Luton: Why does it feel like a rundown Northern ex-mill town but is 45 minutes from London?

[bramling]

The following post may be seen as rude or condescending. This is what i actually said:

What I find really confusing is that it is like a northern town but 45 minutes form London

It does have a Mill Town feel although my experience is more ex coal/ex steel towns in the north east. We don't have the Manchester effect on Teesside or Wearside

You obviously missed those statements in your righteous indignation.



You seem to willfully miss the point. You do get run down areas all over the country. However you get less in the SE and Luton stands out as being very different form the surrounding towns. They are all affluent. Luton is not. The feel there is very northern and seems very similar to the towns I know at home. As i said perhaps you haven't experienced towns like that in the North East. I have. Luton feels the same.

I’m not necessarily sure I’d associate Luton with the Durham towns you mention (and, yes, I’ve been to all the places on that list). They’re all fairly small towns, the main issue being deprivation more so than anything else, and presumably stemming from the cessation of one or more key industries/employers. I don’t think an outsider would drive through any of those places and think “total tip” in the same way one does visiting Luton. Without checking figures, I’d also strongly suspect that another big difference is that the Durham towns listed are all coming up to almost 100% white/British, which is very different to Luton.

The places I’d say appear similar to Luton are Blackburn, Burnley, Oldham, Rochdale (less so), Rotherham, Bradford.

From reading this thread, which I must say I have found highly interesting, it does seem like Luton’s issues seem primarily to centre around planning and integration. Not sure if there would be any link between the two or is it just an unlucky coincidence.

 

[yorksrob]

I’m not necessarily sure I’d associate Luton with the Durham towns you mention (and, yes, I’ve been to all the places on that list). They’re all fairly small towns, the main issue being deprivation more so than anything else, and presumably stemming from the cessation of one or more key industries/employers. I don’t think an outsider would drive through any of those places and think “total tip” in the same way one does visiting Luton. Without checking figures, I’d also strongly suspect that another big difference is that the Durham towns listed are all coming up to almost 100% white/British, which is very different to Luton.

The places I’d say appear similar to Luton are Blackburn, Burnley, Oldham, Rochdale (less so), Rotherham, Bradford.

From reading this thread, which I must say I have found highly interesting, it does seem like Luton’s issues seem primarily to centre around planning and integration. Not sure if there would be any link between the two or is it just an unlucky coincidence.

I don't have enough experience of the others, however in spite of being overshadowed by Leeds, Bradford does still have a "City" vibe and does still feel quite impressive in parts. It would be more so had they not decided to flatten Exchange station in 1973, but that's for another thread.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

From reading this thread, which I must say I have found highly interesting, it does seem like Luton’s issues seem primarily to centre around planning and integration. Not sure if there would be any link between the two or is it just an unlucky coincidence.

The problem with Luton's planning is the ball- achingly slow progress of good projects... As I mentioned earlier in the thread, as part of Luton's growth strategy it was decided in the late 60's to build an Inner Ring Road... the 1st phase was built in the early 70's, the 2nd in the early 80's, a third small link at the turn of the century, with the final phase being built around 2015!

Then there is the Galaxy leisure centre...built on the site of the old Co-op superstore. The co-op closed in the early 80's and was immediately earmarked for a new leisure complex, to include a proper theatre- which Luton had been crying out for since the 60's. the centre was finally built in the mid 90's.... without a theatre!

or, to name a transport project... the busway... another thing that took 20 years for the council to make it's mind up on!

Of course... if there's a bad thing to be built that destroys any characterful buildings it gets planned and built in the blink of an eye! Someone further up the thread said Luton had interesting buildings, and gave a list of 4 or 5... the problem is that is the TOTAL number of interesting/ historic buildings in Luton, and of that list only the Parish church is in the town centre!
Truth is, Luton's planning policies {or lack of them} have conspired to turn Luton into a soulless, characterless dump.. and that affects the people who live in the town....

 

[pemma]

I remember that Luton a few years ago had the nickname: "the only ex-mill town in the south". Rather fitting at the time, but many of the real mill towns in the north have since tidied their acts up and become quite desireable to those working in Manchester and Leeds.

