Virgin Trains East Coast franchise to end 24 June 2018 and is temporarily re-nationalised

[4-SUB 4732]

Sham. Bolic.

 

[Clansman]

Not surprised that the franchise has crumbled again, although I am surprised that DfT are reinstating LNER and not GNER given the latter is an already respected brand amongst passengers, and has connotations to grandure and speed, which the former doesn't in my opinion. Plenty other things to worry about I guess.

 

[richa2002]

I suspect all that will happen is the Virgin logos will be replaced by LNER ones and the same livery kept as far as possible. Why change it if it isn't required? Livery is hardly the imperative at the moment.

The HST power car, 91 & DVT livery designs are trademarked so an agreement would have to be done with Virgin for their continued use. Seems unlikely...

 

[Tetchytyke]

There is no chance of that happening. I can't ever recall ever hearing of such a thing happening in the past at any franchise change or any other change of operator. As is being made very clear on multiple channels tickets booked for travel after the change remain valid.

Indeed when NXEC lost the franchise they pumped trains full of £9 sale tickets well into the future. It was their little goodbye gift.

But why bother with a new livery for a couple of years.

I don't disagree, but I'm questioning why they're shrugging and keeping the Virgin red rather than making VTEC pay for it to be re-branded back into a generic livery. It's what their franchise deal said.

 

[Western Lord]

As much as I like the GNER connotation I think the name is poorly chosen. However unintentionally, it suggests a London orientation which is very unhelpful to a national line.

They should have gone for Edinburgh and South Eastern to keep the Scots happy.

 

[Ianno87]

So we now have LNER, GWR and Southern as brands....

Shame we recently waved bye bye to London Midland...

 

[Ianno87]

Not surprised that the franchise has crumbled again, although I am surprised that DfT are reinstating LNER and not GNER given the latter is an already respected brand amongst passengers, and has connotations to grandure and speed, which the former doesn't in my opinion. Plenty other things to worry about I guess.

I undestand the rights to the GNER brand are held by Alliance Rail, who rented it out to the Sea Containers operation.

 

[jyte]

FYI the LNER website was registered on the 29th March 2018....this has been in the works quite a while...

 

[Deepgreen]

Not surprised that the franchise has crumbled again, although I am surprised that DfT are reinstating LNER and not GNER given the latter is an already respected brand amongst passengers, and has connotations to grandure and speed, which the former doesn't in my opinion. Plenty other things to worry about I guess.

LNER doesn't have connotations of grandeur and speed? Really? - 'Mallard', 'Flying Scotsman', etc., don't carry any weight?

It's true, though, that the actual name is of minor importance compared the issue of crumbling TOCs needing to be terminated and replaced by publicly-owned bodies. How many more will follow suit quite soon I wonder - GWR, GTR, etc? How soon, too, will it be realised that the present TOC model is fatally flawed and a better, integrated regime is provided? Of course, the trouble is that the huge and invaluable knowledge/experience base of the national railway has been horribly eroded by the replacement with bus operators and faceless business people who now try to run the railways. BR certainly had its failings, but...

 

[RDWRER]

So we now have LNER, GWR and Southern as brands....

Shame we recently waved bye bye to London Midland...

We also have London Northwestern. Good to see DfT are serious about using brands that will outlive the operator.

 

[transmanche]

It's in the franchise agreement that they return the trains in a generic livery.

Not quite.

It's in the franchise agreement that VTEC have to remove or cover any registered trademarks from all assets [1] or pay the successor franchise the cost of doing so. If the DfT thinks the branding is not "so distinctive or otherwise such that a Successor Operator could not reasonably be asked to use the relevant assets to which the Marks are applied", then it can stay.

So in that case, VTEC will need to remove (or pay for the removal) of; e.g. the Virgin Trains logo on First Class seats. But (looking at the LNER holding website) I expect the train livery will remain as-is - albeit with the removal of the Virgin Trains logo and replacement with an LNER logo.

[1] There is also the provision for the transfer of licenses.

