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Transgender sporting question

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WelshBluebird

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Therefore, I would suggest it is a condition that develops subsequently to birth.

It is a delusional condition

Well apart from the fact there is evidence to suggest that for people with GD, their brain scans show that their brains more closely match their preferred gender than the birth sex.
 
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AlterEgo

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As I said, gender dysphoria is no more of a delusion than your belief that you're a man.You know you are a man. Is it because you have a penis, or because you just *are* a man? If you had an accident and your penis dropped off, would you stop being a man? No, you wouldn't.

Knowing your gender is no different to knowing your sexuality. It just is what it is. Sometimes the gender that a person knows that they are doesn't match their genes. It's not delusion.

I think it is important to note the difference between gender dysphoria and being simply non-binary. Gender dysphoria is a psychological disorder where a person is distressed at the mismatch between their sex and their perceived gender. It is a very serious condition and often comes with self-harm, substance abuse, personality disorders or other psychological disorders, and even death due to suicide.

People with gender dysphoria deserve the sympathy and compassion anyone else with a health problem would otherwise get. They should have access to healthcare, be protected from harm by the law, and be encouraged to get on in life.

There was a lengthy and not-very-constructive discussion about this last time the subject was aired. Trans women are trans women - they are not men - but they are not actually women in the same way as my mother, my girlfriend or my sister (who are all cis). Anyone who claims to disagree with this but at the same time does not think trans women should compete in female sports is contradicting themselves. There are fundamental differences between trans women and cis women which cannot be reconciled.
 

AlterEgo

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Well apart from the fact there is evidence to suggest that for people with GD, their brain scans show that their brains more closely match their preferred gender than the birth sex.

Yes, that's fascinating research I read about only this week I think - but I note we don't know if gender dysphoria is an inherited condition or caused by genetics, or by environment. Changes in brain structure can happen long after birth, with dementia being an example (obviously dementia is not the same as GD, I'm only using it as an example!).
 

tony_mac

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Men indisputably have a significant advantage over women in any given scenario.
Only as a gross generalisation. It's true for Average man vs Average woman, but there is plenty of overlap.
People who were born as male but identify as female should not under any circumstances play in the women's game. It's not fair.
By the same token, it's not fair that tall men should play basketball against short men, etc. etc.
There are plenty of people born male who are below average-sized for women. There are also plenty who had hormone treatment early whose bodies never developed like a male body.
Why should they not be allowed to play?

As there are very few cases where it would actually be significantly unfair, I don't see any need for a blanket ban.
 

Bromley boy

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As I said, gender dysphoria is no more of a delusion than your belief that you're a man.

Yes it is, by definition, since I do not suffer from gender dysphoria.

You know you are a man. Is it because you have a penis, or because you just *are* a man? If you had an accident and your penis dropped off, would you stop being a man? No, you wouldn't.

No, in that scenario I wouldn’t stop being a man. By the same token, if I was labouring under the delusion that I was “really” a woman, had breast implants and a penis inversion, I wouldn’t truly be a woman.

I suppose the concept of being male is a complex mixture of both gender and physical characteristics. It contains both subjective and objective elements.

It is ridiculous to suggest that gender and physical sex are completely seperate, or that a person’s identity as male or female is solely a subjective matter that can be changed.

Despite the best efforts of Munroe Bergdorf etc. a person’s identity as either male or female is not a completely moveable feast.

Knowing your gender is no different to knowing your sexuality. It just is what it is. Sometimes the gender that a person knows that they are doesn't match their genes. It's not delusion.

It’s completely different from sexuality. A gay man is still a man.

As a straight male I would not be sexually attracted to a man who identifies as a woman, no matter how feminine they looked.
 
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AlterEgo

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Only as a gross generalisation. It's true for Average man vs Average woman, but there is plenty of overlap.

Yes, the average women versus the average man. I'm 5'8", and I accept that a 6'5" female basketballer is going to be more proficient at the sport than I am. I don't agree there is that significant an overlap between male and female sports. Give me a list of all the record holders by gender in the Olympics, in events both genders compete in, and we will see how many of them are women.

By the same token, it's not fair that tall men should play basketball against short men, etc. etc.

That's a false analogy, because people, like me, who are shorter will self-selectively not play basketball and there is not an equal rights movement to level the playing field so shortarses like me, cruel victims of our biology, can play.

There are plenty of people born male who are below average-sized for women. There are also plenty who had hormone treatment early whose bodies never developed like a male body.
Why should they not be allowed to play?

