Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[blakey1152]

Mod note: Due to the significant length of the existing thread in Allocations & Timetables regarding the Thameslink timetable introduction, and also due to the fact that discussion on the same issues was beginning to duplicate across this thread too, the forum team have decided to use this thread moving forward for all discussion regarding the Thameslink timetable change on May 20th (and related issues such as the East Midlands Trains non-calls at Bedford/Luton).

Many thanks!

Mike395 on behalf of the Forum Team

I've been looking forwards to the introduction of the new Thameslink services however it looks like the start of these new services are being rolled out over several weeks with some confusion.

Despite the Thameslink site stating that the new timetables for the weekend are now updated on the journey planners I can't find any Thameslink services from Slade Green on the Sunday 20th!

Secondly, on the Tuesday the 29th May I am travelling up to York so the new services would be great as I can go straight to St Pancras and walk to Kings Cross. However, the train I was looking to catch from Slade Green - 0551 arriving St Pancras at 0643 has got a yellow triangle on the National Rail planner site saying that this train will not run which is strange as the same train is listed on the gradual roll out of Thameslink services on Thameslink's web site as running on the 29th May.

Anyone have any idea who is right? and are Thameslink running services from Slade Green this Sunday?!

 

[telstarbox]

There are bus replacements on Sunday for Slade Green <> Gravesend which might explain it. There are some Thameslink services showing from Monday e.g. http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/basic/SGR/2018/05/22/1000

The 0551 from Slade Green is showing on RTT for 29 May: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W64363/2018/05/29

 

[Class465fan]

There are bus replacements on Sunday for Slade Green <> Gravesend which might explain it. There are some Thameslink services showing from Monday e.g. http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/basic/SGR/2018/05/22/1000

The 0551 from Slade Green is showing on RTT for 29 May: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W64363/2018/05/29

There are bus replacements on Sunday for Slade Green <> Gravesend which might explain it. There are some Thameslink services showing from Monday e.g. http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/basic/SGR/2018/05/22/1000

The 0551 from Slade Green is showing on RTT for 29 May: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W64363/2018/05/29

R.I.P semi-fast Gillingham service via woolwich

 

[ComUtoR]

Anyone have any idea who is right?

They are all right :/

The new timetable has been uploaded and the services are showing correctly as booked. There is indeed a gradual roll out of Thameslink services and there will be a slow incremental increase over the course of the next few years.

Realtime trains shows the service as booked but national rail looks to be showing the cancellations that would have been uploaded by GTR recently. They will be running a heavily amended timetable from Monday. I don't know when Realtime trains would update to the latest STP changes but there is a lot...

 

[Bromley boy]

R.I.P semi-fast Gillingham service via woolwich

Yep, I think the reality is that the changes benefit TL more than SE passengers.

Bromley South (already overcrowded) should be “interesting” next week; 2 of the current 4 orp - vics will be turned around at Bromley South with Orpington, Petts Wood and Bickley passengers advised to take a TL service to BMS and change for a fast Vic service.

EDIT: and the current TL starters and terminators at Beckenham Junction are disappearing (albeit there will more through services coming up the Chathams from Orpington).

 

[30907]

EDIT: and the current TL starters and terminators at Beckenham Junction are disappearing (albeit there will more through services coming up the Chathams from Orpington).

Being replaced by a half-hourly SE service, an improvement in the evening at least.

 

[NorthKent1989]

R.I.P semi-fast Gillingham service via woolwich

Absolutely, us lot in Medway are upset that this service was barely fought for, Medway is too far out for a stopping service, I'm actually going to Gillingham this Saturday so I shall be travelling on the Woolwich semi fast for the final time.

However if things work out well from 2022, semi fast trains could return but starting from Maidstone West! And for some reason calling at Plumstead and Woolwich Dockyard.

Yep, I think the reality is that the changes benefit TL more than SE passengers.

