Given discussions that have happened elsewhere, what are people's views on if the 80x's are likely to be extended in length (either to create more 9 coach versions or to extend the 9 coach versions to 10 coaches) as part of the next GWR franchise?
it does seem daft to have permanently coupled 2x5 car sets which require two sets of guard and catering staff, plus the fact that 5 car sets don't have a buffet, just a trolley
I don't think much of the IETs, but that is because of the poor quality internal fit out.
Too short, not enough seats at tables, no buffet. A short DMU without through gangways and with no buffet simply does not feel like an intercity train.
From a technical/mechanical point of view they are not bad IMHO.
I would support building more vehicles to lengthen existing sets.
I can see the merit of a few half length trains for portion working and lightly used services, but feel that the present numbers of short units are excessive.
Consideration should be given to increasing all the 9 car sets to 10 car, and also increasing some of the 5 car to 10 car.
Building extra vehicles should be cheaper since all the research and development has been done.
Extra non driving cars represent much better value in terms of cost per seat, since they contain more passenger space and should be cheaper to build, being simpler.
A 10 car train could even have a buffet car ! put it in the middle of the standard class section so that no standard class passenger has to walk too far to use it. Something with a central buffet counter and seating each end.
Significant numbers of longer distance commuters would I suspect CHOOSE to stand in the buffet car if in convivial company and enjoying a drink, as they would in a public house.
With a decent size buffet, it should be possible to provide about 40 longitudinal seats and standing space for another 50, with plenty of grab rails and small tables.
This would be popular, and people CHOOSING to stand would add useful capacity. And anyone who does not like it still has the choice of the other vehicles.
This has been stated as the intention, but is there any point? 5 cars for Cardiff Central to Swansea? 5 cars for the peak Bristol Temple Meads to Taunton extensions? 5 cars for Plymouth to Penzance? How many services of each are really so quiet that 5 car is suitable? Only a handful. 5 cars are suitable for services west of Worcester or off peak services west of Oxford, but more common seems a 5 car throughout on that route (I caught the 1622 from London Paddington not long ago, 5 car and full and standing until Reading. Very unpleasant).Isn't the intention that the 5-car sets won't be permanently coupled but will all portion work?
Significant numbers of longer distance commuters would I suspect CHOOSE to stand in the buffet car if in convivial company and enjoying a drink, as they would in a public house.
Yes there should definitely be an option to purchase more trailer vehicles to add to the 5-car units.
This is set to become the Voyager saga all over again, they just never learn!
New trains are always too short. Law of nature once the DfT is involved. Pendolinos, the crowded 185s, Voyagers, there must be others. The new Northern and TPE trains will bear me out.
New trains are always too short. Law of nature once the DfT is involved. Pendolinos, the crowded 185s, Voyagers, there must be others. The new Northern and TPE trains will bear me out.
I cannot agree with this many lessons have been learned since privatisation, when I used to travel between Cheshire and Birmingham under BR it was a 7\8 coach train hauled by a Class 86. Now it is normally a 4 car diesel unit despite the route having the wires up. I hope we do not return to the awful days of BR I enjoy standing on the Class 220.
What did the government do to reduce the size of the Voyager order? Virgin's original specification was for a squadron fleet of 4-car trains (Non-tilting push-pull loco-hauled and tilting DEMUs) in numbers identical to those subsequently ordered with the Voyager programme, at which point the tilting fleet had been upped to a 5-car length.I would point out that early on in the privatisation era the trains were too short, mostly due to the government reducing the size of the order (happened with both the 185's and Voyagers).
Isn't the intention that the 5-car sets won't be permanently coupled but will all portion work?
This has been stated as the intention, but is there any point? 5 cars for Cardiff Central to Swansea? 5 cars for the peak Bristol Temple Meads to Taunton extensions? 5 cars for Plymouth to Penzance? How many services of each are really so quiet that 5 car is suitable? Only a handful. 5 cars are suitable for services west of Worcester or off peak services west of Oxford, but more common seems a 5 car throughout on that route (I caught the 1622 from London Paddington not long ago, 5 car and full and standing until Reading. Very unpleasant).
Some other ideas might bear fruit, like detaching a portion at Swindon to go to Cheltenham Spa while the rest of the train continues elsewhere - I do not know if that is planned though.
No there should not be any IETs; we have got enough Voyagers to cope with. They should either be all electric or nothing at all. It would have been cheaper and easier to just convert the Mk3's for PRM (Person Reduced Mobility) mods.Given discussions that have happened elsewhere, what are people's views on if the 80x's are likely to be extended in length (either to create more 9 coach versions or to extend the 9 coach versions to 10 coaches) as part of the next GWR franchise?
1) Requiring them to be all electric means a very large and very sudden program of electrification, which is a recipe for massive overruns in cost and time (à la GWEP)No there should not be any (Super Hitachi Inter-City Trains) we have got enough Voyagers to cope with. They should either be all electric or nothing at all. It would have been cheaper and easier to just convert the MK3's for PRM (Person Reduced Mobility) mods.
When you say the MK3's aren't as good a ride that depends on what good a job they do with refitting and what seating layout they could redo. I understand that Wabtec are doing a crap job of time. But they should have just put wires up all the way but that's now too late says the DFT in the infant wisdom.1) Requiring them to be all electric means a very large and very sudden program of electrification, which is a recipe for massive overruns in cost and time (à la GWEP)
2) Given Wabtecs glacial pace for their MK3 program, I'd strongly disagree that upgrading mk3s would be easier (and it is worth noting that mk3s aren't that good a ride compared to more modern stock)
The argument that their similarities to Voyagers are negligible has already been laid out in detail above, though this post succinctly sums it up:No there should not be any (Super Hitachi Inter-City Trains) we have got enough Voyagers to cope with.