My understand is due to the south of England generally having hard water and the north of England generally having soft water it meant it was easier to produce good quality fabrics in the north. I'm aware even today some of the top Italian designers buy Yorkshire fabric to produce designer suits.

There's a diverse range of towns in the north today which used to have mills. If you visit a town like Knutsford it's hard to imagine there were ever mills in it - some of the names give clues like Silk Mill Street and Cotton Shop Yard but the names are the only thing which survived. Down the road in Macclesfield or up the road in Stockport there's tourist attractions in former mills which give demonstrations of processes - silk production in the case of Macclesfield and hat making in the case of Stockport.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Down the road in Macclesfield or up the road in Stockport there's tourist attractions in former mills which give demonstrations of processes - silk production in the case of Macclesfield and hat making in the case of Stockport.

And there's another reason why Luton's soul has "died" there are no museums celebrating it's past....

 

[DarloRich]

Teflon Lettuce, it'd be pointless trying to get a clear point across to DarloRich. He's obviously closed minded and thinks that everything that doesn't fit his extreme lefty views is either racist or fascist. His behaviour is, in my view, on par to that social justice warrior nutjob Bunny LaRoche. I bet she'd feel right at home in Luton.

Sorry I have no idea what this angry gibberish is talking about. This is obviously some incredibly cutting and savage alt right spectrum insult but i simply have no idea what you are talking about.

Your obviously missing the point and still trying to paint me as hard right. Where do I blame Muslims? Where do I blame brown people? Still trying to get one over me by pulling the race card again? You haven't a leg to stand on, its clear DarloRich where your views lie as well and its somewhere over the extreme left of the political scale.

Your views are clear no matter how much you try to obfuscate. The inference in the use of the word "zonification" is obvious. The only "pulling" i did was of your alt right views. It is you desperate to play the race card and blame Muslims for all of the problems in Luton. That is manifestly preposterous. How, for instance, could the Muslims be responsible for poor planning policy and the inability of the local council to fund development work?

My views are centre right, which you will find that most people who are centre right have an open mind and are not afraid of saying what they think, and if I think that the zoneification that Luton has could well spread to places such as Halifax, Bradford, Huddersfield and elsewhere then I stand by those views. I'm not afraid of speaking my mind.

OF COURSE you are centre right. I think that was shown when you said your great centre right hero Tommy Robinson was sent to prison because there was a brown home secretary not that he was sent to prison becuase he is a common criminal on a suspended sentence! What a whopper.

If more people spoke their mind then we wouldn't be having the sort of social and community cohesion problems that we're having as it would have been dealt with years ago.

Spoke up and done what? Sent them back?

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Sorry I have no idea what this angry gibberish is talking about. This is obviously some incredibly cutting and savage alt right spectrum insult but i simply have no idea what you are talking about.



Your views are clear no matter how much you try to obfuscate. The inference in the use of the word "zonification" is obvious. The only "pulling" i did was of your alt right views. It is you desperate to play the race card and blame Muslims for all of the problems in Luton. That is manifestly preposterous. How, for instance, could the Muslims be responsible for poor planning policy and the inability of the local council to fund development work?



OF COURSE you are centre right. I think that was shown when you said your great centre right hero Tommy Robinson was sent to prison because there was a brown home secretary not that he was sent to prison becuase he is a common criminal on a suspended sentence! What a whopper.



Spoke up and done what? Sent them back?

You keep claiming that others are hung up on the race issue... however it is you that keeps on dragging this thread back to the race relations issue... at the end of the day, we all have different views about the race issue... mine does not coincide with yours... it does you, nor your cause, any favours by continually trying to paint those who disagree with you as racist... please... move on and let's debate in full why Luton is such a dump! {see my previous post}... and, to use the post PC language that you wish to use, stop being a snowflake!

 

[DarloRich]

You keep claiming that others are hung up on the race issue... however it is you that keeps on dragging this thread back to the race relations issue... at the end of the day, we all have different views about the race issue... mine does not coincide with yours... it does you, nor your cause, any favours by continually trying to paint those who disagree with you as racist... please... move on and let's debate in full why Luton is such a dump! {see my previous post}... and, to use the post PC language that you wish to use, stop being a snowflake!

