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Non acceptance of tickets on GatEx (Twitter discussion)

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superalbs

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Just spoke to them on BBC Radio Sussex about it. Hopefully that'll spark a change.
 

Joe Paxton

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Just spoke to them on BBC Radio Sussex about it. Hopefully that'll spark a change.

The more likely change is that one of the results of the current ticketing review will be to give these 'brand-only' tickets a solid legal footing.
 

mallard

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The more likely change is that one of the results of the current ticketing review will be to give these 'brand-only' tickets a solid legal footing.

Surely by doing that they'd be admitting that there was no legal footing before and therefore open up the rail industry to legal action from people who have been mis-sold more expensive tickets or denied travel previously...?
 

Bletchleyite

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Surely by doing that they'd be admitting that there was no legal footing before and therefore open up the rail industry to legal action from people who have been mis-sold more expensive tickets or denied travel previously...?

They already will refund additional ticket purchases where people were charged for this reason, so it wouldn't go to Court.
 

marshmallow

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What is the legal position on Oyster users being charged more for using the Gatwick Express than other services?
 

ForTheLoveOf

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What is the legal position on Oyster users being charged more for using the Gatwick Express than other services?
If it's within what the terms and conditions of Oyster dictate, then I see no reason why there's anything legally wrong with it. I'm not 'au fait' enough with the Oyster terms to know whether it's in there, but I'd have thought it simply references a list of fares given by TfL, or their Single Fare Finder.

Obviously the problem with not allowing passengers who already have valid paper tickets (e.g. Thameslink/Southern only) to use them on GX is that neither the NRCoT nor the TSA have any capacity for there to be 'discrimination' between train companies' brands, only between legally separate train companies. Refusing such tickets or demanding extra amounts is therefore a breach of contract. And in certain cases such refusals or demands could constitute a criminal offence.
 

DavidGrain

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I have an opposite situation with a Southern ticket being refused at Victoria by the barrier gate and by two railmen. Finally the argument was settled by a third railman who came across and advised me to go to the next platform as Gatwick Express would accept my ticket. Apparently my 'Anytime' ticket was not valid until after 9.30 on Southern trains to Gatwick Airport but was valid on Gatwick Express. All this because I had bought my ticket from Southern using a senior railcard.

I am going to Gatwick Airport next week and am not sure what ticket I should now buy.
 

Hadders

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I have an opposite situation with a Southern ticket being refused at Victoria by the barrier gate and by two railmen. Finally the argument was settled by a third railman who came across and advised me to go to the next platform as Gatwick Express would accept my ticket. Apparently my 'Anytime' ticket was not valid until after 9.30 on Southern trains to Gatwick Airport but was valid on Gatwick Express. All this because I had bought my ticket from Southern using a senior railcard.

I am going to Gatwick Airport next week and am not sure what ticket I should now buy.

The refusal might be correct, depending on which ticket you had.
 

DavidGrain

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The refusal might be correct, depending on which ticket you had.

My point is that the ticket said 'Anytime' it did not say 'Anytime after 9.30'. I bought it on a Southern website to travel on a Southern route.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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My point is that the ticket said 'Anytime' it did not say 'Anytime after 9.30'. I bought it on a Southern website to travel on a Southern route.
Unfortunately the issue is not to do with the ticket itself, it's to do with the fact that you're using a Senior Railcard.

You can't use Senior Railcard discounted tickets if you're making a journey entirely within the former Network SouthEast area (see map) before the relevant Off-Peak or Off-Peak Day tickets become valid. On most routes, that's 09:30.

However, IIRC this rule doesn't apply to travel on Gatwick Express, since, despite the journey being entirely within the Network SouthEast area, it was regarded as an Intercity TOC back in BR days and hence the rule does not apply to their services. I think that may be why you were allowed to use the ticket on GX.

Did you originally buy your ticket in conjunction with an itinerary involving the Southern train which you attempted to take?
 

OwlMan

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See the T&Cs of your railcard

4. Conditions of use of the Senior Railcard

4.1. You must be aged 60 years or over to purchase a Senior Railcard.

4.2. Discounts are not available on tickets for travel on morning peak services for journeys that start and end within the London & South East area (defined by the Network Railcard area – network-railcard.co.uk/map) on Monday to Friday (except on public holidays). The time when off-peak services start can vary by station. Use nationalrail.co.uk to plan your journey to identify when off-peak services start or ask rail staff for details.
 

DavidGrain

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Thanks for your comments. As someone who lives in the West Midlands, I have little to do with the conditions relating to the former NSE. Also that day I was travelling from Birmingham and had bought separate tickets Birmingham-Euston and Victoria-Gatwick and used my Oystercard on the Underground. The Birmingham-Euston ticket was an Advance but I had bought an Anytime ticket for Victoria-Gatwick as I did not know what time I would reach Victoria. I still make the point that a ticket marked 'Anytime' should mean anytime and as it was valid one day only it could have said 'after 9.30'
 

ForTheLoveOf

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Thanks for your comments. As someone who lives in the West Midlands, I have little to do with the conditions relating to the former NSE. Also that day I was travelling from Birmingham and had bought separate tickets Birmingham-Euston and Victoria-Gatwick and used my Oystercard on the Underground. The Birmingham-Euston ticket was an Advance but I had bought an Anytime ticket for Victoria-Gatwick as I did not know what time I would reach Victoria. I still make the point that a ticket marked 'Anytime' should mean anytime and as it was valid one day only it could have said 'after 9.30'
In that case, since Condition 14.1 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel state that:
... you may use a combination of two or more Tickets to make a journey provided that the train services you use call at the station(s) where you change from one Ticket to another.
your journey was from Birmingham to Gatwick, and hence did not therefore not both start and end within the Network SouthEast area. As a result, had you mentioned your other ticket(s) and the resultant full extent of your journey, you should have been allowed to use your Anytime ticket on any Southern or other valid service you wanted to. (Whether you would have had this right honoured is an entirely different question!)