Men who are small should not play in female sports teams. They should play male sports. Sports are there to actually cherish and exemplify the differences between people, not to equalise everything. As an example, Kenyans and East Africans dominate distance running because of their superior biology in that given discipline which gives them a significant advantage. This is a difference to be wondered at and celebrated. There are an enormous number of different demographic factors you could divide people up by in order to make things "fair", but that is not the point of sport. The equality of opportunity should be there - you can enter the race if you wish - but if you are just born short and dumpy don't expect to win the 100m, ever. Equality of outcome is always wrong.

I don't agree that people who have hormone treatment can play female sports, because I don't agree they are female in the same way. It is also very one-sided; women who underwent hormone treatment to become men would make far less of an impact than men who became women would on the women's games. I would feel much more supportive of transgender sports events, which is something the mainstream is totally missing. The Paralympics have managed to (as effectively as they can) empower disabled people and dispel myths, and Trans/Intersex games would have a similar impact, I feel.

Ultimately, I support the empowerment of individuals, but I don't accept that should be done by telling fibs to ourselves that men who become women are the same as women who were born women.
 

pemma

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Personally I'm not in favour of single sex teams or separate events for men and women. I recall a former manager of Italian football club Perugia (when they were in Serie A) attempted to sign two of the most highly rate female football players to play in the same team as the men but they both rejected his offer. Maybe they didn't want the pressure? I mean if they didn't stand out for a team fighting regulation then it wouldn't look like the standard of female footballers is high.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Personally I'm not in favour of single sex teams or separate events for men and women. I recall a former manager of Italian football club Perugia (when they were in Serie A) attempted to sign two of the most highly rate female football players to play in the same team as the men but they both rejected his offer. Maybe they didn't want the pressure? I mean if they didn't stand out for a team fighting regulation then it wouldn't like the standard of female footballers is high.

So I guess you accept, then, the idea that women will mostly not be sports champions because they would need to put in a lot more effort in many sports to reach the level of male competitors due to the latter's genetic advantage?

Look at your average Parkrun, about as open and accessible a sporting event as they get. Most reasonably fit blokes can get a time of around or just under 25 minutes without putting that much effort in beforehand - for most women that requires considerable training. How often does a woman come in in first place? It's rare - it's almost always a relatively young (often older teens or early 20s at most), skinny bloke.

Indeed, there's quite a quirky series of races that are run near me called the "Chicks and Chaps" - the way they work is that they run a series of 4 events, each of the first three with a separate male and female race (though they did let a late arriving woman enter the mens' race last time I did it - and she beat me, too!). Then for the last one they calculate a handicap based on the average difference over the previous three and delay sending the blokes off - the idea being to create a "fair" race.
 
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pemma

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So I guess you accept, then, the idea that women will mostly not be sports champions because they would need to put in a lot more effort in many sports to reach the level of male competitors due to the latter's genetic advantage?

An interesting observation is Usain Bolt holds the fastest record for men's 100m in 2009, beating a record set by Asafa Powell in 2008, who himself beat a record set in 1999 by Maurice Green. On the other hand Florence Griffith Joyner has held the women's record since 1988. Why are the men's records constantly being beaten while women's aren't? Another observation is many women taller than Florence Griffith Joyner have failed to beat her, while Bolt is one of the tallest ever sprinters.
 

Bromley boy

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No it isn't.

From google translate:

gender dysphoria
noun
MEDICINE
  1. the condition of feeling one's emotional and psychological identity as male or female to be opposite to one's biological sex.

From the OED:

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/delusion
delusion
1An idiosyncratic belief or impression maintained despite being contradicted by reality or rational argument, typically as a symptom of mental disorder.

The idiosyncratic belief in this case being the person’s belief/impression that their gender does not match their biological sex.


So, yes it is.
 

Bromley boy

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I wonder why this board has suddenly become so interested in trans rights?

Probably because it’s recently become a fashionable, PC, hobby horse, with a generous dollop of victimhood and identity politics thrown in. Such topics are often popular on this board, particularly with those posters who enjoy virtue signalling.

To be clear I have absolutely no problem with trans people having rights, and indeed living their lives as they wish. Why would I? It isn’t something that impacts on my life.