While I agree surely there is a right of reply. I am also in agreement with your previous post.

BTW - i am not one for PC language nor do I really know what a "snowflake" is in this context. I simply point out that to try and blame the Muslims for ALL of the problems in Luton is manifestly absurd and an easy way out. I will also point out i haven't called anyone racist.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

While I agree surely there is a right of reply. I am also in agreement with your previous post.

BTW - i am not one for PC language nor do I really know what a "snowflake" is in this context. I simply point out that to try and blame the Muslims for ALL of the problems in Luton is manifestly absurd and an easy way out. I will also point out i haven't called anyone racist.

I didn't say you had called anyone racist... I said you try to paint anyone who disagrees with your views as racist... accusing people of having "alt right" views for example.... and if you are aware of "alt right" it is manifestly absurd to claim you don't know the meaning of "snowflake"

Now that is my final word on this subject, but knowing what I know from previous posts I'm sure you will want the final word....

 

[DarloRich]

To extend the debate. Why have the council not been able to attract the kind of inward investment seen in other towns in the area? Luton has as as good links to transport as, say, Milton Keynes or Stevenage ( better if you include the airport) let those towns seem to out perform Luton with ease. Why?

House prices in Luton are, generally, lower than surrounding towns. Why has the crisis of housing and the cost of housing in the SE not driven a kind of forced gentrification of the town? Why has there not been a "second wave" of domestic immigrants forced into the town by the cost of housing in the surrounding areas?

As an example the same type of house ( traditional brick Victorian workers terrace) as mine ( 2 bed terrace) is a good £25/30k cheaper in Luton than in MK. In some area the price is cheaper still. I do not understand how young professional people have not snapped these house up through the lack of choice and affordability elsewhere.

I didn't say you had called anyone racist... I said you try to paint anyone who disagrees with your views as racist... accusing people of having "alt right" views for example.... and if you are aware of "alt right" it is manifestly absurd to claim you don't know the meaning of "snowflake"

Now that is my final word on this subject, but knowing what I know from previous posts I'm sure you will want the final word....

No I haven't. At all. I have tried to suggest that blaming one section of a community for the problems of the entire community is absurd. It is clear that the Muslim community are to a greater or lesser degree responsible for social cohesion issues. They cant be responsible for the cack handed approach the town council takes to planning, delivering and funding projects!

 

[cjmillsnun]

Luton's north of Watford - it's in the north

The expression is north of Watford Gap. Which is in the Northampton area.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The expression is north of Watford Gap. Which is in the Northampton area.

Norf ov da Rivva innit bruv?

 

[mmh]

To extend the debate. Why have the council not been able to attract the kind of inward investment seen in other towns in the area? Luton has as as good links to transport as, say, Milton Keynes or Stevenage ( better if you include the airport) let those towns seem to out perform Luton with ease. Why?

It doesn't have anywhere near as good rail connections as Milton Keynes. You can get to London from Luton and that's about it. Going pretty much anywhere else from Luton will involve changing in London and often a long double-back.

House prices in Luton are, generally, lower than surrounding towns. Why has the crisis of housing and the cost of housing in the SE not driven a kind of forced gentrification of the town? Why has there not been a "second wave" of domestic immigrants forced into the town by the cost of housing in the surrounding areas?

As an example the same type of house ( traditional brick Victorian workers terrace) as mine ( 2 bed terrace) is a good £25/30k cheaper in Luton than in MK. In some area the price is cheaper still. I do not understand how young professional people have not snapped these house up through the lack of choice and affordability elsewhere.

Err, because people don't want to live in a dump, even if it's a cheap dump?

 

[si404]

The expression is north of Watford Gap. Which is in the Northampton area.

And the joke goes woosh over your head.

 

[AlterEgo]

It would be much easier to erase Luton from the map and start again. I can never decide which is worse, Marsh Farm or Bury Park.

 

[Abpj17]

I’m not sure that siloed, ghettoised groups of people with no common values, no common outlook and quite possibly no common language, who happen to live in the same small area, counts as “diversity” in any meaningful sense.

You seem to be (deliberately?) ignoring the poor social and economic participation of the groups in question.

No I'm not. I actually live here unlike almost every other poster. (And between myself and my family have broad experience - immediate family work in local education, social care and health support services.)