As an aside for next time - it's possible to get reasonably priced Advances all the way from Birmingham through to Gatwick and as long as you are at the station in time for your first train in your itinerary, you are perfectly allowed to take later-than-booked trains there or later on in the journey if you experience delays or cancellations which prevent you from travelling in line with your booked itinerary.

In a number of cases a combination of tickets will be cheaper than a through Advance, especially if you can accept a slower journey involving travel via Kensington Olympia or with the stopping West Midlands Trains service. Accredited/'official' sites such as www.trainsplit.com are able to suggest such options and enable their booking all at once.
 

furlong

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I'd agree though that there is a legitimate question of enforceability when the ticket contains misleading information like 'Anytime' and obscure restrictions are hidden in small print that was more than likely not explained to you at the time of ticket purchase as they should have been. It would be interesting to see some test cases. (If the ticket cannot be used at 'Any time' then it should have a different name. Simple!)
 

Hadders

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your journey was from Birmingham to Gatwick, and hence did not therefore not both start and end within the Network SouthEast area. As a result, had you mentioned your other ticket(s) and the resultant full extent of your journey, you should have been allowed to use your Anytime ticket on any Southern or other valid service you wanted to. (Whether you would have had this right honoured is an entirely different question!)

I disagree with this. If you use a combination of tickets for a journey then the individual ticket restrictions still apply.

If I make a journey from London to Birmingham using a combination of London-Milton Keynes and Milton Keynes-Birmingham tickets then the restrictions applying to these individual still apply.

The combination does not take on the restrictions of a London - Birmingham ticket.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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I disagree with this. If you use a combination of tickets for a journey then the individual ticket restrictions still apply.

If I make a journey from London to Birmingham using a combination of London-Milton Keynes and Milton Keynes-Birmingham tickets then the restrictions applying to these individual still apply.

The combination does not take on the restrictions of a London - Birmingham ticket.
Indeed, however the Railcard terms refer to the journey being made, not the origin and destination of the ticket(s) held. The tickets each keep their own restrictions, but merely in this case the restrictions on the London-Gatwick tickets don't apply because the journey starts outside the former NSE area.
 

OwlMan

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They do not, see below- they refer to ticket. There is no mention of journey in the relevant clause of the T&Cs

.
Conditions of use of the Senior Railcard

4.1. You must be aged 60 years or over to purchase a Senior Railcard.

4.2. Discounts are not available on tickets for travel on morning peak services for journeys that start and end within the London & South East area (defined by the Network Railcard area – network-railcard.co.uk/map) on Monday to Friday (except on public holidays). The time when off-peak services start can vary by station. Use nationalrail.co.uk to plan your journey to identify when off-peak services start or ask rail staff for details.
 
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Paul Kelly

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the restrictions on the London-Gatwick tickets don't apply because the journey starts outside the former NSE area
I disagree; they don't apply because they have never applied to Victoria to Gatwick journeys on Gatwick Express, and as it seems at present restrictions are being officially relaxed between the various GTR brandnames, they should also not be applying to journeys from Victoria to Gatwick on Southern.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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I disagree; they don't apply because they have never applied to Victoria to Gatwick journeys on Gatwick Express, and as it seems at present restrictions are being officially relaxed between the various GTR brandnames, they should also not be applying to journeys from Victoria to Gatwick on Southern.
Well, all three of these things ;)
 

bakerstreet

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Here’s an interest thread. Poster wants to claim delay repay on a GatEx train. Guess which website GatEx suggests is used.

https://twitter.com/busandtrainuser/status/1009892565682933765
BusAndTrainUser said:
Hello @GatwickExpress
Your online Delay Repay form only permits BTN, GTW and VIC as stations which can be entered - so how do I submit a claim from HSK? (or BUG and HHE for that matter)
Govia Thameslink Railway said:
I recommend filling out this form instead. It would be the same team dealing with it- http://www.southernrailway.com/delayrepay ^Kim
 
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Haywain

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I disagree; they don't apply because they have never applied to Victoria to Gatwick journeys on Gatwick Express, and as it seems at present restrictions are being officially relaxed between the various GTR brandnames, they should also not be applying to journeys from Victoria to Gatwick on Southern.
What is the source of this? I can see nothing in the railcard terms & conditions to back this up.
 

yorkie

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What is the source of this? I can see nothing in the railcard terms & conditions to back this up.
The source of which part of the post?

Edit: I think you are not questioning that "ticket acceptance" is in place, but the Railcard easement.

The internal KowledgeBase states that between GTW & VIC Senior Railcards can be used on
"all Gatwick Express services between Gatwick Airport and London Victoria at any time"
This is implemented in all booking engines.

However I would not be at all surprised if some GTR staff at Victoria & Gatwick are unaware of this; the training provided by the company is abysmal (but is consistent with the standards I have learnt to expect)
 
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