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Season Ticket Changeover - proof of living/working in area

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tony_mac

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It's in the conditions that a changeover is permitted for specific reasons.
and it is in the Conditions of Travel that a changeover is permitted with the only conditions being on the length and validity of the ticket.
The season ticket conditions claim to clarify but not 'modify in any way' the Conditions of Travel. I would say that imposing a previously unmentioned condition is really an attempt at a modification.
 
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etr221

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The "Season ticket conditions" (which I would agree are overuled by the CoT) reference to change of address or work place are an implication that ordinary season tickets are specifically for journeys between work and home, not something I believe stated or required anywhere else: I would say they - like all ordinary tickets - are for people whose circumstances require them to make the specified journey (season tickets are just there to facilitate making it repeatedly), regardless of its purpose. Changeover is required because circumstances have changed; and I would regard enquiry as to them by the railway as an invasion of privacy - indeed I would ask whether the railway requesting (or having) them is covered by GDPR (it is personal data that the railway has no obvious need for).

But, having said that, I note that the original request (as in the OP) was merely for proof (was anything specified as to what was required for this?) that that you live (or work) 'in the area' (whatever that means) - my inclination might be to show (but not allow a copy to be made) of such proof...
 

ForTheLoveOf

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So I’ve had a response from the manager - who turned out to be ‘customer relations supervisor’. They say ‘We reserve the right to refuse your request should this evidence not be provided.’ And that if I am not satisfied with their request I can contact Transport Focus.

Any thoughts?
They have no right whatsoever to deny you your contractual right to a changeover. The NRCoT doesn't state, for example, that 'if you have changed address or work' you can get a changeover. It's a contractual right qualified only on your season ticket having a sufficient number of days' validity remaining.

You may want to contact Transport Focus, but with a response as ludicrous as that manager's, I don't see what they are going to be able to achieve that you haven't been able to. After all, all they do is to contact the TOC and ask them to review their response, they're not an Ombudsman that imposes its own decision.

If/when you have contacted Transport Focus and obtained the TOC's inevitable rejection, or decided that you don't want to waste your time doing this, you have a number of options. You could perhaps contact your MP to ask for them to contact the company - in a limited number of cases this has helped.

If you paid any of the season ticket by crsdit card you could make a S75 claim against your credit card provider. Or if you preferred, you could simply start the County Court procedure (letter before action). I don't see it as a particularly complex case - you have a contract with SWR, which gives you the right to a changeover. They have refused this because they demand proof of something upon which the right is not qualified. You therefore claim the amount of the changeover refund and/or any losses incurred due to their refusal.
 

Haywain

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It’s a duplicate ticket but only because the original was damaged and so handed back to ticket office for a new
It is very important to know whether the ticket actually carried the word "Duplicate" on it, or the word "Replacement". I very strongly suspect the former and this is very relevant.

If this is the case, I suspect that the TOC are proceeding on the basis that it IS a duplicate. Whilst the entitlement to a changeover season is absolute, there is not an automatic entitlement to a refund from the original ticket when a duplicate has been issued. This is covered clearly by the NRCoT:
National Rail Conditions of Travel said:
  • 40.5. If you require a refund on a duplicate Season Ticket, the Train Company may request additional information (e.g. evidence of new address, a new job, redundancy, or prolonged illness of the holder) and/or may be asked to attend a meeting with the Train Company concerned. Train Companies have agreed a Code of Practice for such meetings, a copy of which can be found in Appendix C.
  • 40.6. Train Companies reserve the right to refuse to issue refunds on duplicate Season Tickets if they have reasonable grounds to believe that such requests are being made fraudulently.
The TOC are requesting additional information as indicated in 40.5 above, supporting the possibility that they are treating the original ticket (that is, the ticket submitted for the changeover) as a duplicate. Condition 40.6 allows them (in my view) to back this up with a refusal of refund if they believe that the reason for changeover (and one has to be given on the request form) is fraudulent and the request has been made to obtain a refund to which there would otherwise be no entitlement.

My advice to James12345AA is to respond to the TOC with full information about the ticket and how the re-issued ticket was obtained. If it was a replacement that was incorrectly issued (and potentially recorded) as a duplicate there should still be a paper trail back to that as both transactions require paperwork to be completed and retained by the TOC with the original ticket retained in the case of a replacement (that obviously won't happen for a duplicate). If, however, this really was a duplicate then accept that the TOC are on to you and you won't be seeing a refund.
 