And there's another reason why Luton's soul has "died" there are no museums celebrating it's past....

Right. https://www.lutonculture.com/

To extend the debate. Why have the council not been able to attract the kind of inward investment seen in other towns in the area? Luton has as as good links to transport as, say, Milton Keynes or Stevenage ( better if you include the airport) let those towns seem to out perform Luton with ease. Why?

House prices in Luton are, generally, lower than surrounding towns. Why has the crisis of housing and the cost of housing in the SE not driven a kind of forced gentrification of the town? Why has there not been a "second wave" of domestic immigrants forced into the town by the cost of housing in the surrounding areas?

As an example the same type of house ( traditional brick Victorian workers terrace) as mine ( 2 bed terrace) is a good £25/30k cheaper in Luton than in MK. In some area the price is cheaper still. I do not understand how young professional people have not snapped these house up through the lack of choice and affordability elsewhere.

There is inward investment, but it's different to Milton Keynes and Stevenage. There is a lot of vehicle and aviation experience in the area - based on the manufacturing and engineering routes. There are pockets of MK like businesses on the periphery - like Capability Green. However, MK and Stevenage both feel geographically bigger than Luton. It's position within the Chilterns and tightly drawn town boundaries means space is often still constrained.

Some young professional people are snapping up houses. There are also a steadily increasing number of flats being built in the town centre, and a new estate next to the parkway station.

I have a 5 bed house worth apparently 220k (I paid 135k in 2003) in Luton. The cheapest 5 bed I can see in St Albans is half a million. Cheapest in MK is 230k (and you wouldn't live there) - realistically more like 350k. In Hemel it's 400k.

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200102/cmselect/cmodpm/1207/120727.htm paints a picture of some of the challenges. Tight boundaries. The council tends to pick businesses or housing - both is a luxury, and where do you draw the balance when the town isn't self-contained because of mass employment in MK and London. And even within the boundaries there is green belt land. Marsh Farm and surrounding estates are is a good example - there are neolithic works that aren't built on, and parkland following the course of the river. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waulud's_Bank

No I haven't. At all. I have tried to suggest that blaming one section of a community for the problems of the entire community is absurd. It is clear that the Muslim community are to a greater or lesser degree responsible for social cohesion issues. They cant be responsible for the cack handed approach the town council takes to planning, delivering and funding projects!

... or for the prejudice of the 'incumbent' population.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

No I'm not. I actually live here unlike almost every other poster. (And between myself and my family have broad experience - immediate family work in local education, social care and health support services.)


Right. https://www.lutonculture.com/

ok hands up I was wrong on that score... based on old information... I've not been back to Luton in about 12 yrs... I've had no need to, and certainly have had absolutely no wish to... when I lived there the Hat Factory didn't exist, and the Stockwood Museum was in it's infancy... though I admit, Wardown Museum was always a nice place to visit...

However, as a former resident I've got to say that "culture" in Luton was seen as a bit of a joke... Milton Keynes had it's concrete cows... so Luton decided to pay £30k for some "concrete sheep"... and they were literally oblong blocks of concrete

 

[Abpj17]

ok hands up I was wrong on that score... based on old information... I've not been back to Luton in about 12 yrs... I've had no need to, and certainly have had absolutely no wish to... when I lived there the Hat Factory didn't exist, and the Stockwood Museum was in it's infancy... though I admit, Wardown Museum was always a nice place to visit...

However, as a former resident I've got to say that "culture" in Luton was seen as a bit of a joke... Milton Keynes had it's concrete cows... so Luton decided to pay £30k for some "concrete sheep"... and they were literally oblong blocks of concrete

I'm not sure concrete cows really count as culture either. Or that Milton Keynes fares much better. Luton has a significant population working in London - you head there for big theatre and art. Luton's cultural distinction is the UK Centre for Carnival Arts. But that probably runs contrary to the narrative of silo'd communities... http://www.culture-first.com/suppor...luton-carnival-more-than-just-a-large-parade/