Source: Intercity East Coast Franchise Agreement - Schedule 14.2

 

[Bletchleyite]

On a slightly different note am I right in thinking that despite what the press is saying the franchise will not be in direct state control like with East Coast but rather in the hands of the Operator of Last Resort which is a consortium of Arup Group, Ernst & Young and SNC-Lavalin Rail & Transit.

Doesn't appear so:

Q. As LNER is a new company, how do we know that we will get paid?

LNER is a new legal entity and is wholly owned by DfT OLR Holdings Limited, which itself is wholly owned by the Secretary of State for Transport. The Department for Transport will provide funding to ensure that LNER can continue to operate train services on the East Coast Main Line.

 

[richa2002]

Not quite.

It's in the franchise agreement that VTEC have to remove or cover any registered trademarks from all assets [1] or pay the successor franchise the cost of doing so. If the DfT thinks the branding is not "so distinctive or otherwise such that a Successor Operator could not reasonably be asked to use the relevant assets to which the Marks are applied", then it can stay.

So in that case, VTEC will need to remove (or pay for the removal) of; e.g. the Virgin Trains logo on First Class seats. But (looking at the LNER holding website) I expect the train livery will remain as-is - albeit with the removal of the Virgin Trains logo and replacement with an LNER logo.

[1] There is also the provision for the transfer of licenses.

Source: Intercity East Coast Franchise Agreement - Schedule 14.2

As I mentioned above, it's more than just the logo which is trademarked (click Designs):
https://euipo.europa.eu/eSearch/#details/owners/348245

 

[Bletchleyite]

So we now have LNER, GWR and Southern as brands....

Shame we recently waved bye bye to London Midland...

We did gain LNWR though.

 

[infobleep]

East Coast will be terminated 24th June, will become DOR run LNER from that date, essentially bringing forward the previously announced partnership from 2020 to 2018 with the merging of track and rail management phased in. Mayor of West Midlands will be a board advisor. Stagecoach and Virgin will keep their passports after independent review.

Great Northern being transferred to London Overground after end of TSGN being discussed with London mayor as well as moving Kings Cross services out of Great Northern.

Why would they want London Overground to run services when the mayor is a Labour politician.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Why would they want London Overground to run services when the mayor is a Labour politician.

Because maybe there are being grown ups about it.

Anyway there is a different thread for this.

 

[infobleep]

Because maybe there are being grown ups about it.

Anyway there is a different thread for this.

As I have just seen. I was playing reading catch up and I tend to reply as I read, as I can't remember it all otherwise

I've now edited my comment.

 

[transmanche]

It's in the franchise agreement that VTEC have to remove or cover any registered trademarks from all assets [1] or pay the successor franchise the cost of doing so. If the DfT thinks the branding is not "so distinctive or otherwise such that a Successor Operator could not reasonably be asked to use the relevant assets to which the Marks are applied", then it can stay.

[1] There is also the provision for the transfer of licenses.

As I mentioned above, it's more than just the logo which is trademarked (click Designs):
https://euipo.europa.eu/eSearch/#details/owners/348245

Indeed, but as I mentioned, if the DfT is happy with the existing branding they won't require VTEC to remove it (or to pay for its removal). All they require is that VTEC arranges for an irrevocable licence allowing their successor(s) to use the trademarks.

Therefore it's no surprise that it seems that LNER is going to use red as their brand colour - a shade of red that's suspiciously like the shade that Virgin uses!

 

[urpert]

Source: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...ndon-to-yorkshire-the-north-east-and-scotland

Why is it a picture of a 395, etc etc

 

[Mikey C]

Quite extraordinary how turbulent the East Coast franchise has been, when you consider the longevity and financial success of the Great Western or West Coast franchises for the operators.

 

[3141]

Quite extraordinary how turbulent the East Coast franchise has been, when you consider the longevity and financial success of the Great Western or West Coast franchises for the operators.