Bromley South (already overcrowded) should be “interesting” next week; 2 of the current 4 orp - vics will be turned around at Bromley South with Orpington, Petts Wood and Bickley passengers advised to take a TL service to BMS and change for a fast Vic service.

EDIT: and the current TL starters and terminators at Beckenham Junction are disappearing (albeit there will more through services coming up the Chathams from Orpington).

The new Thameslink services for me benefit the inner suburban areas more than us beyond Gravesend, this might sound controversial what I'm about to say but I don'tsee why the Medway should have slower journeys just so that inner London commuters don't have to wait a few minutes and want 8tph rather than the "awful" 6tph the North Kent line isn't the Victoria line.

 

[ComUtoR]

Get the high speed from Medway into Pancras and get the tube across London. Inner metro is screwed almost permanently with stopping services being pretty much all we get. Or come up via sole street on a fast service.

 

[ScotGG]

Very expensive to take HS1 though and add in the tube and lots of hassle and expense to get to Charing Cross.

Thameslink isn't really about increasing inner London to 8 tph but maintaining 6 tph at stations like Greenwich which loses 2 SE services an hour. TL skips a few stations like Erith and Belvedere but there's so much padding its slower than a train that DOES stop everywhere.

 

[urpert]

Being replaced by a half-hourly SE service, an improvement in the evening at least.

That’s only in the peaks, isn’t it?

 

[NorthKent1989]

Absolutely, us lot in Medway are upset that this service was barely fought for, Medway is too far out for a stopping service, I'm actually going to Gillingham this Saturday so I shall be travelling on the Woolwich semi fast for the final time.

However if things work out well from 2022, semi fast trains could return but starting from Maidstone West! And for some reason calling at Plumstead and Woolwich Dockyard.



The new Thameslink services for me benefit the inner suburban areas more than us beyond Gravesend, this might sound controversial what I'm about to say but I don'tsee why the Medway should have slower journeys just so that inner London commuters don't have to wait a few minutes and want 8tph rather than the "awful" 6tph the North Kent line isn't the Victoria line.

R.I.P semi-fast Gillingham service via woolwich

Its not exactly fair that the Woolwich lines constantly gets all the benefits now is it, there are fast trains from Gravesend, suck it up and change there or dig deeper into your pockets and use HS1 into St Pancras and change for the tube.

I'm fed up with Medway folks moaning about their train service all the time, Thameslink to North London, St. Albans and Luton is an excellent addition.

 

[Bromley boy]

Being replaced by a half-hourly SE service, an improvement in the evening at least.

Are those not going to Vic rather than Blackfriars?

 

[NorthKent1989]

Yep, I think the reality is that the changes benefit TL more than SE passengers.

Bromley South (already overcrowded) should be “interesting” next week; 2 of the current 4 orp - vics will be turned around at Bromley South with Orpington, Petts Wood and Bickley passengers advised to take a TL service to BMS and change for a fast Vic service.

EDIT: and the current TL starters and terminators at Beckenham Junction are disappearing (albeit there will more through services coming up the Chathams from Orpington).

I have to say but terminating trains at Bromley South, a very busy suburban station, is a stupid idea even if it is only 2tph, where will the trains be stabled?

I know they said the Orpington Thameslink service is going to fill the free 2tph spots but Orpington is a large station, surely it could handle 6tph Bromley bound terminators?

Terminating at Beckenham Junction would be better since there is bay platform there, but 2tph to Bromley South wouldn't be good as its a busy centre and 4tph to Bromley South is needed for the locals on the line.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Its not exactly fair that the Woolwich lines constantly gets all the benefits now is it, there are fast trains from Gravesend, suck it up and change there or dig deeper into your pockets and use HS1 into St Pancras and change for the tube.

I'm fed up with Medway folks moaning about their train service all the time, Thameslink to North London, St. Albans and Luton is an excellent addition.

I'm not entirely sure what benefits the Woolwich line gets compared to Sidcup, but there folks in Medway like myself who do rely on the Woolwich semi fasts, and why should we "dig deeper into our pockets" to pay premium for a train that takes us to the wrong side of London for mist of us?