Bletchleyite

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Does anyone have any knowledge of this area? How would you respond to the TOC? My feeling is to say that I am unable to provide such proof for reasons of confidentiality.

Are you actually able to provide such proof? If so, why not just provide it and the matter will be resolved?

If you didn't want to show them something like a payslip from your old and new employers, I'm sure the letter accepting your resignation and the offer letter would do, or indeed anything on company letterhead.
 

Dai Corner

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Are you actually able to provide such proof? If so, why not just provide it and the matter will be resolved?

If you didn't want to show them something like a payslip from your old and new employers, I'm sure the letter accepting your resignation and the offer letter would do, or indeed anything on company letterhead.

And if he can't provide such proof because the reason for requesting the changeover is because he no longer requires the ticket and it's more advantageous to him than a refund accept that that loophole has been closed.
 

Bletchleyite

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And if he can't provide such proof because the reason for requesting the changeover is because he no longer requires the ticket and it's more advantageous to him than a refund accept that that loophole has been closed.

Ah, didn't consider that the changeover might well be to something like the Lichfield gold card or similar.
 

marcouk2

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And if he can't provide such proof because the reason for requesting the changeover is because he no longer requires the ticket and it's more advantageous to him than a refund accept that that loophole has been closed.

What loophole? The legal conditions that the season ticket was bought under give him the right to an exchange, 41.1 makes no (non length of validity) qualification as to when a season ticket exchange can be refused.
 

WelshBluebird

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Strikes me as a bit odd that you'd need proof of work / home address change considering season tickets don't HAVE to be used on a commute (thinking of the cases where a weekly season ticket is cheaper than say two anytime returns, where someone may make that journey twice a week for purposes other than work - sure not a common scenario but I bet it happens somewhere to someone).
 

Dai Corner

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What loophole? The legal conditions that the season ticket was bought under give him the right to an exchange, 41.1 makes no (non length of validity) qualification as to when a season ticket exchange can be refused.

See 40.5 (quoted above). I think we're still trying to establish whether the ticket in question is a duplicate or a replacement.
 

James12345AA

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It is very important to know whether the ticket actually carried the word "Duplicate" on it, or the word "Replacement". I very strongly suspect the former and this is very relevant.

If this is the case, I suspect that the TOC are proceeding on the basis that it IS a duplicate. Whilst the entitlement to a changeover season is absolute, there is not an automatic entitlement to a refund from the original ticket when a duplicate has been issued. This is covered clearly by the NRCoT:

The TOC are requesting additional information as indicated in 40.5 above, supporting the possibility that they are treating the original ticket (that is, the ticket submitted for the changeover) as a duplicate. Condition 40.6 allows them (in my view) to back this up with a refusal of refund if they believe that the reason for changeover (and one has to be given on the request form) is fraudulent and the request has been made to obtain a refund to which there would otherwise be no entitlement.

My advice to James12345AA is to respond to the TOC with full information about the ticket and how the re-issued ticket was obtained. If it was a replacement that was incorrectly issued (and potentially recorded) as a duplicate there should still be a paper trail back to that as both transactions require paperwork to be completed and retained by the TOC with the original ticket retained in the case of a replacement (that obviously won't happen for a duplicate). If, however, this really was a duplicate then accept that the TOC are on to you and you won't be seeing a refund.

Thank you Haywain. This is an incredibly useful response.

To be clear, the original ticket was handed back to the original ticket office when the strip became damaged. The new ticket that I have been issued with states 'DUPLICATE'. Am I to understand that this was not correctly processed and should actually read 'REPLACEMENT'?

I will get in touch with the TOC immediately.
 

Haywain

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Thank you Haywain. This is an incredibly useful response.

To be clear, the original ticket was handed back to the original ticket office when the strip became damaged. The new ticket that I have been issued with states 'DUPLICATE'. Am I to understand that this was not correctly processed and should actually read 'REPLACEMENT'?

I will get in touch with the TOC immediately.
I think it is entirely safe to assume that the transaction to issue you with a working season ticket was carried incorrectly.

Are you applying for your changeover with the same TOC?
 

James12345AA

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I think it is entirely safe to assume that the transaction to issue you with a working season ticket was carried incorrectly.

Are you applying for your changeover with the same TOC?

That clearly complicates things then.

I am applying for a changeover with a different TOC.
 

James12345AA

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It is very important to know whether the ticket actually carried the word "Duplicate" on it, or the word "Replacement". I very strongly suspect the former and this is very relevant.

