Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[MikeWM]

Looking on RTT, today may have been the worst day yet for Cambridge - only 13 out of the planned 38 semi-fasts/slows to KGX appear to have run, including only one between 1057 and 1557 (5, then 3, cancelled in a row!). The last few trains of the night all appear to have been cancelled too

I took GA to London and back, as I expected, which ran just fine. Very happy to have that choice right now!

 

[NorthKent1989]

It appears that after midday the Medway service will be hourly according to the national rail site....so much for journey opportunities what’s the use in having connections to North London, St. Albans or Luton if it’s going to be hourly! Again not seeing any benefits to Thameslink’s expansion!

 

[mugam4]

The one that annoys me the post is when we hear "isn't it wonderful, I can go to XX Airport or YY shopping centre without having to change".

This has come up a few times in this thread so I'd like to attempt, if I may, to put the matter to bed.

It is not necessarily about giving those direct 'journey opportunities' through the core to places the other side of London.

London termini are filling up, and London cannot cope with their expansion as demand increases - although it's in a lull at the moment, it's likely it will continue to increase. There is simply not the capacity to continue ramping up services to them. See: how TL/GN cannot plan to use King's Cross for trains diverted from the core.

Increasing the size of London termini is not a futureproof solution. The problem will only inevitably roll around again - and it will - and by that time, it will be even more difficult to add terminating capacity in the city centre.

Where there is space, however, is at the ends of the route. So by terminating trains there, and not in central London (and perhaps some time in the future expanding those termini?) we've reached a futureproof solution to these capacity issues.

It's a much more efficient use of space to run trains through London than to terminate them there.

Yes, the core has its reliability issues. Yes, maybe it shouldn't be two-track throughout. But, existing London termini are not without these issues.

Just imagine it doesn't say 'Luton' on the front, and says 'London Blackfriars' instead. That's for people travelling from London northwards to worry about, and a few select people making the thorugh journey on the train.

 

[ScotGG]

It appears that after midday the Medway service will be hourly according to the national rail site....so much for journey opportunities what’s the use in having connections to North London, St. Albans or Luton if it’s going to be hourly! Again not seeing any benefits to Thameslink’s expansion!

This cuts 20% of services to busy tourist stations like Greenwich. What a load of rubbish this service is.

 

[700007]

I don't see why the Rainham-all stations TL service couldn't stay as a Rainham/Gillingham semi-fast under TL though that also ran via Lewisham as before? Have I missed this somwhere?

 

[Bromley boy]

I don't see why the Rainham-all stations TL service couldn't stay as a Rainham/Gillingham semi-fast under TL though that also ran via Lewisham as before? Have I missed this somwhere?

The reasoning was keeping TL services segregated and off the busy SEML as much as possible, no doubt with half an eye on managing TL core arrival slots in future.

The move from the Greenwich line to the segregated TL lines over NKE junction is unfortunate but a lot less problematic than running TL trains up the (busy) north Kent, and, rather than turning them off at Charlton, navigating them through blackheath where the bexleyheath line merges, stopping them at Lewisham, then running them up the (busy) SEML, via St. John’s junction to access the CST lines, to NKE junction.

 

[NorthKent1989]

This cuts 20% of services to busy tourist stations like Greenwich. What a load of rubbish this service is.

We shouldn’t be concerned though as the time is simply “bedding in” try telling that to the residents of Higham and they would rightfully tell GTR where to go, Saturday was a joke, Greenwich was reduced to 4tph, that’s basically 1990s levels for the entire line, so with all the vast improvements some stations and lines were left with tph levels going back two decades and they call this progress??

I don't see why the Rainham-all stations TL service couldn't stay as a Rainham/Gillingham semi-fast under TL though that also ran via Lewisham as before? Have I missed this somwhere?

The excuse is, is that there is demand (Which Crossrail will do more that meet that demand come Dec 2018) for it to be all stops, also something about Lewisham Junction and the conflict moves in that area, it’s not ideal losing Charing Cross but I might be slightly more forgiving if GTR kept the stopping pattern the same, plus the North Kent line is set to lose CX in 2022 most likely so why not rip the band aid off now! the Thameslink could then be routed to New Cross and make a stop there and carry on to Thameslink core.

The whole timetable is completely backwards, Gravesend for example effectively has two semi fasts

1: Victoria to Gravesend, it’s pretty much, though unofficially semi fast between Victoria and Denmark Hill, then all stops to Dartford via Bexleyheath then another semi fast run to Gravesend, in which Greenhithe is the only stop.*

2: Charing Cross to Gravesend via Sidcup, which runs fast from London Bridge to New Eltham, also misses out Albany Park then all stops to Gravesend

On the other hand Medway which is further out than Gravesend is given an all stops service barrring three stations but it’s hardly semi fast in comparison to what Gravesend has, not that I’m begrudging Gravesend faster services, it’s an outer suburban town it does need faster trains, but don’t send the stoppers all the way out beyond where your terminating the fasts/semi fasts

*In the early days of the Networkers the in train stopping indicator said “Denmark Hill then fast to Victoria” on its Bexleyheath service as it did and still does skip Clapham High Street and Wandsworth Road

 

[NorthKent1989]

The reasoning was keeping TL services segregated and off the busy SEML as much as possible, no doubt with half an eye on managing TL core arrival slots in future.