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I'm not sure concrete cows really count as culture either. Or that Milton Keynes fares much better. Luton has a significant population working in London - you head there for big theatre and art. Luton's cultural distinction is the UK Centre for Carnival Arts. But that probably runs contrary to the narrative of silo'd communities... http://www.culture-first.com/suppor...luton-carnival-more-than-just-a-large-parade/

at least MK's concrete cows LOOK like cows and yes I am aware of Luton's carnival tradition... it's now the world's largest one day carnival IIRC... though when I lived there and was involved in the carnival it was more an oversized village fete in concept.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

You keep claiming that others are hung up on the race issue... however it is you that keeps on dragging this thread back to the race relations issue... at the end of the day, we all have different views about the race issue... mine does not coincide with yours... it does you, nor your cause, any favours by continually trying to paint those who disagree with you as racist... please... move on and let's debate in full why Luton is such a dump! {see my previous post}... and, to use the post PC language that you wish to use, stop being a snowflake!

Teflon Lettuce, DarloRich can't see anything apart from everyone on here being far right in his view. Perhaps if he wasn't so extreme left and closed minded then he'd see that zoneification in Luton is only making things worse.

Yet he can't see this because of his narrow minded views.

Your views are clear no matter how much you try to obfuscate. The inference in the use of the word "zonification" is obvious. The only "pulling" i did was of your alt right views. It is you desperate to play the race card and blame Muslims for all of the problems in Luton. That is manifestly preposterous. How, for instance, could the Muslims be responsible for poor planning policy and the inability of the local council to fund development work?

OF COURSE you are centre right. I think that was shown when you said your great centre right hero Tommy Robinson was sent to prison because there was a brown home secretary not that he was sent to prison becuase he is a common criminal on a suspended sentence! What a whopper.

Spoke up and done what? Sent them back?

Where, in my posts, in this thread do I blame "brown people"? Where do I blame Muslims?

Come on, please tell me where - as you'll find had you read my posts correctly, that I don't. All I've stated is that the zoneification of Luton is not helping Luton at all, all its doing is making things worse - now that isn't racist or fascist whatsoever, its common sense to bring it up as that is where one of the problems originates through segregation and zoneification - which would be a bad thing should it spread through to Bradford, Huddersfield, Halifax and elsewhere as community cohesion will be simply out of the window.

You keep banging on about me having, what you regard as, "alt-right" views? Just because your extreme left, that you feel the need to target someone just because their centre right but that doesn't fit your extreme left wing narrative whereby anyone else must be either racist, fascist or have no right to say what they think.

All you've done throughout this thread DarloRich is not only blame others by calling them "racist" or "fascist" but have dragged the thread off topic into something else completely.

You don't seem to get it that I'm centre right i.e. your typical Tory / UKIP voter who has a conservative way of life and belives in a better, fairer Britain.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Teflon Lettuce, DarloRich can't see anything apart from everyone on here being far right in his view. Perhaps if he wasn't so extreme left and closed minded then he'd see that zoneification in Luton is only making things worse.

Yet he can't see this because of his narrow minded views.

what amazes me is that he bandies around terms like "alt-right" but when I said not to be such a snowflake he seemed not to know what that was.... I think that says it all...

I agree with you, the way that Luton's Muslim population, specifically those from the Indian-subcontinent have CHOSEN not to integrate/ move into "non-Asian" areas of Luton has done a lot of damage to the social cohesion of Luton. And no matter how much anyone wishes to accuse me of using racist arguments it doesn't alter the facts. They have CHOSEN not to move away from Bury Park, in large part because they don't wish to move away from friends/ family/ mosques. The non Muslim population can hardly be blamed for that can they?

 

[Domh245]

You don't seem to get it that I'm centre right i.e. your typical Tory / UKIP voter who has a conservative way of life and belives in a better, fairer Britain.

That isn't centre right by any stretch of the imagination, so long as you mention UKIP. I seem to remember you describing yourself as a libertarian - which absolutely isn't centre right, not by any stretch.

 

[Domh245]

what amazes me is that he bandies around terms like "alt-right" but when I said not to be such a snowflake he seemed not to know what that was.... I think that says it all...

The difference of course being that alt-right is a self professed identity that has gained traction and coverage in mainstream media. Snowflake however is a derogatory term used (primarily) by members of the alt-right to describe people who disagree with them.