I do have an issue with being asked to deny factual reality. A trans woman who was born a man is not, and never will be, the same as a cis woman. End of.
 

itznonbine

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As a Trans* person myself the FA has a procedure for this and it is based on gender identity. Yet unfortunately you don't hear of someone trans* at proffesinal episode
 

itznonbine

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This is false.
There is so many trans* women you wouldn't even know they were born a man unless you dated them.
 

tony_mac

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A trans woman who was born a man is not, and never will be, the same as a cis woman. End of.
Yes, we all know that - especially those effected. But, in many cases, there is no harm in treating them like that - and by doing so you make some people's very difficult lives slightly easier.
There are awkward cases, such as sports, where you can only make some peoples' lives easier by making others harder. I prefer to try and look at each situation on its merits, rather than adopt a blanket and unflinching policy that some prefer.

I believe that trying to offer understanding in the face of ignorance can be called 'virtue signalling'.
 

DarloRich

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I don't agree that people who have hormone treatment can play female sports, because I don't agree they are female in the same way. It is also very one-sided; women who underwent hormone treatment to become men would make far less of an impact than men who became women would on the women's games. I would feel much more supportive of transgender sports events, which is something the mainstream is totally missing. The Paralympics have managed to (as effectively as they can) empower disabled people and dispel myths, and Trans/Intersex games would have a similar impact, I feel.

Ultimately, I support the empowerment of individuals, but I don't accept that should be done by telling fibs to ourselves that men who become women are the same as women who were born women.

I agree.
 
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AlterEgo

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I wonder why this board has suddenly become so interested in trans rights?

Because trans rights are now at the vanguard of the equality agenda now gay people can get married. I think it's a real shame that they are being pursued in the way they are, in terms of compelling people to believe trans women are women in the same way as cis women. A lot of people do not fundamentally agree with this.

Trans people currently do not enjoy equal status in society and I support their rights to access employment, voting, marriage, their rights to be protected from harm, their right to healthcare, their right to be treated with respect and dignity, and so on. Trans people get the thin end of the wedge with being the victims of violence, unwanted fetishisation, poor workplace visibility, along with a number of other structural and cultural barriers.

I personally can't empathise with trans people as their issues are alien to me as a cis man. I think any cis person would be lying if they claimed they knew what it was like to be trans. While the issue is murky, I will happily use my vote to empower trans people and would never ever support legislation against them (for example, Trump's trans ban in the military - disgraceful).

I don't agree, however, that we should let biological men compete in female sports when men have a distinct biological advantage.
 

DarloRich

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Because trans rights are now at the vanguard of the equality agenda now gay people can get married. I think it's a real shame that they are being pursued in the way they are, in terms of compelling people to believe trans women are women in the same way as cis women. A lot of people do not fundamentally agree with this.

But is that realistic? Who is driving such a desire?

Trans people currently do not enjoy equal status in society and I support their rights to access employment, voting, marriage, their rights to be protected from harm, their right to healthcare, their right to be treated with respect and dignity, and so on. Trans people get the thin end of the wedge with being the victims of violence, unwanted fetishisation, poor workplace visibility, along with a number of other structural and cultural barriers.

I certainly take the point about violence, fetishisation, isolation etc but are legal rights not equal? What legal rights do I have a man called Richard enjoy that I wouldn't have as a man wanting to a woman called Rachel?

I personally can't empathise with trans people as their issues are alien to me as a cis man. I think any cis person would be lying if they claimed they knew what it was like to be trans. While the issue is murky, I will happily use my vote to empower trans people and would never ever support legislation against them (for example, Trump's trans ban in the military - disgraceful).

I don't agree, however, that we should let biological men compete in female sports when men have a distinct biological advantage.

i agree with you.
 
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61653 HTAFC

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It is just as daft a question - how is a newborn baby going to express how they perceive their gender?

The 'biologically' male / female is not as simple as you like to think. You will be aware that male and female brains tend to be different - these include noticeable differences in the actual structure of the brain.
This different development occurs as the result of lots of complex genetic and chemical signals (including maternal hormones) there is no single signal that determines if the brain will develop to be 'male' or 'female', there are hundreds, and they may not all say the same thing. In reality, everyone has a unique brain structure, with varying amounts of traits that tend to occur in male or female brains.

Some people with male sex organs will develop brains that have quite a different structure to other 'male' brains, and may have far more in common with 'female' brains. And vice-versa, and all sorts of things in-between. I don't think that means they are all 'delusional'.

On that basis, the very idea of brains being "male" or "female" is of limited real-world value then.

Yes, we all know that - especially those effected. But, in many cases, there is no harm in treating them like that - and by doing so you make some people's very difficult lives slightly easier.
There are awkward cases, such as sports, where you can only make some peoples' lives easier by making others harder. I prefer to try and look at each situation on its merits, rather than adopt a blanket and unflinching policy that some prefer.