The move from the Greenwich line to the segregated TL lines over NKE junction is unfortunate but a lot less problematic than running TL trains up the (busy) north Kent, navigating them through blackheath where the bexleyheath line merges, stopping them at Lewisham and then running them up the (busy) SEML, via the CST lines, to NKE junction.

Basically what I wrote but I’d say you explained it better.

My thinking on this is that the Woolwich line is going to lose CX as a terminal in a few years anyway so why not route Thameslink via Lewisham stopping at New Cross, so not to use the flat Junction at Lewisham, would this be easier or just more convoluted?

Another thing, I fully understand the need to stop at all the stops along the Greenwich line or else they would be left with a poor service, but it could still run semi fast from Charlton to Gravesend calling at the major stations, that way Medway would be happy and the Greenwich line would be happy, I would be happy with this at this stage.

 

[Bromley boy]

My thinking on this is that the Woolwich line is going to lose CX as a terminal in a few years anyway so why not route Thameslink via Lewisham stopping at New Cross, so not to use the flat Junction at Lewisham, would this be easier or just more convoluted?

The thinking, such as it is (!), will be that passengers from the inner north Kent line* stations (the woolwiches, Plumstead etc.) can board a thameslink and change at London Bridge for Ch+ (albeit slightly longer than going direct Charlton - Blackheath via the tunnel as the SE semi fast services did), or simply board an ex Dartford SE service which goes directly to Ch+ via blackheath. If and when that goes in favour of CST services they can change at Lewisham/London Bridge for Ch+.

Medway passengers are assumed to take either a slow TL via the north Kent, a fast SE mainliner towards Vic via the Chathams or a high speed to Pancras via HS1 - no help for your situation, I realise. Pay your money, take your choice.

*to be clear which line is which, the north Kent line is the line which diverges from the Chatham mainline immediately after crossing the Medway, post Rochester, London end of the bridge (seriously sad knowledge, but the curve downwards from the Chathams is called Toomer loop), the Medway valley line immediately merges in, Strood is the first station on the north Kent.

(After Rochester the Chatham mainline goes straight ahead and commences the long climb up Sole Street bank towards Meopham, Longfield, Bromley South and ultimately Victoria.)

The north Kent continues through Strood and Higham tunnels, via Higham, Gravesend, Dartford, Sludge Green, the Woolwiches etc. (the Greenwich line diverges at Charlton and joins the SEML slow/CST lines at NKE junction). The north Kent itself runs through Blackheath tunnel, through Lewisham p3 and P4, finally ending at St. John’s junction where it joins the SEML slow/CST lines.

 

[Kanrakuq]

TL have cancelled a load of trains and then deleted them from the planners, to make it "easier to understand," according to their Twitter people.

 

[urpert]

Looks like the best day’s service yet on the Catford Loop. No cancellations at the moment.

 

[Downthelane]

What on earth is going on this morning? Trains that ran last week now simply don't exist?

This is bordering on criminal.

 

[frediculous]

What on earth is going on this morning? Trains that ran last week now simply don't exist?

This is bordering on criminal.

Can't cancel a train that doesn't exist!
*Head tapping gif*

 

[Downthelane]

Surely under terms of contract deleting from schedule is a breach?

 

[Bishopstone]

As predicted by many of us, we now have a de facto Emergency Timetable, but smuggled in without explanation as though nobody will notice.

There needs to be a ‘cards on table’ public statement explaining why this has happened and when, if ever, the full timetabled service will resume. Alongside a fulsome apology. The only reason not to have the inevitable reckoning today is career preservation.

 

[Failed Unit]

Surely under terms of contract deleting from schedule is a breach?

They claim it is to help people plan. They believe that if you want to put in a planner Welwyn Garden city - London Kings cross it is better to see only trains at 0802 & 0852 rather than the direct cancelled ones (Maybe the Moorgates will show up)
I just wish the would change the timetable for a period. If the 0832 won’t run until June, cancel it everyday. We can’t plan at the moment as you don’t know what is going to be cancelled until about 1 hour before hand.
Is this as bad or worse than Southern 2 years ago?
(Other station not available get driving to Royston / Hitchin if you live at smaller stations towards Peterborough or Cambridge)

How long can Charles Horton keep telling the media his company is doing a good job?

I guess the GTR apologists were right about 1 thing. We will appreciate the space for standing passengers on the 700s. But be interesting how today can be shown as an increase in capacity?

 

[Hadders]

Update from Stevenage station.

Under the old timetable there used to be 8 trains to London between 07:00 and 07:59.

Today we have 3. And that’s not due to any infrastructure issues.

A total, utter shambles.

