Do you think Southeastern should lose their franchise?

[greenhithe]

What is with southeastern, every week i get some kind of delay, cancellation or have to stand for over a hour. Tonight the 17:26 to Gravesend was delayed due staff issues gets terminated at dartford and us poor customers get turfed off and have to wait for the next one due to the train being 20 mins late. si i end up being delayed for 40 mins. i complain but NOTHING changes and gets done.

 

[ComUtoR]

You realize of course that the franchise is about to change.

 

[theironroad]

Everyone seems to be demanding that franchises change at the moment., Northern, southern,swr, tl, Scotrail .

Just seems to be a way of venting frustration as doesn't really solve anything.

 

[aiden_g1]

I'd expect to see the name 'South Eastern Railway' under the new franchise operator

 

[theironroad]

I'd expect to see the name 'South Eastern Railway' under the new franchise operator

Maybe along with:

The Southern Railway
The Grand Bedford and Brighton Railway

 

[ComUtoR]

The way everything links up together. Maybe it should be called 'Kent Connex'

 

[700007]

Southeastern is easily my least favourite TOC by quite a long shot so I would be incredibly happy to see the back of them - which hopefully does happen this year with the new franchise - it's just abysmal and in all the times I have traveled with them, something always goes wrong bar when I use HS1.

 

[NorthKent1989]

I'd like two outcomes, either:

1: Stagecoach take over the franchise, they did a good job with SWT
Plus the trains were always clean.

2: Unlikely I know but I would like to see the "Chatham" side separate from the rest of South Eastern, I have always said that its ridiculous that a privatised rail company has such a monopoly over quite a large region, not to mention duplicate stations at Canterbury, Maidstone, Bromley and Sydenham, however this is a pie in the sky idea.

 

[Antman]

At very least the high speed services should be separated from the rest of Southeastern.

 

[700007]

At very least the high speed services should be separated from the rest of Southeastern.

I have said this before as well. I personally believe High Speed 1 services should be a standalone franchise to rival against the mainline Southeastern services.

 

[telstarbox]

Why though? That wouldn't be passenger friendly on the Medway Towns corridor for example.

 

[NorthKent1989]

I have said this before as well. I personally believe High Speed 1 services should be a standalone franchise to rival against the mainline Southeastern services.

Yep! Why HS1 is still treated as SE I'll never know its ludicrous, perhaps if this happened Kent's classic mainline may get decent premier fast services again.

 

[RichJF]

Yep! Why HS1 is still treated as SE I'll never know its ludicrous, perhaps if this happened Kent's classic mainline may get decent premier fast services again.

The ideal scenario would be HS1 as a seperate operator & SE given the path for 4tph (2 fast, 2 stopping) on the conventional network (a-la pre HS1).
Dover, Folkestone, Ashford, Tonbridge, London Bridge, Waterloo East, Charing X (with the Ramsgate joining up at Ashford).
Dover, Canterbury East, Faversham, Gillingham, Rochester, Bromley, Victoria.
Something like that.

 

[Bromley boy]

Yep! Why HS1 is still treated as SE I'll never know its ludicrous, perhaps if this happened Kent's classic mainline may get decent premier fast services again.

This has been discussed before.

IIRC the reason this won’t happen is because a “premier fast” service on the classic lines (SEML) would now represent a waste of capacity.

Passengers travelling from Ashford, Canterbury and the Kent Coast have the option to take HS1 to St Pancras. This makes sense as HS1 is relatively under utilised. The paths previously used for classic line “express” services are better used for services stopping at Pluckley, Headcorn, etc.

 

[LeeLivery]

I'd like two outcomes, either:

1: Stagecoach take over the franchise, they did a good job with SWT
Plus the trains were always clean.

2: Unlikely I know but I would like to see the "Chatham" side separate from the rest of South Eastern, I have always said that its ridiculous that a privatised rail company has such a monopoly over quite a large region, not to mention duplicate stations at Canterbury, Maidstone, Bromley and Sydenham, however this is a pie in the sky idea.

As someone who lives in the Sydenham area, I wouldn't say they have a monopoly, I've got Southeastern, Southern and LO to chose from. Their franchise area isn't that large, it basically covers one county and SE London - far smaller than SWR. I really don't see the need to split anything.

Southeastern really isn't the worst, but it's time for them to go. I'd be glad to see the back of the whole franchise system and have one Southern Region operation back, but that's a different debate. As for wanting Stagecoach, if it's managed like SWT then great, if it's managed like EMT and VTEC then I'd rather not. SWT was very good at refurbs, the Networkers could finally get the attention they need.