If this is the case, I suspect that the TOC are proceeding on the basis that it IS a duplicate. Whilst the entitlement to a changeover season is absolute, there is not an automatic entitlement to a refund from the original ticket when a duplicate has been issued. This is covered clearly by the NRCoT:

The TOC are requesting additional information as indicated in 40.5 above, supporting the possibility that they are treating the original ticket (that is, the ticket submitted for the changeover) as a duplicate. Condition 40.6 allows them (in my view) to back this up with a refusal of refund if they believe that the reason for changeover (and one has to be given on the request form) is fraudulent and the request has been made to obtain a refund to which there would otherwise be no entitlement.

My advice to James12345AA is to respond to the TOC with full information about the ticket and how the re-issued ticket was obtained. If it was a replacement that was incorrectly issued (and potentially recorded) as a duplicate there should still be a paper trail back to that as both transactions require paperwork to be completed and retained by the TOC with the original ticket retained in the case of a replacement (that obviously won't happen for a duplicate). If, however, this really was a duplicate then accept that the TOC are on to you and you won't be seeing a refund.

Haywain, I have just spotted that the ticket actually says both 'DUPLICATE' and 'REPLACEMENT'. The ticket is printed on Gold Card stock with watermark 'DUPLICATE ANNUAL Gold Card'. However, in the bottom right hand corner, printed in smaller black ink, is the word 'REPLACEMENT' followed by the time and date of printing.

Does this complicate things further?

I handed the original back for the sole reason that the magnetic strip was damaged and so I was not able to use the barriers.
 
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bb21

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That means it was issued correctly as a replacement but on the wrong ticket stock.
 

James12345AA

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That means it was issued correctly as a replacement but on the wrong ticket stock.

Interesting. So it seems to me that head office are possibly asking for proof because they have seen 'DUPLICATE' in large, bold letters and have assumed that the ticket is a duplicate.

I will write to make them to make them aware that it is actually a replacement and highlight the fact that it is on the wrong stock.
 

najaB

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I get that you don't need to prove anything, but is there any specific reason why you don't provide the info and be done with it?
 

Chris999999

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I don't understand why proof of residence or work is required. What if someone changing a season ticket provided evidence that their mother, psychiatrist, personal trainer, regular hooker, favourite restaurant etc were in the area? Would that be acceptable?
 

najaB

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I don't understand why proof of residence or work is required.
Apparently because it's been issued on duplicate ticket stock. Refunds and changeover of duplicate tickets always attracts additional scrutiny for reasons that should be apparent.
 

James12345AA

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I am concerned about the fact that my legitimate replacement has been issued on duplicate stock - and the implications for getting a changeover. Looking ahead, will there be proof on the TOCs system that it is in fact a replacement? Will the printed black writing in the bottom right corner make a difference?
 

Chris999999

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Apparently because it's been issued on duplicate ticket stock. Refunds and changeover of duplicate tickets always attracts additional scrutiny for reasons that should be apparent.
Yes I understand the additional scrutiny, but as I suggested there could be many alternative reasons for regularly travelling to a particular station and your reason may not be because you live or work there. A TOC should not be able to restrict the changeover to those 2 reasons. Any evidence of why you might travel on that route should be acceptable.
 

najaB

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A TOC should not be able to restrict the changeover to those 2 reasons. Any evidence of why you might travel on that route should be acceptable.
I don't believe you are limited to only those two reasons but, realistically speaking, the vast majority of long-period season tickets will have either home or work at one end on the journey. I don't think many people visit their favourite hooker often enough to make a season ticket good value.
 

Bletchleyite

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I don't believe you are limited to only those two reasons but, realistically speaking, the vast majority of long-period season tickets will have either home or work at one end on the journey. I don't think many people visit their favourite hooker often enough to make a season ticket good value.

Or they'll be from Lichfield City to Lichfield Trent Valley (or Hatton-Lapworth, I forget which is cheaper at the minute) and for Gold Card use only, i.e. there is no intention to ever make the journey on it.

OP - is that what you're doing? Some TOC staff don't like this and consider it fraud (it isn't, it's totally legitimate) - so they may be trying to make things awkward for you.
 

Haywain

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I am applying for a changeover with a different TOC.
That complicates things further, as the TOC you are now dealing with have no access to the season ticket records held by the TOC who issued the ticket.
Interesting. So it seems to me that head office are possibly asking for proof because they have seen 'DUPLICATE' in large, bold letters and have assumed that the ticket is a duplicate.

