able to let cars and lorries just fly through without being checked at some point. I think I have mentioned before travelling from Dubrovnik to go further North in to Croatia passing through Bosnia on the coast. It is a relatively painless passage but is still a pain in the neck at busy times, and that would be a lot more painless than getting from the ROI to the UK or at least should be as Dubrovnik is a tiny enclave in Bosnia and once you get in to Bosnia then unless you hike over mountains you have to leave the country again.
 

dosxuk

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None of it sounds completely insoluble, given a little sensible compromise from both sides.

Unfortunately though, on the UK side, we have several groups with different opinions on how this should be done, and none of them are willing to compromise.
 

87 027

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It's not just customs though - there is also the movement of regulated goods to consider e.g. horticultural, plants, live animals, animal products and high risk food and feed products. Currently entry of such products into the EU/EEA is controlled and may be subject to examination at Border Inspection Posts. There is free movement within the EU/EEA although there is a tracking mechanism. However if after Brexit we are treated as a third country outside the regulated perimeter then the border question becomes more tricky for the ROI (we in principle could do as we pleased). One option might be to agree to maintain compliance with existing standards, but then this might compromise our freedom to diverge and benefit from trade deals with the rest of the world where regulations may not be so strict. It's all up in the air at the moment but suggestions that clever cameras alone can provide the answer don't really go very far to addressing these sorts of questions.
 
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pemma

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Of course. I was countering the statement that importing/exporting goods to/from the EU is "much" cheaper than transporting goods from much further afield.

Whether goods arrive from the far east at Southampton or the EU at Dover they still have to be transported to other parts of the country but, in the case of Southampton, they often have the rail option!

If you buy a German car it may well have been on a train before it reaches the UK. Maybe in the future there could be freight trains carrying cars from Munich and Frankfurt all the way to the UK.
 

furnessvale

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If you buy a German car it may well have been on a train before it reaches the UK. Maybe in the future there could be freight trains carrying cars from Munich and Frankfurt all the way to the UK.
I sincerely hope so, but the basic fact still remains that trade with the far east or USA is NOT hampered by the cost of transport involved as some would have us believe.
 

87 027

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I've heard that transportation costs from the far east are actually very cheap and is one reason why Dubai Ports World are increasing capacity at the London ports. It's also one of the arguments in support of HS2 - volumes of freight carried on the classic WCML will increase significantly so passengers services will be bumped off (to HS2) to free up more capacity for said freight. That came personally from one of the C-level officers of HS2 so it must be true :)
 

Bromley boy

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Unfortunately though, on the UK side, we have several groups with different opinions on how this should be done, and none of them are willing to compromise.

Indeed.

I should probably have said “from each side” in my previous post.
 

EM2

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44054594
Brexit: What can UK learn from other external EU borders?
As the British government continues to debate the kind of customs relationship it wants with the European Union after Brexit, one question looms large: how will it solve the Irish border problem?

One of the most difficult issues in the entire Brexit process is how to ensure that there is no return to a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic, once that border becomes the external border of the European Union, of its single market and its customs union.

That is what has been promised: no physical infrastructure or checks of any kind at the border.

An open border is a vital part of the 1998 Good Friday Agreement which underpins the Northern Ireland peace process.

So, what can we learn from other external EU borders around Europe?

One of the two customs proposals being examined by the UK government argues that new technology and trusted trader schemes can keep border checks and infrastructure to a bare minimum.

But note the name of the proposal - maximum facilitation: it facilitates trade, it does not get rid of borders altogether.

That means that if the UK leaves all the EU's economic structures there is currently no example anywhere around Europe, or further afield, that can keep the Irish border after Brexit as open as it is now. [my emphasis]

With less than a year to go until the UK is due to leave the EU, that is the acute political dilemma at the heart of the current debate.
 

nlogax

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Just seen that this has been published by the Mossavar-Rahmani Center for Business & Government at Harvard's Kennedy School. Emphasis is mine.

"This paper, the third in a series exploring the impact of Brexit on British businesses, examines the prospects for, and potential impact of, a free trade agreement between the US and the UK. The research is based primarily on interviews with senior government officials, economists and trade experts, plus a range of companies and trade associations from the UK, US, and Europe. We discuss the key potential upsides, possible risks and principal negotiating issues from both US and UK perspectives. We conclude that it is highly unlikely that a free trade deal between the US and the UK will be secured in the near term and that the likely potential benefits for British businesses are less than often suggested."

https://www.hks.harvard.edu/centers/mrcbg/publications/awp/awp89

If you don't want to read all 57 pages of the report then read the HuffPo summary instead - https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/brexit-america_uk_5afbcf89e4b0779345d40a58

"Our conversations with senior trade negotiators in the Office of the US Trade Representative reveal that, when talks finally begin, removing or sharply reducing tariffs on agricultural products will be a key US objective. But while consumers would certainly see lower prices from such a deal, opening the UK market to much cheaper US food, produced under what are perceived to be lower health and environmental standards, could destroy large parts of British farming and face intense consumer resistance."
 

pemma

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I really hope so. Even as a Remainer I think that overturning the result of the referendum would produce a constitutional nightmare. The thing is that even if you just let people go to and fro across the border both ourselves and the EU are not going to be able to let cars and lorries just fly through without being checked at some point. I think I have mentioned before travelling from Dubrovnik to go further North in to Croatia passing through Bosnia on the coast. It is a relatively painless passage but is still a pain in the neck at busy times, and that would be a lot more painless than getting from the ROI to the UK or at least should be as Dubrovnik is a tiny enclave in Bosnia and once you get in to Bosnia then unless you hike over mountains you have to leave the country again.