 

[Abpj17]

what amazes me is that he bandies around terms like "alt-right" but when I said not to be such a snowflake he seemed not to know what that was.... I think that says it all...

I agree with you, the way that Luton's Muslim population, specifically those from the Indian-subcontinent have CHOSEN not to integrate/ move into "non-Asian" areas of Luton has done a lot of damage to the social cohesion of Luton. And no matter how much anyone wishes to accuse me of using racist arguments it doesn't alter the facts. They have CHOSEN not to move away from Bury Park, in large part because they don't wish to move away from friends/ family/ mosques. The non Muslim population can hardly be blamed for that can they?

Ummm, there are a lot living outside Bury Park as well. Although it is unreasonable to want to be within walking distance of a religious centre if you take your religion seriously and don't drive?

Perhaps the most illustrative example is the mix of councillors. https://democracy.luton.gov.uk/cmis5public/Councillors/tabid/63/ScreenMode/Ward/Default.aspx

And as you may be aware, there is a large African Pentecostal church in Bury Park.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

That isn't centre right by any stretch of the imagination, so long as you mention UKIP. I seem to remember you describing yourself as a libertarian - which absolutely isn't centre right, not by any stretch.

Out if interest, where do you place libertarianism then?

 

[Domh245]

Out if interest, where do you place libertarianism then?

I place it right/far right, but I think that's as much down to the fact that most self professed libertarianisms that I interact with are american (and slightly bonkers) and tend to have very right wing economic policies (small govt, etc.)

 

[Bromley boy]

I place it right/far right, but I think that's as much down to the fact that most self professed libertarianisms that I interact with are american (and slightly bonkers) and tend to have very right wing economic policies (small govt, etc.)

Come on, you can do better than that.

Libertarianism of itself is neither right nor left wing. It’s a philosophical outlook centred around freedom of the individual and personal autonomy (depending on whose definition you believe!). It’s not entirely dissimilar to liberalism, except that liberalism perhaps places more emphasis on freedom from oppression, equality etc.

Libertarianism as a thought system could be equally subscribed to by those who are to the left of right of the political spectrum.

It’s also totally inaccurate to equate wanting small government with being “very right wing”. You are falling into the same trap as a lot of posters on this board by equating views which are slightly right of centre with the far right.

EDIT: I’m also not sure UKIP can fairly be described as “far right” (some of its members may be, of course, but many are ex tories who would generally be considered to be mainstream right wing - to the right of centre right, if that makes sense).

 

[whhistle]

I didn't say you had called anyone racist... I said you try to paint anyone who disagrees with your views as racist...

What's the difference?

Maybe try using plainer language of what you actually mean rather than buzz words that can have different meanings.

If you're "painting" someone as racist, you're "calling" tham a racist. If you're not calling them racist, then why are you painting them out to be one?

 

[FGW_Lad]

Lived on the edge of Slough for over 40 years, (Pre Queensmere). Was a Councillor there in the 80's. Left in 2001 as it was just not the place I wanted to live in anymore. Go back often as I have all my family living there. Was back two weeks ago. My other half asked me if I would ever move back. No chance. The place gets worse every year. My sister has had enough of the place and is moving to Gloucestershire. It's a kip, and has become an ever bigger kip since the 60's. At least when I was living close by I could escape into Burnham Beeches and the wider Chilterns. As for Slough, once my parents go I will be glad never to darken it's doors again.

Been living in Slough my whole life and have never had any issues. Yes it has its problems but certainly isn't the worst place in the UK to live in.

 

[MrCub]

I live on the outskirts of Luton and have done for 10 years. I've never experienced any 'ethnicity' problems or clashes. I work with people from all backgrounds and wouldn't want it any other way. The inside of the Arndale is quite good but the outside is, indeed, hideous. The station is disgusting. The housing is largely of good quality. There some some lovely parts of Luton which are always overlooked as people simply complain about the crap town centre and the crap station. I genuinely have no problem at all living here. Housing prices have shot up in recent years and look set to continue.

Much of it is undergoing regeneration and it is becoming a solid commuter town. Yes, there are some real social problems. but find me a town where that doesn't exist. It isn't St Albans or Harpenden, but there are far worse places to live.