St. Pancras is a nightmare of an interchange and isn't even good for those who work in the City, much less for those who commute to the West End, it is good for the Docklands, but a cheaper alternative for the Docklands has always been the Woolwich line.

Thameslink is creating a conflicting move at the North Kent Junction, in truth it might have been better if they had route this service via Sidcup in the long run, a line that could do with additional connections, but for some reason this can't happen.

But please don't say that Medway travellers are moaning when all we are is worried about how a stopping service will impact on our connections.

 

[Antman]

I have to say but terminating trains at Bromley South, a very busy suburban station, is a stupid idea even if it is only 2tph, where will the trains be stabled?

I know they said the Orpington Thameslink service is going to fill the free 2tph spots but Orpington is a large station, surely it could handle 6tph Bromley bound terminators?

Terminating at Beckenham Junction would be better since there is bay platform there, but 2tph to Bromley South wouldn't be good as its a busy centre and 4tph to Bromley South is needed for the locals on the line.

Presumably they will use platform 2 at Bromley South with a quick turnaround? I think there are a few late evening trains that do that but 6tph to Orpington would surely be better?

As for the loss of the Charing Cross-Gillingham, surely a cynical ploy to get more people onto the HS service?

 

[NorthKent1989]

Presumably they will use platform 2 at Bromley South with a quick turnaround? I think there are a few late evening trains that do that but 6tph to Orpington would surely be better?

I agree, in fact my wish for the Penge East line is for that to become 6tph one day, but I guess that have an impact on the Ramsgate/Dover services

 

[Antman]

I agree, in fact my wish for the Penge East line is for that to become 6tph one day, but I guess that have an impact on the Ramsgate/Dover services

I think 6tph could be justified but even with 4tph fast trains often get delayed.

 

[blakey1152]

Its a wait and see for the 29th May for me then..I may have to get another train and change at London Bridge...not much of a problem but would have been nice to go straight through to St Pancras

 

[30907]

That’s only in the peaks, isn’t it?

Are those not going to Vic rather than Blackfriars?

The Beckenham peak starters/terminators are going to Blackfriars/City TL, as now. The Bromley South ones off peak are for Victoria.

 

[thedbdiboy]

The Beckenham peak starters/terminators are going to Blackfriars/City TL, as now. The Bromley South ones off peak are for Victoria.

Terminating at Blackfriars so the through journey to City/Farringdon is no more but the regular half-hour frequency out and back is an improvement. With this change goes the last vestige of what at one time were the Holborn Viaduct trains, which for many years after the closure of that station terminated instead at City Thameslink giving the unusual sight of a Networker beyond Blackfriars. Once the TL rebuild started they were joined up with TL services which has been the norm for the last few years.

 

[Joe Paxton]

I have to say but terminating trains at Bromley South, a very busy suburban station, is a stupid idea even if it is only 2tph, where will the trains be stabled?

I know they said the Orpington Thameslink service is going to fill the free 2tph spots but Orpington is a large station, surely it could handle 6tph Bromley bound terminators?.

I'm all for more frequent services, but I'm not sure there's significant untapped demand between Orpington and Bromley to justify 6tph (stoppers).

From a diagramming point of view, if all 4tph from Vic continued on to Orpington I'm guessing it might need another unit?

Presumably the terminator will reverse in platform 1 or 2 at Bromley South (yes, presumably that brings risks of getting in the way of other services if things aren't running to time).

A general comment - the Catford Loop line has been in dire need of the extra Thameslink services to take it up to 4tph for a long time (though introduction of the class 700 trains did provide a bit of respite in requiring fewer contortionist skills when cramming oneself onboard!). The new arrangement seems fair enough.

 

[bionic]

Terminating at Blackfriars so the through journey to City/Farringdon is no more but the regular half-hour frequency out and back is an improvement. With this change goes the last vestige of what at one time were the Holborn Viaduct trains, which for many years after the closure of that station terminated instead at City Thameslink giving the unusual sight of a Networker beyond Blackfriars. Once the TL rebuild started they were joined up with TL services which has been the norm for the last few years.

