Wales & Borders Franchise Consultation

[Rhydgaled]

I would say any new long distance stock would be expected to be put on the Cardiff to Holyhead trains by TfW/WG and any sensible operator would want it on its actual premier route which is Manchester to Swansea.

Manchester-Swansea (or perhaps Manchester-Holyhead if the Llandudno stoppers are sent to Liverpool instead and the Manchesters speeded up) is certainly the main 'premier' route, although I think Holyhead-Cardiff (limited to 3 per day each way) should also be an intercity-type service.

there's need for more stock to strengthen services between Shrewsbury and Birmingham International. The 0832 departure from Shrewsbury and the 1609 & 1709 from International need to be six car formations and all too often ATW turn up in the West Midlands with just a 2 car unit because of shortages in the franchise.

That's why I wouldn't be all that surprised if new stock ends up on the Cambrian; if the new operator feels the 24 class 158s aren't quite enough for the Cambrian (which if Birmingham-N. Wales cannot be re-routed via Stafford is a possibility) then the easiest solution could well be a new-build ETCS fleet and cascade of the 158s to other areas of the franchise.

 

[mde]

Carwyn is setting the scene trying to dampen expectation and shift the blame.

Early 2020s… wonder if they've remembered they'll need a derogation for the Pacers? World class indeed.

Although, to be fair, compared to the PRM facilities on an ATW Class 158, a Pacer could be seen as an upgrade…

 

[Dai Corner]

The official transcript of today’s FMQs doesn’t appear to have been published online yet, but the Welsh Conservatives are saying this

https://www.welshconservatives.com/...uses-rule-out-delays-start-new-rail-franchise

There are growing signs that the launch of the new rail franchise in Wales could be heading for significant delays.

During First Minister’s Questions on Tuesday, Carwyn Jones refused to guarantee that the handover from Arriva to the new operator would still take place in October, despite repeated questions from Leader of the Welsh Conservatives – Andrew RT Davies.

Back in February the Cabinet Secretary confirmed that the Franchise would be awarded in May 2018 – which the First Minister appeared to confirm was still on course.

However, when asked about the start of the new franchise (which is currently expected to take place in October) the First Minister refused to make a clear commitment to that rollout date.

The failure to provide firm guarantees over the timeline has led to concerns that the new franchise could face serious delays, and comes just 24 hours after the First Minister sought to downplay passenger expectations over the extent of improvements that the new franchise is likely to deliver.

Speaking outside the chamber, Leader of the Welsh Conservatives – Andrew RT Davies – said:

“The First Minister had several opportunities to confirm that the handover of the rail franchise is still on course to take place in October.

“His failure to do so is significant, and calls into question the current status of the procurement process – just 24 hours after he talked downplayed talk of significant improvements to services in Wales.

“There are growing concerns that the start of the new franchise is facing a significant delay, and Carwyn’s ambiguous response to straightforward questions will hardly have allayed those concerns.

“This is half the world away from the brave new era in rail travel that we were sold when the process was in its infancy.

“Passengers are justifiably expecting the franchise to put right the shortcomings in passenger services that have afflicted rail users in Wales for years, and there will be serious concerns if the handover to a new franchise is delayed and improvements placed on hold.”

 

[gareth950]

The official transcript of today’s FMQs doesn’t appear to have been published online yet, but the Welsh Conservatives are saying this

https://www.welshconservatives.com/...uses-rule-out-delays-start-new-rail-franchise

When Andrew RT Davies asks Jones to confirm if the announcement of the 'preferred bidder' is to still be made 'in May' with the franchise starting in October, bearing in mind that if the announcement is to be made in the Senedd so the cabinet secretary can be questioned after the announcement, it must be made next week before the half term recess, Jones responds:

"I can confirm that there is no delay to the process and we want to make the announcement as soon as possible."

RT asks him again to be specific on the timescale, and after a brief whisper from Skates sat next to him, again Jones doesn't answer.

I wouldn't be surprised if the announcement is made in a press release by TfW after the May bank holiday, so Skates and Jones get to avoid any awkward Qs in the Senedd overshadowing their world class-ness.

Available to watch on IPlayer approx 12 minutes in.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

New large franchise contracts (preferred bidder) are usually announced at 7am before the stock market opens, and then clarified later in parliament.
Details then dribble out as the DfT/WG allow, and there will be a 10-day standstill to allow for a possible legal challenge.
It could be a while before all the facts are clear and contracts signed, and longer still before the franchise agreement is published.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I wonder if the Welsh Government wishes it could have made the announcement today

 

[gareth950]

I wonder if the Welsh Government wishes it could have made the announcement today

"Rail franchise taken into public ownership by the Conservatives in England, whilst a 15 year franchise is awarded to a private operator by a Labour govt in Wales".
Is that the right way around?