I will write to make them to make them aware that it is actually a replacement and highlight the fact that it is on the wrong stock.
I think this will be a good starting point, but you will need to be patient. It may help if you can ask them to contact you by phone so that you can clarify the situation verbally. Bear in mind that on the ticket they have two pieces of conflicting information and no way of establishing which of them is right/wrong.
I am concerned about the fact that my legitimate replacement has been issued on duplicate stock - and the implications for getting a changeover. Looking ahead, will there be proof on the TOCs system that it is in fact a replacement? Will the printed black writing in the bottom right corner make a difference?
This is an entirely legitimate concern. The TOC who issued the replacement ticket on the wrong ticket stock should have the ability to confirm what should have happened. The printed black writing in the bottom right corner would make that task somewhat easier, although if there records are as well organised as they were at the station I worked at it won't be a lot of help! A month's worth of paperwork chucked in a box file and rearranged every time someone wanted to look something up!

Do you have a copy of the ticket you submitted for changeover? If so, it may be helpful to contact the station who issued that ticket and ask them for a (certified/stamped) copy of the original ticket and the supporting paperwork so that you can provide them to the TOC processing the changeover. This, particularly the copy of your original surrendered ticket will confirm that your ticket was not a duplicate. I would hope that this would be acceptable to the TOC you are currently dealing with.

There is a lot appearing on this thread that will not be helpful to you, and I think that at present it will be most useful to concentrate on understanding the problem that the TOC is having and seeking to help them get to the right answer. I do not think that anything around where you live or work will achieve this at this stage as they are likely to be concentrating on whether or not they should be paying you the refund.

For the benefit of others reading this, I will point out that the issue of a duplicate season ticket always carries the risk that the original is still in circulation, and potentially in use. Where that duplicate goes to a different TOC to the one who issued it for some refund to be paid, the original ticket could also be still in use or working its way through the processes at the issuing TOC for a parallel refund. This isn't fantasy, it's something I have encountered more than once over the years.
 

James12345AA

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That complicates things further, as the TOC you are now dealing with have no access to the season ticket records held by the TOC who issued the ticket.

To be clear, the changeover is for a route operated by a different TOC, but I am applying for it with the same TOC that I purchased my season ticket from originally. So the head office that I am dealing with is for the TOC that I originally purchased the ticket from. Apologies for not making that clear.
 

Haywain

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To be clear, the changeover is for a route operated by a different TOC, but I am applying for it with the same TOC that I purchased my season ticket from originally. So the head office that I am dealing with is for the TOC that I originally purchased the ticket from. Apologies for not making that clear.
That's good news. It's always better to have just one TOC involved. Most of what I previously said still stands, it just makes the communications easier.
 

James12345AA

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That's good news. It's always better to have just one TOC involved. Most of what I previously said still stands, it just makes the communications easier.

That’s good to hear.

I’ve just been through my phone photos and discovered that the ticket I have submitted for changeover (the one on incorrect duplicate stock) is actually the second replacement. I have a photo of the first replacement (which was printed correctly on replacement stock) and the original purchase receipt. I’m still working on a photo of the original ticket.

Hopefully, with two replacements (the original and the first replacement), the ticket office will have at least one, if not both, on record!
 

causton

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That’s good to hear.

I’ve just been through my phone photos and discovered that the ticket I have submitted for changeover (the one on incorrect duplicate stock) is actually the second replacement. I have a photo of the first replacement (which was printed correctly on replacement stock) and the original purchase receipt. I’m still working on a photo of the original ticket.

Hopefully, with two replacements (the original and the first replacement), the ticket office will have at least one, if not both, on record!

Not sure if you will need any proof even. Surely at least someone knows what they are talking about and knows that a encode will print REPLACEMENT and a duplicate will print DUPLICATE in the small letters - so yours is definitely not a duplicate!
 

James12345AA

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Not sure if you will need any proof even. Surely at least someone knows what they are talking about and knows that a encode will print REPLACEMENT and a duplicate will print DUPLICATE in the small letters - so yours is definitely not a duplicate!

Oh for sure. But surely someone would have looked at the small black writing and not just the stock. I am assuming/hoping that the supervisor has simply seen ‘DUPLICATE’ on the stock and become suspicious. If not, and they have seen the black replacement writing, then this could get more complex still.
 
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