Lifts and escalators

[DynamicSpirit]

On a related note, I wonder how power consumption compares between a conventional life and a paternoster? On the one hand, a paternoster runs all the time - all compartments moving even if hardly anyone or noone at all is actually using it. On the other hand it doesn't have the starting/stopping of a conventional lift, and presumably a paternoster can take advantage of one side going down as the other side goes up, so only needs enough power to overcome friction - whereas a single lift going up needs a huge amount of energy to overcome gravity (Is it technologically feasible to feed that back into the grid when the lift goes down?).

 

[Peter Mugridge]

A conventional lift has a counterweight; presumably that serves pretty much the same purpose so there won't be a huge difference between the energy consumption of each type?

 

[AY1975]

In that Sheffield University Arts Tower video the lady who was wearing a white jumper and who waved goodbye when she boarded the lift went 'over the top'!

LOL

I can see why no new examples of these are allowed. But there is something appealing in a lift service where you never have to wait for more than a few seconds before it arrives.

Simon

I think the authorities don't generally like people going "over the top" (or "under the bottom"), and there are usually signs asking you not to. In fact, I believe that staying in past the top floor or the ground floor can cause the lift mechanism to fail, and then you'd be trapped and have to be rescued by the Fire Brigade if you got stuck in the space beyond the top or bottom. Nonetheless, there are people who will do it out of curiosity (partly to see if it turns you upside down, but it doesn't!).

There are quite a lot of other surviving paternosters in mainland Europe (especially in Germany). You can find footage of several of them on YouTube.

 

[AY1975]

Most of the remaining paternosters nowadays tend to be in buildings that are not open to, or at least not frequented by, the general public (such as office blocks and university buildings). I suppose the thinking is that regular users of such buildings are more likely to be used to using them.

And even if the buildings themselves are open to the public, the paternosters are often in a partitioned off or barricaded off area to prevent unauthorised use. At Frankfurt university, staff and students have to have a permit called a Paternoster-Führerschein (literally a Paternoster driving licence!) to use it, and it's permanently manned when in operation to check everyone's permits (see www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFikKlHHCbw).

Probably one of the world's last remaining paternosters that is officially open for public use, is in a clothes shop in Berne, Switzerland. See www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HO-kMSyues

 

[AY1975]

Obviously this is hypothetical as new paternoster installations have been illegal for many years, and AFAIK Sheffield University Arts Tower is the tallest building in the world with a working paternoster (20 floors including the ground and lower ground floor), but I wonder if a paternoster could have worked in, say, a 50 or 100 storey building?

Also, does anyone know of any buildings taller than Sheffield University Arts Tower anywhere in the world that have ever had paternosters?

 

[AY1975]

There is a list of surviving paternosters (in German) at www.flemming-hamburg.de/patlist.htm

"Liste laufender Paternoster" means list of operational paternosters. The list of countries is at the top of the page. Grossbritannien is Great Britain, Deutschland is Germany. Disused paternosters are highlighted in grey. If it says "Nicht öffentlich zugänglich" in red this means not accessible to the public. "Nur für Personal" means for staff use only. If it says "Frei zugänglich" in green this means it is freely accessible, "für angemeldete Besucher zugänglich" means accessible to visitors with appointments or who have signed in.

 

[mark-h]

I wonder if a paternoster could have worked in, say, a 50 or 100 storey building?

It would have to travel at a speed which users could enter and leave the cars safely- for a high building this would make journey times very long compared to a regular lift which can travel at higher speeds between floors.

 

[Martin2012]

There is a lift in the school I used to work in. It was only for use by staff or pupils with mobility difficulties and for moving heavy things and authorised users were issued with the requisite key.

Some children had somehow got hold of a key and spent some time riding up and down. After too many had crammed in it stopped between floors, trapping them.

For some reason it took quite a while for anyone to hear their calls for help and when the lift engineer was called he was told not to rush. The Headmaster greeted them on their release an hour or two later.

There was no unauthorised use after that.

There is a lift in the school I used to work in. It was only for use by staff or pupils with mobility difficulties and for moving heavy things and authorised users were issued with the requisite key.

Some children had somehow got hold of a key and spent some time riding up and down. After too many had crammed in it stopped between floors, trapping them.

