Abortion discussion

[Bromley boy]

What a peculiar thread this has turned into.

I think it’s clear certain posters know rather more about trains than they do about women, babies and relationships.

Babies described as “parasites”, WTF?

 

[DarloRich]

If one is really worried about getting a woman pregnant, an escort would be highly unlikely to stitch you up for child maintenance. First of all, escorts are highly likely to use the pill and insist on condoms at the same time, but even if all else failed, she wouldn't know which partner is responsible.

what on earth are you talking about? With respect I am not sure you understand what a mature sexual relationship actually is.

I think it’s clear certain posters know rather more about trains than they do about women, babies and relationships.

Indeed - I wonder if knowledge of the ways of the world may be limited.

The solution is this: the man pays his share for the child he has fathered. Preferably, he remains in the child’s life. The father doesn’t have to remain with the mother, but he should take every step to be present for the child, provide a proper male role model, pay his share towards the child’s expenses, and make sacrifices like a Dad should.

Every time you have sex with a woman of child bearing potential you risk fathering a child. Even if she’s on the pill, or has a coil, or you use a condom. Don’t want to risk getting a woman pregnant? Don’t shag her. That’s the deal.

never have truer words been spoken.

On absent fathers not all are absent by choice although there are many "dead beat dads". The court system is still not fair and equal. I know someone who has spent thousands and thousands on legal fees to try and get access to his son. It wasn't a planned conception ( and he didn't stay with the mother and their separation was not amicable) but he wants to play his part and honour his responsibilities. He seems to be blocked at all turns by the courts who seem to believe entirely the word of the mother.

 

[Bromley boy]

On absent fathers not all are absent by choice although there are many "dead beat dads". The court system is still not fair and equal. I know someone who has spent thousands and thousands on legal fees to try and get access to his son. It wasn't a planned conception ( and he didn't stay with the mother and their separation was not amicable) but he wants to play his part and honour his responsibilities. He seems to be blocked at all turns by the courts who seem to believe entirely the word of the mother.

Appalling.

Any self respecting mother should be a big enough person to put personal feelings aside and respect her child’s right to a relationship with their father*. It seems the legal system in this country lets a lot of dads down in that regard.

*barring violence, sexual abuse or similar obviously.

 

[radamfi]

what on earth are you talking about? With respect I am not sure you understand what a mature sexual relationship actually is.

People can have sex for all kinds of reasons, including self-gratification in return for money. It doesn't necessarily have to be part of a long term partership.

 

[DarloRich]

Appalling.

Any self respecting mother should be a big enough person to put personal feelings aside and respect her child’s right to a relationship with their father*. It seems the legal system in this country lets a lot of dads down in that regard.

*barring violence, sexual abuse or similar obviously.

the separation was unpleasant, he cheated , she made accusations of poor behaviour etc etc.

People can have sex for all kinds of reasons, including self-gratification in return for money. It doesn't necessarily have to be part of a long term partership.

While that may be correct (in very limited numbers) I feel your view of the world has a particular filter. I stand by my statement earlier that you do not understand what a mature sexual relationship actually is. Perhaps you have not been lucky enough to experience such a relationship and to experience the fulfillment it can bring.

 

[Bromley boy]

the separation was unpleasant, he cheated , she made accusations of poor behaviour etc etc.

I can imagine.

Sometimes what these people forget is that eventually their children will grow into adults themselves. Then they will most likely find themselves having to justify their behaviour to them.

 

[Darandio]

What a peculiar thread this has turned into.

I think it’s clear certain posters know rather more about trains than they do about women, babies and relationships.

Babies described as “parasites”, WTF?

Indeed, I really cannot believe what i've read in the last 5 minutes or so, I deliberately avoided the thread because I kind of suspected it.

There are times when certain posters really need to stick to the threads they think they know best, livery froth, clag and the like.

 

[Darandio]

I'll have to expand, even though it's the main reason I completely avoided the thread in the first place and I didn't want to go there, i've even had second and third thoughts about posting this. Having read the thread again though, there seems to be a complete lack of understanding from some who have contributed to the thread and I suspect along with others that these people have no experience whatsoever yet can't help themselves but reply to a thread about something they cannot even begin to comprehend.

Around six years ago we came very close. We found out she was pregant with what would be our third child, it was completely unplanned. Although finance was an issue, it's really hard to look back and understand the reasons we were making for not having the child. At her insistence, I was fully involved at every step although I really just wanted to make her own decision, looking back I seem enormously selfish. We only got as far one initial appointment with the GP where the discussion really brought it home, we couldn't do it and it's the best thing we could ever have done.