My understanding is that Networkers were barred from going north of Blackfriars platforms 1&2 after the wires were extended from Farringdon to City Thameslink. They are now also barred from Blackfriars platform 1&2 due to the new platform humps so they only place a Networker can go at Blackfriars now is the bays (this excludes them from coming up the ramp from Met Junction too).

 

[ComUtoR]

Networkers got banned from P1&2 after an "incident"

 

[Antman]

I'm all for more frequent services, but I'm not sure there's significant untapped demand between Orpington and Bromley to justify 6tph (stoppers).

From a diagramming point of view, if all 4tph from Vic continued on to Orpington I'm guessing it might need another unit?

Presumably the terminator will reverse in platform 1 or 2 at Bromley South (yes, presumably that brings risks of getting in the way of other services if things aren't running to time).

A general comment - the Catford Loop line has been in dire need of the extra Thameslink services to take it up to 4tph for a long time (though introduction of the class 700 trains did provide a bit of respite in requiring fewer contortionist skills when cramming oneself onboard!). The new arrangement seems fair enough.

Yes the Catford loop line does need 4tph but where else can they go after Bromley South other than Orpington? Certainly 4tph to Sevenoaks via Swanley wouldn't be justified. I don't think terminating trains from Victoria at Bromley South is ideal, it's just likely to cause more congestion on the narrow island platforms as well as possible delays to other trains. The only other option would be 6tph to Orpington.

 

[MedwayValiant]

Its not exactly fair that the Woolwich lines constantly gets all the benefits now is it, there are fast trains from Gravesend, suck it up and change there or dig deeper into your pockets and use HS1 into St Pancras and change for the tube.

I'm fed up with Medway folks moaning about their train service all the time, Thameslink to North London, St. Albans and Luton is an excellent addition.

I beg your pardon!

Two journeys that I need to do fairly often are Rochester to Bickley and Rochester to Woolwich Arsenal. The first named will take me 34 minutes when I do it tomorrow morning, but 53 minutes if I wanted to do it in a week's time. The second named would take me 41 minutes if I were to do it tomorrow morning, but 52 minutes (and with only one journey opportunity per hour as opposed to two at present) when I do need to do it in a week's time. Give me one good reason why I shouldn't be allowed to moan about these negative enhancements to my travelling experience.

As for Luton, I cannot think of any earthly reason why I should ever want to go there. But even if I did, the fastest available journey under the new timetable takes three minutes longer than it does today, and still involves HS to St Pancras and a change there. For sure, I will now have the option of a direct train - but it takes an hour longer, and is no cheaper. (There is no HS supplement for most journeys which continue beyond London.)

 

[BluePenguin]

I am equally disappointed that journey times will be increasing. This is not helped by the 5 additional stops of course, however I can't understand why so much padding has been included as it is not needed. It makes the service much less attractive compared to going to Victoria or St Pancras and then getting the underground. At this rate all routes across the Southeastern network will lose their fast services and every single service will be a stopping one, apart from HS1 of course as it is massive cash cow due to passengers having no other fast alternative to reach the capital or airport.

As for the post regarding "sucking it up and getting the underground", was it not the original purpose of Thameslink to relieve passengers from using it and to provide new journey opportunities?

Will the extended journey times and stopping pattern be enough to persuade people from Medway off the route and onto HS1, forcing them to pay extra? I think so, but only time will tell. Is it fair? Of course it is not. But the same as East Kent passengers were forced onto HS1 when their mainline service journey times were extended, Medway passengers are now to go through the same experience. Many whose journeys will not be feasible due to length who cannot afford to pay extra to shorten them, will definitely be priced off the railways

 

[NorthKent1989]

I beg your pardon!