Two weeks ago there were sufficient drivers to operate 8 trains between Stevenage and London between 07:00 and 07:50. How come there’s only enough to operate 3 today?

 

[Antman]

With that argument, they might as well not bothered with Crossrail as long established trains from Greenford won't be able to run to Paddington. I'm enjoying this new Thameslink services (although admittedly when it runs at the moment) at Greenwich. Makes getting to north London a lot easier and when I go to my Nan's as she moved to Doncaster a few years ago.

Unfortunately the many positives, well once the service is running properly, tend to get overlooked. Obviously in Greenwich you have other options when things go wrong but some people don't have that luxury.

I think the service through Greenwich should terminate at Gravesend but that's a separate issue.

 

[mongoose]

They are not announcing any Moorgate trains at WGC

 

[ijmad]

The missing includes all of the xx:23 Peterborough services, plus some others including Surrey and Gatwick.

Twitter is claiming they have "cancelled the services we know are not able to be run to give our customers a clearer idea of travel options available today".

On the plus side, some Luton/Rainham services and the remaining Peterborough/Horsham services do appear to be actually running.

 

[Downthelane]

View attachment 47406
They are not announcing any Moorgate trains at WGC

The 7.52 from WGC is supposedly cancelled....so is it or isn't it?

 

[stut]

Actually looking quite good this morning on the Peterborough route. Just goes to show what you can do when half your passengers don't show up due to half term...

Hope the return goes as smoothly. Would you want to face the wrath of 100s of furious parents and their little smashers at 4pm when it all goes belly up? Hitchin Revolution eat your heart out.

 

[andos]

Lots of the East Grinstead Thameslink trains cancelled this morning. In a shocking outbreak of helpfulness they seem to have lengthened some of the later southern uckfield trains are are stopping them at Upper Warlingham and Sanderstead to help those travelling to London bridge.

 

[jfisher21]

looks like brighton - cambridge is cancelled until lunchtime - 0616 london bridge - cambridge has vanished from the journey planners!

 

[RichJF]

Lots of the East Grinstead Thameslink trains cancelled this morning. In a shocking outbreak of helpfulness they seem to have lengthened some of the later southern uckfield trains are are stopping them at Upper Warlingham and Sanderstead to help those travelling to London bridge.

They've been cancelled wholesale every day since the new timetable came in last week. My neighbour used to get the Southern East Grinstead-London Bridge services & has given up with the TL ones.
Lots of murmurings on social media about East Grinstead commuters being very unhappy with TL so far.

 

[BRX]

Seems like a lot of folk are saying that the new timetable is fundamentally flawed on the basis of running trains through the core, between disparate destinations, and the unreliability this creates as a result of problems in one location spreading to others far away.

That's fair enough, of course this is going to be a problem but that's always been a problem on Thameslink; it's the nature of the beast.

What's the alternative, assuming we don't give up on the attempt to increase capacity overall? Trains obviously can't terminate in the core so where is it that they should be turning back? Are there feasible locations that are closer in to London than the current end points? What are they?

 

[47421]

The failure to provide info on what services are planned to run is almost unbelievable. When c2c (yes I know it is a very different self contained operation etc etc) introduced a new timetable a few years ago, with some major teething problems centred around over-crowding at London end after many extra West Ham and Barking stops were added, they published an almost daily Directors Blog explaining what was happening and what they were doing to try to fix issues. Blogs were signed off by named senior employees. https://www.c2c-online.co.uk/travel...es-and-trains/c2c-director-timetable-updates/

Has there been any public comment from any of the members of the Thameslink Programme Industry Readiness Board?

 

[Failed Unit]

Does removing trains from the journey planner help GTRs PPM? If you take today. The GN outers are at 37% on time. But if you include the ones removed from the journey planners it would be much lower. Do GTR gain another advantage in respect it makes their PPM look better?

Same on Sundays. The inners were in the 90%+ region. But then 50% of them were cancelled and removed from the journey planner.

 

[87015]

Does removing trains from the journey planner help GTRs PPM? If you take today. The GN outers are at 37% on time. But if you include the ones removed from the journey planners it would be much lower. Do GTR gain another advantage in respect it makes their PPM look better?

Same on Sundays. The inners were in the 90%+ region. But then 50% of them were cancelled and removed from the journey planner.

Yes, thats why its done.

 

[THCroydon]

Does anyone know why the 0704 Horsham-Bedford was diverted to run via Crystal Palace today and therefore didn't stop at London Bridge? Reason given by the driver (who didn't announce this until the train reached ECR) was the usual 'operational difficulties', although as far as I could tell there weren't any signalling issues/delays at LBG. Looked like the following TL departure from ECR was being sent this way too.

Similar thing happened to me last week from BFR going the other way - station info screens and LDB indicated that the train would miss out LBG - however, in this instance the train did then stop at LBG, creating further confusion!

Is this a driver issue, are some TL drivers still not trained to run ECR-LBG-BFR?

In any case, pretty ridiculous after all the money spent upgrading LBG and the tracks around it.