He's five now and whenever this discussion appears in the media, or here in this case, it comes back. People often talk about the regret after doing it, or people only think that the emotion really comes if you go through with it, it goes both ways. I feel regret that we even thought about doing it, at times I feel like a really bad person, especially when I look at him and think we might have taken it all away. God only knows how she feels, it's not a discussion I want to have at this moment, if ever.

After he was born I went and had the non scalpel procedure, there was no way on earth I was going to even offer up the risk of it happening again, accidents do happen.

 

[Bromley boy]

I'll have to expand, even though it's the main reason I completely avoided the thread in the first place and I didn't want to go there, i've even had second and third thoughts about posting this. Having read the thread again though, there seems to be a complete lack of understanding from some who have contributed to the thread and I suspect along with others that these people have no experience whatsoever yet can't help themselves but reply to a thread about something they cannot even begin to comprehend.

Around six years ago we came very close. We found out she was pregant with what would be our third child, it was completely unplanned. Although finance was an issue, it's really hard to look back and understand the reasons we were making for not having the child. At her insistence, I was fully involved at every step although I really just wanted to make her own decision, looking back I seem enormously selfish. We only got as far one initial appointment with the GP where the discussion really brought it home, we couldn't do it and it's the best thing we could ever have done.

He's five now and whenever this discussion appears in the media, or here in this case, it comes back. People often talk about the regret after doing it, or people only think that the emotion really comes if you go through with it, it goes both ways. I feel regret that we even thought about doing it, at times I feel like a really bad person, especially when I look at him and think we might have taken it all away. God only knows how she feels, it's not a discussion I want to have at this moment, if ever.

After he was born I went and had the non scalpel procedure, there was no way on earth I was going to even offer up the risk of it happening again, accidents do happen.

An excellent post.

 

[radamfi]

While that may be correct (in very limited numbers) I feel your view of the world has a particular filter. I stand by my statement earlier that you do not understand what a mature sexual relationship actually is. Perhaps you have not been lucky enough to experience such a relationship and to experience the fulfillment it can bring.

I thought we are in the era of diversity, and we are supposed to respect people's life choices? Not everybody subscribes to the traditional route of

dating -> marriage -> kids

optionally followed by one or more iterations of

-> divorce -> dating -> marriage -> kids

Most people nevertheless still have sexual desires that need to be satisfied one way or another. Casual relationships are as valid as any other, as long as safety is observed and individual personal boundaries are respected.

Asexuals may be the luckiest people around, as they can form friendships/relationships based entirely on how much they enjoy the other person's company, rather than how sexually attractive the other person is.

 

[DarloRich]

I thought we are in the era of diversity, and we are supposed to respect people's life choices? Not everybody subscribes to the traditional route of

dating -> marriage -> kids

optionally followed by one or more iterations of

-> divorce -> dating -> marriage -> kids

Most people nevertheless still have sexual desires that need to be satisfied one way or another. Casual relationships are as valid as any other, as long as safety is observed and individual personal boundaries are respected.

Asexuals may be the luckiest people around, as they can form friendships/relationships based entirely on how much they enjoy the other person's company, rather than how sexually attractive the other person is.

I think you are a very confused individual. For instance, I have many friends who are women. I don't want to sleep with them. Well not all of them I will also point out that I am not married (nor do I ever expect to be married), do not have kids ( it is highly unlikely we could sadly) and have had both casual relationships and long term relationships. It isn't pick one and stick with it.

 

[radamfi]

I think you are a very confused individual. For instance, I have many friends who are women. I don't want to sleep with them. Well not all of them I will also point out that I am not married (nor do I ever expect to be married), do not have kids ( it is highly unlikely we could sadly) and have had both casual relationships and long term relationships. It isn't pick one and stick with it.

If you're cool with casual relationships, why do you persist in personally criticising/insulting me over several consecutive posts?

 

[DarloRich]

If you're cool with casual relationships, why do you persist in personally criticising/insulting me over several consecutive posts?

I have done nothing of the sort - I have simply disagreed with you and challenged your position.

 

[radamfi]

I have done nothing of the sort - I have simply disagreed with you and challenged your position.

"I think you are a very confused individual"
"Perhaps you have not been lucky enough to experience such a relationship and to experience the fulfillment it can bring."
"I am also not sure you really understand how sexual relationships work."