 

[pemma]

Was just about to make the same point

Nothing at all wrong with renaming places with English names, in Welsh. Wrexham is a perfect example of why you should do that, since you can't actually write the English form in Welsh (there not being an "X" in the Welsh alphabet). What ya meant to do, write "dw i'n bwy yn wre ham"?

Wrexham originated from Wristlesham, which was an English settlement in 1161 which got called Wrechcessham by the Welsh around 50 years later. Perhaps the Welsh shouldn't have messed with the name, after all there's no x in Wristlesham

Do Welsh speakers buy special computer keyboards without the x, in the same way the Germans have different keyboards to us?

There aren't accented characters in English, but when writing a German or French place name that has an accent and no English version it is correct to write the accent anyway (unless, in German, you prefer to use the alternative of ae/oe/ue/ss). I've always taken the view that you shouldn't translate a name.

I get why places like Munich have a different spelling in the English language, considering otherwise we'd end up writing Munchen, which is wrong, although the English spellings could still be closer to the German spellings. Although, ATW not only translating Manchester Piccadilly in to Welsh but putting it on the external displays on the trains, it's one thing using a translation in a Welsh language timetable it's another thing putting the destination in Welsh when it makes it more difficult for most passengers, especially as there are quite a number of English stations ATW call at between the Welsh boundary

 

[Gwenllian2001]

The winner is to be announced next week. So sharpen your English or Welsh pencils to tell us what is wrong with Skates ''world class' plans.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Fans of DMU Cascades may be interested in this to see what might be happening.

 

[sw1ller]

I take it there’s no actual franchise news lately then!! The hell’s happened to this thread?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm not clear what point that spreadsheet is supposed to make? Might be clearer if it contained the class numbers?

 

[sprinterguy]

I'm not clear what point that spreadsheet is supposed to make? Might be clearer if it contained the class numbers?

The rows in the table would appear to tally up as:

4 Pacer
5 Class 150
6 Class 153
7 Class 156
8 Class 158
9 Class 165
10 Class 168
11 Class 170
12 Class 172
13 Class 175
14 Class 185

Though I'm not sure if the section is yellow is attempting to do anything more than list the number of vehicles currently leased by the respective franchises.

 

[gareth950]

Hopefully ATW's 142s will be sent for scrap next year, but I'll be amazed if GWR's 143s and Northern's 144s aren't sent to South Wales.
Who knows what will happen with 153s but Wales is desperate for any and all DMUs available, PRM compliant or not.

 

[pemma]

Hopefully ATW's 142s will be sent for scrap next year, but I'll be amazed if GWR's 143s and Northern's 144s aren't sent to South Wales.
Who knows what will happen with 153s but Wales is desperate for any and all DMUs available, PRM compliant or not.

Even if W&B get something to replace Pacers I think the 'ePacer' would be ideal for the Cardiff Bay shuttle and using it could mean an extra unit for something else.

Maybe W&B could secure some 156s and use the 153s as centre cars, if 3 car regional 75mph sets would be useful for W&B?

 

[Gareth Marston]

The rows in the table would appear to tally up as:

4 Pacer
5 Class 150
6 Class 153
7 Class 156
8 Class 158
9 Class 165
10 Class 168
11 Class 170
12 Class 172
13 Class 175
14 Class 185

Though I'm not sure if the section is yellow is attempting to do anything more than list the number of vehicles currently leased by the respective franchises.

Sorry that column didn't appear.

Blue is what we know is coming off lease and yellow is the franchises coming to their ends. The big point to note is that there are 191 DMU's carriages (excluding Pacer) coming off lease in the next 18 months. whilst Northern has some call on 170 equivalents (someone else might know exactly how many) there should stil be a substantial number that could be cascaded into Wales and Borders. It's almost inconceivable that the franchise will not be receiving some of the 156/170/185 units.

 

[HH]

Cha-ching. I expect to see that too. 170s are a bolted-on certainty IMO.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Cha-ching. I expect to see that too. 170s are a bolted-on certainty IMO.

We had Central Trains ones brand new down the Cambrian for about 15 months before Wales and Borders was created.

Rhydagaled well not doubt vent about there door positioning but they are probably better suited to Llandudno to Manchester than the 175's. And the Cambrian Coast (etcs permitting).