Not sure I agree with that. From what I understand at the time the Ottoman Empire existed the area around Dubrovnik was a little independent nation called Ragusa, which bordered with the Ottoman Empire. The Ottoman Empire lacked a sea connection so they came to an arrangement with Ragusa whereby Ragusa handed over a bit of their land to the Ottomans and part of the agreement was the Ottomans would help keep the Venetians away from Ragusa.

Present day and the little area in Bosnia & Herzegovina between former Ragusa and the rest of mainland Croatia is an area mainly inhabited by Croats. Plus all the islands and peninsulas belong to Croatia so it is possible to get from Dubrovnik to northern Croatia without entering Bosnia but only if you use a boat. Due to the mountains to the north east of Dubrovnik, Dubrovnik Airport isn't easily accessible to Bosnians* but is relatively easy to access from Montengero. Mountains and water make good natural borders, even if it looks like a strange area when drawn on a map.

* Which is why coaches going from Dubrovnik to Mostar cross international borders three times, when on a map it looks like the journey is possible with a single border crossing.
 
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Howardh

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Perhaps the solution is for us all to do a "Baarle Hertog" and declare our houses and gardens either in :wub: or out o_O of the EU, and we can have little crosses on the pavement so those Brexiters can avoid stepping into the EU. The lines could go through pubs and shops (as they do there!) so one side of the shop is under UK control and the other under EU control and the EU side is cheaper as there would be no tariffs/taxes on imported goods (and see which side Brexiters use....) :idea: <D
 

Bromley boy

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Perhaps the solution is for us all to do a "Baarle Hertog" and declare our houses and gardens either in :wub: or out o_O of the EU, and we can have little crosses on the pavement so those Brexiters can avoid stepping into the EU. The lines could go through pubs and shops (as they do there!) so one side of the shop is under UK control and the other under EU control and the EU side is cheaper as there would be no tariffs/taxes on imported goods (and see which side Brexiters use....) :idea: <D

Markings on houses.... wouldn’t be the first time that has happened in Europe would it?<D
 

fowler9

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Not sure I agree with that. From what I understand at the time the Ottoman Empire existed the area around Dubrovnik was a little independent nation called Ragusa, which bordered with the Ottoman Empire. The Ottoman Empire lacked a sea connection so they came to an arrangement with Ragusa whereby Ragusa handed over a bit of their land to the Ottomans and part of the agreement was the Ottomans would help keep the Venetians away from Ragusa.

Present day and the little area in Bosnia & Herzegovina between former Ragusa and the rest of mainland Croatia is an area mainly inhabited by Croats. Plus all the islands and peninsulas belong to Croatia so it is possible to get from Dubrovnik to northern Croatia without entering Bosnia but only if you use a boat. Due to the mountains to the north east of Dubrovnik, Dubrovnik Airport isn't easily accessible to Bosnians* but is relatively easy to access from Montengero. Mountains and water make good natural borders, even if it looks like a strange area when drawn on a map.

* Which is why coaches going from Dubrovnik to Mostar cross international borders three times, when on a map it looks like the journey is possible with a single border crossing.
Apologies, I used the wrong word. My point was the border crossing in and out of the EU where a pain in the bum.
 

Bromley boy

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But at least it would allow normal UK residents to make it clear to England First and their ilk that they weren't welcome. :)

I do hope you aren’t suggesting that all leave voters are the same as England First and their ilk?!

If you think they are you must be mixing with some strange people :p.
 

Howardh

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Looks like we might be staying in the Customs Union indefinitely? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44148027



customs proposal aimed at preventing a hard border in Ireland after Brexit has been agreed by cabinet.

Ministers signed off on the "backstop" that would see the UK match EU tariffs after 2020, if there is no deal on their preferred customs arrangements.

Brexiteers fear the proposal amounts to staying in the customs union longer.

No 10 says the UK would still be able to sign and implement trade deals, and the measure would only last for a matter of months.

The UK is due to leave the European Union in March 2019, after which a 21-month transition period is due to begin, which aims to smooth the way to a post-Brexit relationship between the UK and EU.

Government sources have told the BBC's political editor, Laura Kuenssberg, that the newly-agreed proposal was very unlikely to be needed - as they are confident a customs deal that avoids bringing back a hard border can be agreed with the EU.

Earlier, Irish PM Leo Varadkar said ensuring there was no hard border between the Irish Republic and Northern Ireland was "an absolute red line" for the Irish government.