I'm pretty sure most people would consider those remarks quite personal. I haven't said anything like that about you.

 

[DarloRich]

"I think you are a very confused individual"
"Perhaps you have not been lucky enough to experience such a relationship and to experience the fulfillment it can bring."
"I am also not sure you really understand how sexual relationships work."

I'm pretty sure most people would consider those remarks quite personal. I haven't said anything like that about you.

That is my view of your position based upon your postings. You seem to be happy to express a view but not face any challenge. That is a common stance here.

 

[radamfi]

That is my view of your position based upon your postings. You seem to be happy to express a view but not face any challenge. That is a common stance here.

You are of course welcome to express a contrary view, and you have succeeded in doing so, but surely there's no need to be personal at the same time?

 

[Harbornite]

I have many friends who are women. I don't want to sleep with them

BS

 

[Harbornite]

My views on the matter are pretty simple: abortion is obviously unpleasant and should be a last minute resort, but having it outlawed does not suddenly kill off demand; women would use dangerous backstreet clinics or other alternatives. Therefore, legalising and regulating it is simply the best option.

As for men who are opposed to this, they should try imagining how it feels to to be unwillingly impregnated, e.g. if contraception fails or if raped.

 

[Harbornite]

Is this a subject for a railway forum?

Is this really a subject for a railway forum?

Seems you aren't aware of what the general discussion section is about. The clue's in the name.

 

[Bromley boy]

Asexuals may be the luckiest people around, as they can form friendships/relationships based entirely on how much they enjoy the other person's company

This seems an unusual position to take.

Do you therefore believe hetero/bi/homosexual people cannot form platonic friendships?

As a heterosexual male I have a number of female friends I have absolutely no sexual interest in.

 

[Harbornite]

[QUOTE="radamfi, post: 3485040, member: 4979]

Asexuals may be the luckiest people around, as they can form friendships/relationships based entirely on how much they enjoy the other person's company, rather than how sexually attractive the other person is.[/QUOTE]

So can everyone else...

 

[Bromley boy]

My views on the matter are pretty simple: abortion is obviously unpleasant and should be a last minute resort, but having it outlawed does not suddenly kill off demand; women would use dangerous backstreet clinics or other alternatives. Therefore, legalising and regulating it is simply the best option.

As for men who are opposed to this, they should try imagining how it feels to to be unwillingly impregnated, e.g. if contraception fails or if raped.

Agreed it should be legal and available. I’m sure we would all agree it must be available in situations such as rape, or where carrying the baby to term would cause risk to the mother’s life.

I guess the more complex problem of regulating it is the next question. Just how available should it be? Should it be available to all on demand, without question, or should it be restricted in certain circumstances?

As per my earlier post personally I’m a little uncomfortable with it being freely available in some situations. For instance: a disabled child who could have a meaningful and fulfilling life (Downs babies spring to mind); late abortion (baby could survive if born at this point); baby of the “wrong” sex; women who have had several abortions before.

It’s difficult to have a sensible discussion on the topic as it seems that it is now a womens’ rights/female empowerment issue over and above any discussion of the rights we might consider unborn children to have.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

As a heterosexual male I have a number of female friends I have absolutely no sexual interest in.

Let's be honest though, isn't it reasonable to assume many hetero men who are friends with women are in such a position because it was the best they would get out of it? If someone isn't interested but insists on being just friends, I imagine some pretenders would probably want to bide their time with a woman and hope that one day he can make his move, a day that probably will never come for him. I don't particularly think that's something a man should do even. If she isn't interested then there's no point being friends unless you genuinely want to.

Pretending to be a friend just to eventually get into their pants is just a waste of time, and in my opinion it is an act of dishonesty driven by a deeper selfish desire. Nobody really benefits from such a friendship since neither wanted to even be friends in the first place. The woman just didn't want to seem mean when rejecting him, and the man just wants to wait for the day he can make his moves. If I'm honest I think men like you are lucky to be able to form such friendships.

I guess the more complex problem of regulating it is the next question. Just how available should it be? Should it be available to all on demand, without question, should it be restricted in certain circumstances?

This is a very serious issue that Ireland could do with discussing at this point. Such is the act of having an abortion that it's not something to be taken lightly. As I've said before, accidents happen, and if it's a scenario where it is a genuine first time accident then the doctor could decide if it's reasonable. Of course if after several times there's still unwanted babies, they should really just stop doing it so much or take proper precautions because of how much tax money or medical funds will be going towards abortions. It should be a case-by-case basis to be discussed with doctors in my opinion.