I believe that trying to offer understanding in the face of ignorance can be called 'virtue signalling'.

Often, "virtue-signalling" is a synonym for "an opinion I disagree with but can't construct a valid argument against.".
 

Up_Tilt_390

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I will happily use my vote to empower trans people and would never ever support legislation against them (for example, Trump's trans ban in the military - disgraceful).

The only wonder I have about the Transgender military ban is if whether Gender Dysphoria and such could be classed as a mental illness. If it is then I wouldn't see why it should be an exception when other mental illnesses already disqualify someone from serving in the armed forces. Some people are pretty much disqualified from the minute they're born, others when they develop it later on and such, but doesn't matter. Don't get me wrong I am not saying I supported Trump's ban, but I didn't know the reasons behind it. If Gender Dysphoria really is a mental health issue then I don't see why it should be excluded from military bans of other mental illnesses.
 

WelshBluebird

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but I didn't know the reasons behind it

Because he is a transphobic bigot.

Officially the reasoning was to do with the costs of the military paying for operations. But I call BS on that simply because the military pays something like 5 times more on viagra that it does for anything related to trans care / operations, and because if they wanted to they could just have a clause that said the military doesn't have to help pay for such things.
 

507021

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From google translate:



From the OED:

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/delusion


The idiosyncratic belief in this case being the person’s belief/impression that their gender does not match their biological sex.


So, yes it is.

I have spoken to people I know who have gender dysphoria, and I would not consider them to be delusional. They themselves have said they simply do not feel they have the body they should have been born with.

What is so delusional about that?
 

AlterEgo

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I certainly take the point about violence, fetishisation, isolation etc but are legal rights not equal? What legal rights do I have a man called Richard enjoy that I wouldn't have as a man wanting to a woman called Rachel?

The Equality Act ensures that legally, trans people have the same rights as everyone else. We should be vigilant to ensure it is not repealed or come into conflict with other legislation any government may introduce. Trans people don't have quite the same status as cis people, but that's different to claiming they don't have the same rights.
 

AlterEgo

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The only wonder I have about the Transgender military ban is if whether Gender Dysphoria and such could be classed as a mental illness. If it is then I wouldn't see why it should be an exception when other mental illnesses already disqualify someone from serving in the armed forces. Some people are pretty much disqualified from the minute they're born, others when they develop it later on and such, but doesn't matter. Don't get me wrong I am not saying I supported Trump's ban, but I didn't know the reasons behind it. If Gender Dysphoria really is a mental health issue then I don't see why it should be excluded from military bans of other mental illnesses.

Gender dysphoria is not a mental illness but a psychological disorder. Trans people are not mentally ill but many of them do have a psychological disorder and should be assisted through that. There are lots of people in the armed forces who have psychological disorders.

Trump banned trans people from serving because he's a duty-dodger and has no concept of performing a civic duty. He also did it to appease bigots, many of whom support him.
 

Bromley boy

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Yes, we all know that - especially those effected. But, in many cases, there is no harm in treating them like that - and by doing so you make some people's very difficult lives slightly easier.

Yes, but the militant trans lobby has gone somewhat beyond that. I agree with treating people as they wish to be treated, within reason, but there are limits.

In particular I do not believe in:

- birth certificates being retrospectively altered. That is telling a lie;

- being told I must regard gender as an entirely subjective concept, entirely divorced from sex, which an individual can change with no regard to reality (a man living as a woman is not, and never will be, a “true” woman);

- activists brainwashing school children at an impressionable age to believe they are trans. Some will be, many won’t. Let them decide post adolescence with a more mature head on their shoulder before offering them surgery or hormones;

- trans women in female prisons, (especially when convicted of violent crimes against women up to and including rape);

- (on the topic of this thread) sports teams based on gender with no regard to biology.
 
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Up_Tilt_390

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Gender dysphoria is not a mental illness but a psychological disorder. Trans people are not mentally ill but many of them do have a psychological disorder and should be assisted through that. There are lots of people in the armed forces who have psychological disorders.

Trump banned trans people from serving because he's a duty-dodger and has no concept of performing a civic duty. He also did it to appease bigots, many of whom support him.

That clears it up a bit for me. My uncertainty was very much the reason for having not formed a solid opinion on Trump's transgender ban. There's not really a lot I agreed with him on anyway so I don't expect to have ever been in full support of this particular policy.
 
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