For some reason it took quite a while for anyone to hear their calls for help and when the lift engineer was called he was told not to rush. The Headmaster greeted them on their release an hour or two later.

There was no unauthorised use after that.

Have only just spotted this post.

The secondary school I used to attend had a lift which was only for use by disabled pupils. However it was not key/pass controlled meaning it was free for anyone to use.

In contrast I've been to at least 3 colleges where the lifts have been restricted to key/cardholders only and another where at one time there were notices stating the lifts were for wheelchair users and staff only but this got replaced with a notice asking for the lifts to be kept free for those who need them.

I can see why there may need to be restrictions in somewhere like a school but do you think in Further Educational establishments such as colleges use of the lifts should be restricted?

 

[Dai Corner]

Have only just spotted this post.

The secondary school I used to attend had a lift which was only for use by disabled pupils. However it was not key/pass controlled meaning it was free for anyone to use.

In contrast I've been to at least 3 colleges where the lifts have been restricted to key/cardholders only and another where at one time there were notices stating the lifts were for wheelchair users and staff only but this got replaced with a notice asking for the lifts to be kept free for those who need them.

I can see why there may need to be restrictions in somewhere like a school but do you think in Further Educational establishments such as colleges use of the lifts should be restricted?

Most if not all of those involved were sixth formers so they could easily have been going to an FE college rather than staying on at school. Whether that would have made any difference to their behaviour I don't know.

 

[Martin2012]

Rather shocking to hear that. You'd think by that age people would know that messing about like that is not acceptable behaviour.

 

[ShwervinMervin]

Last time I was in the ASDA in Hamilton Palace, the handrail of the up escalator was moving faster than the treads, something I didn't think that was possible. Maybe it was "topple a pensioner" week.

Topshop in Brighton. Left hand side completely faster...

 

[Malcmal]

Here is a paternoster accident that doesn't directly involve a human - rather a ladder. Very interesting to see how the ladder is destroyed before the system shuts down.

 

[button_boxer]

It would have to travel at a speed which users could enter and leave the cars safely- for a high building this would make journey times very long compared to a regular lift which can travel at higher speeds between floors.

I'm not sure if they're still there but I definitely remember in previous years seeing signs in the Sheffield Arts Tower explaining how at peak times the standard lifts would run with an attendant and only stop on certain floors, the intention being that you'd take the express left to near your target floor and then the paternoster at most a couple of floors up or down from there. For taller buildings you'd have to run a similar system, maybe even have it so the express lifts don't even have doors on every floor (you still need at least one regular lift that can visit any floor, for loads that can't be taken on the paternoster).

 

[AY1975]

Here is a paternoster accident that doesn't directly involve a human - rather a ladder. Very interesting to see how the ladder is destroyed before the system shuts down.

Yes, and here's a clip of The Gentlemen band performing on board the Sheffield University arts tower paternoster: www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FjEgWtcm_g

 

[AY1975]

I had no idea that any paternoster lifts remained in the UK.
I was under the impression that they had been prohibited, not just a prohibition on new installations but requiring that old ones be taken out of use.

Until I came across this thread, I had no idea that they had ever existed in the UK. I knew that they had them in parts of mainland Europe, especially Germany, though.

 

[AY1975]

According to Wikipedia, Hitachi has developed a modern day successor to the paternoster, with doors and computer-controlled lift cabins. AFAIK so far the concept has yet to catch on at least in Britain or mainland Europe, though. Imagine going over the top or round the bottom on one of those! See

 

[DynamicSpirit]

It's interesting. I can certainly see the advantages of that over an ordinary lift, and the safety advantages compared to an old-style paternoster. I'm guessing the capacity would typically be a bit less than a paternoster, but a lot more than two lifts occupying the same space.

I see a couple of minor disadvantages: Most obviously, the risk of lifts having to stop even when noone wants to get on or off because they are just behind another lift that has stopped. In particular, the system of two lifts being connected on opposite sides of the circuit mean that as soon as a lift stops, its partner would also have to stop even if noone wants to get on or off the partner.

The system would also impose constraints on floor heights, due to the need for a lift and its partner to both become level with a floor simultaneously. So you'd need spacing between floors to always be absolutely even: Probably not much of an issue in a modern building that's been planned around the new lift system, but could make it hard to retro-fit in many existing buildings.