 

[RichmondCommu]

No they should not. If you get a woman pregnant you're the father so step up to the plate chap and be a dad. All babies deserve active, involved and supportive fathers. Don't want fatherhood responsibilities? Don't have sex.

Alternatively have sex but make sure you use a contraceptive! Speaking as a GP the risk is minimal.

 

[Warwick]

What a peculiar thread this has turned into.

I think it’s clear certain posters know rather more about trains than they do about women, babies and relationships.

Babies described as “parasites”, WTF?

You must realise that many on here are somewhat immature in years.

 

[Bromley boy]

Alternatively have sex but make sure you use a contraceptive! Speaking as a GP the risk is minimal.

But the overall point that poster was making is correct: if the contraceptive fails, the resulting pregnancy is still the responsibility of the man involved, as it should be.

Low risk doesn’t = no risk!

 

[RichmondCommu]

But the overall point that poster was making is correct: if the contraceptive fails, the resulting pregnancy is still the responsibility of the man involved, as it should be.

Low risk doesn’t = no risk!

Oh absolutely but providing a condom is used correctly (including storing it correctly) and birth control is employed people should not be put off from having sex, which is what I'd assumed AlterEgo was suggesting.

 

[Bromley boy]

Let's be honest though, isn't it reasonable to assume many hetero men who are friends with women are in such a position because it was the best they would get out of it? If someone isn't interested but insists on being just friends, I imagine some pretenders would probably want to bide their time with a woman and hope that one day he can make his move, a day that probably will never come for him. I don't particularly think that's something a man should do even. If she isn't interested then there's no point being friends unless you genuinely want to.

Pretending to be a friend just to eventually get into their pants is just a waste of time, and in my opinion it is an act of dishonesty driven by a deeper selfish desire. Nobody really benefits from such a friendship since neither wanted to even be friends in the first place. The woman just didn't want to seem mean when rejecting him, and the man just wants to wait for the day he can make his moves. If I'm honest I think men like you are lucky to be able to form such friendships.

Based on my own experience, no, I don’t think that is reasonable.

In my view friendship should be based on getting on, shared experiences, shared interests, a mutually similar outlook etc. - a gelling of personalities. That’s exaxtly the same for all of my friends irrespective of their sex.

Indeed, I don’t think any of my 30 something, mature, confident female friends I’ve known since my university days would be friends with a man who they knew fancied them, but were too polite to reject. It wouldn’t happen. They would simply say “no, not interested” and swiftly call the police if that person refused to take “no” for an answer!

This is a very serious issue that Ireland could do with discussing at this point. Such is the act of having an abortion that it's not something to be taken lightly. As I've said before, accidents happen, and if it's a scenario where it is a genuine first time accident then the doctor could decide if it's reasonable. Of course if after several times there's still unwanted babies, they should really just stop doing it so much or take proper precautions because of how much tax money or medical funds will be going towards abortions. It should be a case-by-case basis to be discussed with doctors in my opinion.

As you rightly say these are questions that need to be discussed. I fear, amidst all the jubilation about Ireland’s referendum result, these complex moral issues aren’t being considered at all. Abortion is now seen as a womens’ rights issue, primarily.

These moral questions certainly aren’t a matter for doctors to adjudicate on*, their role is purely medical. These are wider moral issues for society as a whole to consider.

*other than in situations where carrying a child to term may risk the mother’s life due to medical complications, of course.

 

[Bromley boy]

Oh absolutely but providing a condom is used correctly (including storing it correctly) and birth control is employed people should not be put off from having sex, which is what I'd assumed AlterEgo was suggesting.

Far be it to me to speak for @AlterEgo who will no doubt answer for himself.

My reading of his viewpoint was that, in the (admittedly very unlikely) scenario that contraception fails, it shouldn’t be an option for men to shirk all responsibility if a pregnancy results. That’s view I would agree with. He wasn’t suggesting that people shouldn’t have sex at all.

As you quite rightly say this simply isn’t an issue for the vast majority of couples, where contraception is used properly, but accidental pregnancies can and do happen on occasion.

That’s certainly no reason to abstain from (responsible) sexual activity!

 

[fowler9]

I agree with a right to choose but not using abortion as a form of contraception. It is so complicated.