In fact somewhere back in this tread we unearthed DFT specifying one third/ two third door arrangements for services running through the through platforms at Piccadily. 175's moving off Manchester to Llandudno is another jigsaw piece we have. I think TPE new stock is deemed ok as each set is 5 cars giving 10 doors.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Walesonline running a Sion Berry "straight from my mate at the bay" piece.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/wales-borders-rail-franchise-metro-14670372

The winner of the biggest ever contract awarded in Wales to run the trains and deliver the next phase of the Metro with electrification of the core Valley Lines will be revealed next week.

After a complex bid process, which started with a competitive dialogue stage nearly two years ago, the Welsh Government is expected to confirm early on Wednesday - ahead of the opening of the London Stock Market - the company that will run the next Wales and Borders rail franchise and deliver the next phase of the Metro project in south east Wales.

 

[gareth950]

I love this bit:

"The procurement process has been overseen by the Welsh Government's at arm's length transport body Transport for Wales."

Never mind that the Chief Executive of TfW, James Price, is on secondment from Welsh Govt and reports to his own deputy.

 

[krus_aragon]

The winner is to be announced next week. So sharpen your English or Welsh pencils to tell us what is wrong with Skates ''world class' plans.

Shurely you mean crayons? :P

 

[squizzler]

Shurely you mean crayons? :P

Mont Blanc pen? Nothing less than world class writing implements will do.

 

[krus_aragon]

Mont Blanc pen? Nothing less than world class writing implements will do.

Actually, there is a middle ground:

Crayola-branded executive crayon pen in presentation box

Sadly it's currently out of stock.

 

[Del1977]

Another interesting snippet in that Wales Online piece citing Wednesday as the day that the winner of the franchise will be announced is that we'll likely get no details of what they've agreed to do for seven days, in case the losing bidder takes legal action to appeal against the decision.

Of course, the losing bidder may just accept that they have lost, but I'm guessing that we'll see very little next Wednesday.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Another interesting snippet in that Wales Online piece citing Wednesday as the day that the winner of the franchise will be announced is that we'll likely get no details of what they've agreed to do for seven days, in case the losing bidder takes legal action to appeal against the decision.

Of course, the losing bidder may just accept that they have lost, but I'm guessing that we'll see very little next Wednesday.

apart from nauseating spin telling us how wonderful and world class it will be - will have sick bag handy.

 

[Del1977]

apart from nauseating spin telling us how wonderful and world class it will be - will have sick bag handy.

I'm up early, so will hear the announcement for the stock market. It's possible that there may be some details published by the winning bidder to inform the markets, but I'm not expecting maps, plans and service frequencies.

We've disagreed over these two threads, Gareth, about the best solution for the South Wales Metro, but where I have agreed with you 100% is on the handling, execution and secrecy of this tender, which has been reprehensible.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I'm up early, so will hear the announcement for the stock market. It's possible that there may be some details published by the winning bidder to inform the markets, but I'm not expecting maps, plans and service frequencies.

We've disagreed over these two threads, Gareth, about the best solution for the South Wales Metro, but where I have agreed with you 100% is on the handling, execution and secrecy of this tender, which has been reprehensible.

and to think the design of the Senedd building was suppose to represent the openness of devolved Government.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Found this is Traction and Rolling Stock thread big up to 47802 for posting.

A video on the new Flirts from the Railway Gazette.

The GA guy seems very enthusiastic about the quality of the new flirts, the Bi-modes will be like entering the Starship Enterprise compared to a 153 or a 156.

There's also a comment on WNXX from Mr Miles about his interview with the Stadler Guy, they do seem an impressive company.

Near the end GA state that the first Flirts in service will be the bi modes for Rural routes starting in May 19. Therefore in theory the GA 156/170 fleet is available for cascade by end of 2019???

9 x 2 156's, 8 x 3 170's and 4 x 2 170's.

Is this the get out for PRM and Pacer cull?

 

[Domh245]

Therefore in theory the GA 156/170 fleet is available for cascade by end of 2019???

That is the plan, as per the franchise agreement the off-lease dates are:

156: 30/12/2019
170: 01/10/2019, although one 2 car unit will remain on lease until 31/01/2020

 

[Gareth Marston]

That is the plan, as per the franchise agreement the off-lease dates are:

156: 30/12/2019
170: 01/10/2019, although one 2 car unit will remain on lease until 31/01/2020

thanks for confirming that Domh245 - then its clear that W&B must have access (Even if temporarily) to the off lease GA fleet to achieve PRM Compliance with no toilets locked.

Next question can 36 x 2 150's cover all the diagrams in ATW Table 5 (via Queen St). The rest of South Wales is fine for 23m units plus we know that 153's Blaenau and Wrexham Bidston so 156's should be OK.