West Coast has lasted because the DfT made a mess of the award to First in 2012. Since then it's been a series of direct awards. It's interesting to speculate what might have happened to First if they had been able to go ahead with it; it was widely thought that they'd overbid.

GWR (which was then First GW) should have been relet in 2013 after First decided not to take up the extension that the franchise agreement provided for, and has also been a series of direct awards.

 

[swt_passenger]

Yes please!

New thread created for the LNER Silver Jubilee service from May 1936:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/lner-silver-jubilee-brochure-from-monday-4th-may-1936.164503/

 

[Kite159]

So is the first day of LNER going to be Monday the 25th June with VTEC ending on the 24th June, or will it be like other franchise changes with VTEC's last day being the 23rd June with LNER taking over as of the 24th June?

Anyhow no doubt history will repeat and all those planned enhancements (additional Harrogate services etc) will be quietly dropped

 

[Requeststop]

How many times is it now that the Tories have made a b*lls up of their own franchise system? Do they take the blame? Of course not. Pass it onto the civil servants as usual.

 

[Bantamzen]

So is the first day of LNER going to be Monday the 25th June with VTEC ending on the 24th June, or will it be like other franchise changes with VTEC's last day being the 23rd June with LNER taking over as of the 24th June?

Anyhow no doubt history will repeat and all those planned enhancements (additional Harrogate services etc) will be quietly dropped

Grayling has been asked this in the Houses and he says not. Given that some of the areas due for VTEC, erm LNER improvements are marginals or deep blue I think there might be substance in that!

 

[Allwinter_Kit]

Forgive me for asking but:

East Coast will be terminated 24th June, will become DOR run LNER from that date, essentially bringing forward the previously announced partnership from 2020 to 2018 with the merging of track and rail management phased in. Mayor of West Midlands will be a board advisor.

Why is the Birmingham Mayor on the East Coast board of advisors? I mean, i am happy to be corrected but my conception of the WM and the ECML don't particularly overlap....

 

[HH]

Basically most of the large InterCity services have been basket cases (to use Mr Cash's favourite words). And all for basically the same reason. DfT buys largely on price and there's always bidders who let the desire to run these franchises triumph over common sense, seemingly driven by ego. I would have hoped that by now DfT took a sensible attitude on undeliverable bids, which they have done on other franchises, but it seems if there's enough zeroes, they want to be heroes.

 

[Taunton]

As much as I like the GNER connotation I think the name is poorly chosen. However unintentionally, it suggests a London orientation which is very unhelpful to a national line.

So, a good generic national name is needed.

What about "Inter-City"?

DfT buys largely on price and there's always bidders who let the desire to run these franchises triumph over common sense, seemingly driven by ego. I would have hoped that by now DfT took a sensible attitude on undeliverable bids, which they have done on other franchises, but it seems if there's enough zeroes, they want to be heroes.

Actually, the whole charade just makes the DfT look good to the Treasury for a few years, by which time the DfT seniors will have moved on. And the operators, who always have these get-out clauses, will only tender on the assumption that they will be the operator until it becomes significantly not worthwhile to continue. This is why the premium payments always ramp up well into the future.

The DfT could structure it all more sensibly, but then the overall premium figure would be less, and that's all the Treasury look at.

 

[urbophile]

The left wing media

What left wing media???!!

 

[WatcherZero]

Reading through the economic assessment of options by the independent review that was provided as evidence for Grayling to make his decision.
They predicted that:
Assigning an OLR will have £8m higher costs than keeping the existing management
VTEC could expect to be paid £21m for a franchise management contract
The loss of the VTEC brand and creation of LNER brand is expected to lower revenues by £32m
So the Government would have been £19m better off if they gave VTEC a management contract rather than appointing the Operator of Last Resort.

In essence they went with the nationalisation option not because it was the best financially but because they wanted to send a message to bidders that they will lose out if they overbid.
The report does also hint at the revenue shortfall not being entirely VTEC fault, with less rail demand nationally than the government told them to expect as well as lower fuel prices meaning more competition by cars and coaches on the East Coast route than the government demand model expected.