- - - - -Other than unlike the Voyagers there's more coaches already been ordered than they replaced, the coaches generally have a higher capacity, mostly the 5 coach units run in pairs and the specification for the IEP basically said "not a Voyager or any of the faults with them".
I'm not completely sold on the bi-mode concept where a more comprehensive programme of electrification would be feasible, but if these units weren't bi-mode then with the delays to the Great Western electrification we'd be in one hell of a mess right now.They should either be all electric or nothing at all.
Seriously? Only ONE rake of four modified carriages has so far been delivered to GWR since the first (XC) HST set went in for PRM mods fourteen months ago, while nearly the full fleet of 36 x 5-car (Pre-series trains 800001/002 still completing fitting out) IETs has been delivered to GWR within the same time frame, with deliveries of the 9-car sets now underway. How do you envisage that over fifty full-length HST sets would be modified ahead of the 01/01/2020 deadline? It simply couldn't be done.It would have been cheaper and easier to just convert the MK3's for PRM (Person Reduced Mobility) mods.
I don't mean right this very moment lets start the mods I mean I should have been done from the very start of the new franchise but the DFT stopped them from doing that. The modernisation of the GWML is still no going to happen as they cant wire because of a Grade 2 listed bridge it wouldn't impact if it was still HST.Seriously? Only ONE rake of four modified carriages has so far been delivered to GWR since the first (XC) HST set went in for PRM mods fourteen months ago, while nearly the full fleet of 36 x 5-car (Pre-series trains 800001/002 still completing fitting out) IETs has been delivered to GWR within the same time frame, with deliveries of the 9-car sets now underway. How do you envisage that over fifty full-length HST sets would be modified ahead of the 01/01/2020 deadline? It simply couldn't be done.
Not to mention that retaining HST sets would do nothing to increase capacity and reliability or provide readiness for ETCS, and would leave GWR operating 40 year old stock that would still need replacing in 10-15 years time.
By insisting on electric only stock or modifying the HST fleet, I would suggest you would set back "modernisation" of the GWML by at least three years compared to the reality, and do nothing to increase capacity.
If you're going to electrify at the same time as the current inter-city fleet is reaching 40 years old and is operating at capacity on busy services, it makes perfect sense to order a new fleet of trains with more seats to go with it. Rather than muddling through with a piecemeal refurbishment of existing stock, when you can instead deliver all the benefits in one go with a new fleet.I don't mean right this very moment lets start the mods I mean I should have been done from the very start of the new franchise but the DFT stopped them from doing that.
The modernisation of the GWML IS happening and is well underway: They're receiving an entirely brand new fleet of trains for inter-city services (And for Thames Valley main line suburban services), and electrification as far as Bristol Parkway and subsequently Cardiff. The failure to electrify to Oxford or Temple Meads at this stage is frustrating, to say the least, but at least they still see the benefits of new trains.The modernisation of the GWML is still no going to happen as they cant wire because of a Grade 2 listed bridge it wouldn't impact if it was still HST.
But that new fleet are not even performing as they should have been so its still a 'muddle of pies'. And with leaving passengers and half a trains length that's not exactly new just an annoyance to every commuter. The modernisation of wires as you say isn't going that quickly as there are no wires up after Wantage Rd and no wires where grade 2 listed bridge is before Swindon and with cheap wires they will just fall of in the wind.If you're going to electrify at the same time as the current inter-city fleet is reaching 40 years old and is operating at capacity on busy services, it makes perfect sense to order a new fleet of trains with more seats to go with it. Not muddling through with a piecemeal refurbishment of existing stock when you can deliver all the benefits in one go with a new fleet.
Teething troubles are regrettable but not unusual with new train fleets, especially when the new fleet is only partially delivered and fitters and technicians are still getting to grips with practical day to day management of the fleet. The reliability targets that Agility Trains are required to meet are stringent and I don't doubt that they will begin to achieve them as the new service beds in. Plus as I understand it a fair proportion of the 5-car operations have been the result of staffing issues, rather than faults with the trains themselves.But that new fleet are not even performing as they should have been so its still a 'muddle of pies'. And with leaving passengers and half a trains length that's not exactly new just an annoyance to every commuter. The modernisation of wires as you say isn't going that quickly as there are no wires up after Wantage Rd and no wires where grade 2 listed bridge is before Swindon and with cheap wires they will just fall of in the wind.
But that new fleet are not even performing as they should have been so its still a 'muddle of pies'. And with leaving passengers and half a trains length that's not exactly new just an annoyance to every commuter. The modernisation of wires as you say isn't going that quickly as there are no wires up after Wantage Rd and no wires where grade 2 listed bridge is before Swindon and with cheap wires they will just fall of in the wind.
And apparently the ones being used for GWR and ASR are the 'good' ones.Seriously? Only ONE rake of four modified carriages has so far been delivered to GWR since the first (XC) HST set went in for PRM mods fourteen months ago, while nearly the full fleet of 36 x 5-car (Pre-series trains 800001/002 still completing fitting out) IETs has been delivered to GWR within the same time frame, with deliveries of the 9-car sets now underway. How do you envisage that over fifty full-length HST sets would be modified ahead of the 01/01/2020 deadline? It simply couldn't be done.