 

[eMeS]

I joined a well known electronics/automation company in Borehamwood in 1962, and a Paternoster lift was installed when a new multi-storey building was added around 1970. It was very similar to that shown in the YouTube clip, and very occasionally some wags would go over the top, and whilst out of sight would change to a hand-stand position. Much more fun was the goods lift which could be stopped between floors, and one or two couples were fired for "inappropriate" behaviour - and this was decades before closed circuit TV was everywhere. The site has now been redeveloped so all the lifts etc. have gone.

 

[AY1975]

Here's a really amusing clip of a paternoster in Munich, in what appears to be a university building:

For those of you who don't know German, the caption "Was auch immer sie Dir erzählen, glaub ihnen kein Wort" translates as don't believe a word they always tell you.

 

[AY1975]

Apparently the paternoster in the library at the University of Essex in Colchester is being refurbished and is due to reopen in time for the start of the 2020/21 academic year. There are updates on progress with the project on the university website at https://library.essex.ac.uk/c.php?g=676111&p=4815036

I knew that there had been one at Essex University library, but I thought it had been taken out of use for good like the one at Leicester. So that means there are at least two surviving paternosters at UK universities.

As well as my comment number 106 above about Hitachi's modern day successor to the paternoster, there's another one by ThyssenKrupp in this thread at https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/could-we-see-a-new-type-of-lift-with-up-and-down-shafts.190616

 

[eMeS]

Despite my comment at #108, I'm surprised that any form of Paternoster lift meets today's ideas of "accessibility".

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Despite my comment at #108, I'm surprised that any form of Paternoster lift meets today's ideas of "accessibility".

I'm guessing a bit, but I would have assumed accessibility just requires there to be at least one accessible way of getting to all parts of the building. So if there is, for example, a lift as well. then it doesn't matter if the paternoster is not accessible (just like stairs are basically never accessible - but we still have them in practically all buildings with more than one floor).

 

[eMeS]

I'm guessing a bit, but I would have assumed accessibility just requires there to be at least one accessible way of getting to all parts of the building. So if there is, for example, a lift as well. then it doesn't matter if the paternoster is not accessible (just like stairs are basically never accessible - but we still have them in practically all buildings with more than one floor).

I don't know the details, but would assume that if not already, sooner or later, "accessible" will imply of equal utility to a disabled user as stairs or paternoster are/is to fully able people.

 

[AY1975]

I don't know the details, but would assume that if not already, sooner or later, "accessible" will imply of equal utility to a disabled user as stairs or paternoster are/is to fully able people.

Exactly, so all buildings that have paternosters also have to have a conventional lift both to comply with disabled access regulations and for carrying goods, furniture and equipment as noted in comment 89 above.

 

[py_megapixel]

I like lifts, and do upload occasional videos of them to the YouTube channel in my signature. However I think that comes more from a fascination with anything of that nature, more than specifically taking an interest in lifts, and that channel is likely to be equally often home to buses, trains (of course) and anything else random that happens to take my interest.

I can't think of a concrete description of what these interests are, but generally anything that has an interesting and logical explanation behind it will fall into that category. Lifts are just an easy example to find and are usually accessible to the public.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

Lifts and escalators can and do break down
I think legislation should require alternatives, or maybe more than one lift/escalator

 

[eMeS]

Lifts and escalators can and do break down ...

Like at West India Quay when we were there two years ago. Unfortunately, the Docklands Light Railway is sited some height from the dockside below us, and to which we were directed. (OK. I should have got back on a train, and returned to the other platform where there might have been a working lift...)

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

I always find myself doing mental arithmetic when in a lift after reading the plate showing number of passengers permitted and maximum load in kg

 

[py_megapixel]

Lifts and escalators can and do break down
I think legislation should require alternatives, or maybe more than one lift/escalator

Problem is, if you're in a small to medium building with only 2 or 3 floors then maintaining one lift is reasonable. Maintaining two lifts is overkill, since each will likely only be used a couple of times a day, as most people will take the stairs.

I'm all for accessibility, but if a lift is so unreliable that it goes out of service on a regular basis, then building owners really need to look at replacing it with a better one in my view.

 

[Rick1984]

Lifts and escalators are an uplifting subject
(Sorry)