 

[otomous]

I have said this before as well. I personally believe High Speed 1 services should be a standalone franchise to rival against the mainline Southeastern services.

I don’t know, but I would guess that just aren’t the paths to run a full service on both types of service.

 

[blakey1152]

What is with southeastern, every week i get some kind of delay, cancellation or have to stand for over a hour. Tonight the 17:26 to Gravesend was delayed due staff issues gets terminated at dartford and us poor customers get turfed off and have to wait for the next one due to the train being 20 mins late. si i end up being delayed for 40 mins. i complain but NOTHING changes and gets done.

I do totally feel your frustration. I used to travel from Slade Green to Sidcup to work when I was on nights and the reverse journey when I was on days to go home but even though its a short journey it was becoming more and more stressful as it was delayed virtually on a daily basis so last October I gave up buying a Travelcard for zones 5 and 6 and bought a bus pass instead. It might take a few minutes longer but I'm not constantly worried that Southeastern will cancel the train or it be delayed again because the fast Gillingham service is late.

To this day I've never got a sensible response as to why Southeastern prioritise its semi-fast services over the metro services but maybe this may change now Thameslink is on the horizon!

 

[ComUtoR]

To this day I've never got a sensible response as to why Southeastern prioritise its semi-fast services over the metro services but maybe this may change now Thameslink is on the horizon!

Sticking a stopper in front of a fast or semi fast is stupid beyond belief and when it happens.. "!£"$£"%$%£$ the Signaler" You stick the semi in front because it will gain headway and clear junctions and stations so that it doesn't impact the stopper. Sticking a metro in front just means the semi will sit outside stations and wait. As its not stopping you are creating a delay for no reason and you have a train that creeps through a station with passengers watching it go by.

You also create a situation where passenger loading becomes an issue. If the semi goes in front, then they tend to load more passengers than usual as those who would board the stopper now board a different train. They are semi for a reason and can also be heavily loaded so the additional load creates a delay. You can then have a stopper hit a platform that's half empty and on a restrictive aspect due to the semi in front.

I get just as pissed off when a stopper gets put in front of me when I'm ECS. I could be out the way and a few sections ahead before the stopper has carried out its platform duties. But, passengers are prioritized over ECS services even though they are trying to get to a location where they will enter passenger service.

I do not envy the job my colleagues in the box have when they need to regulate services.

 

[Medicy]

As a note, the new Southeastern franchise will be required to operate 4tph off-peak on the South Eastern Main Line between Ashford International and London Charing Cross from 2022, with a minimum of two slow services. The other two are required to call at Ashford International, Paddock Wood (for connections to the Medway Valley line), Tonbridge, Sevenoaks, London Bridge, London Waterloo East and London Charing Cross, but the bidders can choose to stop at additional stations. The bidders can also run all the services from east of Ashford (e.g. from Ramsgate/Dover Priory)

 

[blakey1152]

Sticking a stopper in front of a fast or semi fast is stupid beyond belief and when it happens.. "!£"$£"%$%£$ the Signaler" You stick the semi in front because it will gain headway and clear junctions and stations so that it doesn't impact the stopper. Sticking a metro in front just means the semi will sit outside stations and wait. As its not stopping you are creating a delay for no reason and you have a train that creeps through a station with passengers watching it go by.

You also create a situation where passenger loading becomes an issue. If the semi goes in front, then they tend to load more passengers than usual as those who would board the stopper now board a different train. They are semi for a reason and can also be heavily loaded so the additional load creates a delay. You can then have a stopper hit a platform that's half empty and on a restrictive aspect due to the semi in front.

I get just as pissed off when a stopper gets put in front of me when I'm ECS. I could be out the way and a few sections ahead before the stopper has carried out its platform duties. But, passengers are prioritized over ECS services even though they are trying to get to a location where they will enter passenger service.

I do not envy the job my colleagues in the box have when they need to regulate services.

I can understand totally if the semi fast is a couple of minutes late but what frequently happens is the metro will be held outside Charlton for 10 to 15 minutes just to wait for the semi fast to go through and because of this delay to the metro service southeastern will then run the metro service fast from Crayford back to London Bridge which inconveniences intending passengers. To me that scenario makes no sense as now your are making two trains late instead of one!!
Southeastern even told me that they don’t miss out stations to try and pick up time on stopper metro services. Which is a daily occurrence

 

[Robertj21a]

I can understand totally if the semi fast is a couple of minutes late but what frequently happens is the metro will be held outside Charlton for 10 to 15 minutes just to wait for the semi fast to go through and because of this delay to the metro service southeastern will then run the metro service fast from Crayford back to London Bridge which inconveniences intending passengers. To me that scenario makes no sense as now your are making two trains late instead of one!!
Southeastern even told me that they don’t miss out stations to try and pick up time on stopper metro services. Which is a daily occurrence

10 to 15 minutes !! - really ?