Two journeys that I need to do fairly often are Rochester to Bickley and Rochester to Woolwich Arsenal. The first named will take me 34 minutes when I do it tomorrow morning, but 53 minutes if I wanted to do it in a week's time. The second named would take me 41 minutes if I were to do it tomorrow morning, but 52 minutes (and with only one journey opportunity per hour as opposed to two at present) when I do need to do it in a week's time. Give me one good reason why I shouldn't be allowed to moan about these negative enhancements to my travelling experience.

As for Luton, I cannot think of any earthly reason why I should ever want to go there. But even if I did, the fastest available journey under the new timetable takes three minutes longer than it does today, and still involves HS to St Pancras and a change there. For sure, I will now have the option of a direct train - but it takes an hour longer, and is no cheaper. (There is no HS supplement for most journeys which continue beyond London.)

I completely agree and sympathise, I commute from Rochester and I work all over London (Twickenham, West End and Docklands mainly) so my current commute to London Bridge is around 1hr10mins, but this will increase by nearly 20 mins, going via Bromley isn't an option because services there have slowed down, I hate it how inner city commuters say we're being unreasonable or selfish just because we don't want to travel on a all stops metro service which benefits them.

 

[NorthKent1989]

I beg your pardon!

Two journeys that I need to do fairly often are Rochester to Bickley and Rochester to Woolwich Arsenal. The first named will take me 34 minutes when I do it tomorrow morning, but 53 minutes if I wanted to do it in a week's time. The second named would take me 41 minutes if I were to do it tomorrow morning, but 52 minutes (and with only one journey opportunity per hour as opposed to two at present) when I do need to do it in a week's time. Give me one good reason why I shouldn't be allowed to moan about these negative enhancements to my travelling experience.

As for Luton, I cannot think of any earthly reason why I should ever want to go there. But even if I did, the fastest available journey under the new timetable takes three minutes longer than it does today, and still involves HS to St Pancras and a change there. For sure, I will now have the option of a direct train - but it takes an hour longer, and is no cheaper. (There is no HS supplement for most journeys which continue beyond London.)

Why should the Medway have a faster journey time than Slade Green? Or Plumstead, you are being selfish they will get a much needed upgrade to 8tph and sorry but the Medway needs to make sacrifices so inner London stations can achieve full metro-isation, as I have stated you can change at Gravesend for the mire useful and much needed fasts via Sidcup which has always been the ugly stepsister compared to the Woolwich line.

The Woolwich line isn't that hard done by with all their interchanges to other parts of London, the Sidcup line needs this upgrade, so the Medway should be grateful for Thameslink you can now get to North London without changing to the overcrowded tube.

 

[NorthKent1989]

I completely agree and sympathise, I commute from Rochester and I work all over London (Twickenham, West End and Docklands mainly) so my current commute to London Bridge is around 1hr10mins, but this will increase by nearly 20 mins, going via Bromley isn't an option because services there have slowed down, I hate it how inner city commuters say we're being unreasonable or selfish just because we don't want to travel on a all stops metro service which benefits them.

But you are being unreasonable, Why should passengers at Plumstead have to wait an extra few minutes just because Abbey Wood and Woolwich Arsenal passengers want to save a few small minutes, the Woolwich line nearly a proper metro service with 8tph at most of the stations! This is a good thing!

 

[Antman]

Why should the Medway have a faster journey time than Slade Green? Or Plumstead, you are being selfish they will get a much needed upgrade to 8tph and sorry but the Medway needs to make sacrifices so inner London stations can achieve full metro-isation, as I have stated you can change at Gravesend for the mire useful and much needed fasts via Sidcup which has always been the ugly stepsister compared to the Woolwich line.

The Woolwich line isn't that hard done by with all their interchanges to other parts of London, the Sidcup line needs this upgrade, so the Medway should be grateful for Thameslink you can now get to North London without changing to the overcrowded tube.

Anybody in a hurry would use HS to St Pancras and change. I can't see what benefit Thameslink brings to the Medway towns, I'd rather it terminated at Gravesend and the Charing Cross to Gravesend via Sidcup service be extended to Rainham.