"We need that [backstop] to be part of the withdrawal agreement, and if it's not, then there will be no withdrawal agreement and no transition period."

After meeting Mrs May at an EU summit in Bulgaria on Thursday, he said he expected the UK to table new proposals within weeks but warned: "Resolving the issue of avoiding a hard border requires more than customs."

Mrs May said they had held a "very constructive" meeting, adding: "The commission published a fallback option which was not acceptable to us and we will be bringing forward our own proposal for that fallback option in due course."

She also met European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker, and European Council President Donald Tusk.

The government's new proposal is expected to be discussed formally in Brussels next week.

_101607584_varadkarmay.jpg
Im
age copyrightEPA/PA
Image captionLeo Varadkar will meet Theresa May at an EU summit in Bulgaria on Thursday
Ministers are yet to settle on what permanent model they want to see replace the customs union when the UK leaves the EU.

They are under pressure to decide on their policy before a key EU summit in June.

Labour Shadow Brexit Secretary Sir Keir Starmer called the situation "farcical", saying: "The government is fighting over two options, neither of which are going to work, neither of which are acceptable to the EU, and neither of which would have the support of the majority in parliament."

He added: "We need certainty and the right approach is to stay in a customs union with the EU as the long-term objective."

What are the custom options after Brexit?
The UK is due to officially leave the EU on 29 March 2019, with a transition period until the end of 2020 intended to smooth the way to the permanent new relationship.

But the two sides have just five months to get an agreement on post-Brexit trade, so it can be ratified before Britain leaves in March next year.

Key to this is how the UK and EU's customs systems will work together in years to come.

Currently, the UK is in the EU's customs union, which means member states all charge the same import duties to countries outside the EU.

It allows member states to trade freely with each other, without burdensome customs checks at borders, but it limits their freedom to strike their own trade deals.

The UK government has said it wants to leave the EU customs union in order to strike its own trade deals with other countries, promising trade will still be as "frictionless" as possible.

But ministers do not agree on how to replace it.

Brexiteers are against Mrs May's preferred option of a "customs partnership", under which the UK would collect tariffs set by the EU customs union on goods coming into the UK on behalf of the EU.

The alternative proposal would rely on technology and advance checks to minimise, rather than remove, customs checks. The EU has expressed doubts about whether either option would work.

On Wednesday, senior ministers acknowledged there has been "serious criticism" of both proposed models.

V
 

Howardh

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How about the EU comes up with a “workable” solution, since it’s an EU border as much as a U.K. border?!
Not really, it's not the EU that have decided to leave the EU, and it's not even the Republic either. They can simply revert to WTO rules regarding that border, whatever those rules are. If we want to maintain an open border, we have to compromise and/or find a solution, except we have found one....stay in the customs union....for goods...and stay in the single market for people.
 

Senex

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Did anyone else hear Ian Duncan-Smith on the Today programme about 8:40 this morning? His attitude came over (to me) as one of considerable arrogance with his claims that it was up to Ireland and the EU to get on with making progress and his unwillingness to acknowledge that there are any problems on the British (i.e. Tory party) side. Why do the arch-Brexiteers amongst the Tories seem to feel that Britain will be doing the EU a great favour by negotiating any sort of deal at all with it?
 

pemma

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It should also be noted as an EU member concerned about our own borders, we wanted the enhanced EU border checks introduced last year which were partly in response to the heightened terrorist threats. It would be hypocritical for us to want the EU to weaken its' borders for our benefit post-Brexit.
 

nlogax

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Why do the arch-Brexiteers amongst the Tories seem to feel that Britain will be doing the EU a great favour by negotiating any sort of deal at all with it?

Because they lack any understanding or concept of reality?
Because they're on their own internal Tory leadership power trips?*
Because they have egos measurable in hectares?




*ok, no-one's going to put IDS back in that position, we all saw how that went
 

AM9

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I do hope you aren’t suggesting that all leave voters are the same as England First and their ilk?!

If you think they are you must be mixing with some strange people :p.

You will of course have seen the emoticon there? However, for some leave voters, England First's agenda is just a logical progression from that of UKIP so 'if the cap fits they can wear it' (so to speak).
 

mmh

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You will of course have seen the emoticon there? However, for some leave voters, England First's agenda is just a logical progression from that of UKIP so 'if the cap fits they can wear it' (so to speak).

Dear me, that cliche, it's rabid racists and far right-wingers who voted leave.

In fact, many of the safest Labour areas in the country voted leave, for example Hull, Doncaster, the South Wales valleys, Lancashire.

The ballot didn't ask what your political viewpoint was, so any supposition that Labour == Remain, Tory == Leave etc is just guesswork or based on dubious opinion polls (why anyone takes much notice of them any more is a mystery)

There's one thing you can confidently guess - yes, UKIP voters probably did vote Leave, and one thing you can tell from the results by region - the vast majority of the country by areas voted Leave other than a handful of mostly city areas (and Scotland, who in 2016 were still completely SNP brainwashed), and the large electorates in some of those resulted in a result closer than it otherwise would have been.
 
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