 

[hwl]

As a reminder technically SE are on their 3rd direct award extension rather than a franchise (so the thread title is wrong - Should be "Do you think Southeastern should lose their Direct Award"), as such their spending plans are at the discretion of DfT and that includes strategies for managing the cost of compensation for delays...
As the tendering for the replacement franchise is well underway and DfT has bigger problems SE losing isn't going to happen.

As a reminder about half the total length of time between the future franchise award and the previous franchise tender will have been spend in extensions / direct awards which are usually never good for investment or passengers as it usually involves doing DfT minimum they can get away with option so returns to DfT are maximised.

 

[carriageline]

Sticking a stopper in front of a fast or semi fast is stupid beyond belief and when it happens.. "!£"$£"%$%£$ the Signaler" You stick the semi in front because it will gain headway and clear junctions and stations so that it doesn't impact the stopper. Sticking a metro in front just means the semi will sit outside stations and wait. As its not stopping you are creating a delay for no reason and you have a train that creeps through a station with passengers watching it go by.

You also create a situation where passenger loading becomes an issue. If the semi goes in front, then they tend to load more passengers than usual as those who would board the stopper now board a different train. They are semi for a reason and can also be heavily loaded so the additional load creates a delay. You can then have a stopper hit a platform that's half empty and on a restrictive aspect due to the semi in front.

I get just as pissed off when a stopper gets put in front of me when I'm ECS. I could be out the way and a few sections ahead before the stopper has carried out its platform duties. But, passengers are prioritized over ECS services even though they are trying to get to a location where they will enter passenger service.

I do not envy the job my colleagues in the box have when they need to regulate services.

I get that completely. ECS services are a pain at times. As you said, during disruption the ECS get shafted.

Definitely after the AM peak, and everything is going back to Grove Park. If the service is disrupted, then it’s a nightmare trying to squeeze everything in to the depot, and more often than not they struggle to accept the trains, so ECS get parked up to run around them.

The class 3 services are normally given a decent run, but I’ve seen them get stuck behind stoppers.

 

[whhistle]

You realize of course that the franchise is about to change.

More importantly, someone needs to check their spell checker isn't set to American!

 

[ComUtoR]

It's set to English but my OCD hates little red squiggles more than pointless spelling pedantry.

 

[Bromley boy]

Definitely after the AM peak, and everything is going back to Grove Park. If the service is disrupted, then it’s a nightmare trying to squeeze everything in to the depot, and more often than not they struggle to accept the trains, so ECS get parked up to run around them.

You can say that again. And the same issue occurs around 3-4pm when trains are being brought into traffic to strengthen the service ahead of the evening peak.

It’s the usual issue of existing infrastructure being heavily squeezed.

 

[Bromley boy]

10 to 15 minutes !! - really ?

More like 2-3 minutes in the vast majority of cases.

 

[blakey1152]

10 to 15 minutes !! - really ?

Seriously! I’ve waited at slade green for the 1656 train to cannon street via Sidcup and watched it on the national rail app get later and later as it hasn’t got to Charlton yet despite leaving Westcombe Park on time and then you see that the semi fast is running very late but they still hold up the Crayford line service. So the Crayford service ends up being 10 minutes late at Charlton and loses a few more minutes on its journey to Slade Green eventually arriving at 1706 or so . You get on and by the time it’s reached Crayford the driver has already announced that due to the late running it will run fast from Crayford to London Bridge!!! It’s because of this that I stopped using the train and swapped to getting the bus.

 

[blakey1152]

I’m sure real time trains will show that the 1656 departure is nearly always late!!!!!

 

[BluePenguin]

More importantly, someone needs to check their spell checker isn't set to American!

Like. I agree that American spelling is very annoying as this is UK Rail Forums.

Should Southeastern lose their franchise? Not entirely. A lot of people make up Southeastern and the blame should not be directed at everyone. The delay repay team could be improved and a number of departments have a lot of dead wood which if removed and replaced with proactive employees would improve the passenger experience dramatically. Staff training is lacking at the moment with many employees having almost zero knowledge of tickets. Delay repay has been terrible in the past but has gotten much better recently. The website is very well laid out and managed. Everything that needs to be there is there.

If they do lose the franchise, the running of services may not improve as much as people might expect, seeing as the same issues with infrastructure on the network will still exist. As for the various issues with staff, they will only be resolved if whoever takes them over does some "streamlining" and bring in new people to replace them. We will have to wait and see to find out.