Grayling Announces Push for Electric Vehicles & Home Charging Points.

[Envoy]

Transport secretary Chris Grayling has announced a big push to get vehicles to be electric in the future and new homes must have charging points.

https://news.sky.com/story/new-homes-could-be-required-to-have-electric-car-charge-points-11430869

"The Road to Zero Strategy, combined with the measures we've already introduced, will mean Britain now has one of the most comprehensive support packages for zero-emission vehicles in the world," Mr Grayling will say.

"We want the UK to become the best country in the world in which to develop and manufacture zero-emission vehicles.

So, why has the roll out of electrifying the railways been cancelled? Is it OK for trains to create diesel fumes & poison rail staff and passengers as well as the wider environment but not road traffic? Has rail electrification been cancelled because Network Rail can’t control costs and get contracts done on time? After a long gap with no electrification being done, a new set of people had to learn how to do the job. Presumably, with this stop/go policy, all these people will not be needed in the future?

 

[Busaholic]

With him in charge, no chance!

 

[Kite159]

Although I guess only applies to houses with off-street parking areas?

 

[NSEFAN]

So, why has the roll out of electrifying the railways been cancelled? Is it OK for trains to create diesel fumes & poison rail staff and passengers as well as the wider environment but not road traffic? Has rail electrification been cancelled because Network Rail can’t control costs and get contracts done on time?

To be fair, these are different issues. Railway electrification has to follow strict specifications and target dates set, and also affects other things like rolling stock and timetables which have to be planned alongside it, so when it goes wrong it plays havoc with railway logistics. On the other hand, simply requiring all new homes to have a feature is comparatively easy, and the exact implementation can be left up to housebuilders to sort out. Homeowners can simply choose not to use the outlets if they don't have an electric car.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I'm slightly mixed on this. On the one hand, we do need to phase out petrol and diesel cars for obvious pollution-related reasons, and charging points by homes and near new street lighting will certainly help that. But on the other hand, this feels a bit like locking in car-dependency. Far better to encourage people to not have cars at all. How will this idea work with apartment blocks etc. that are increasingly (and rightly) being deliberately built with minimal car parking spaces in order to discourage car ownership?

And on this subject... How about compulsory cycle parking places? So many residential areas are chock-a-block full of on-street car parking but have nowhere at all that you can conveniently leave a bicycle if visiting. Compelling councils and builders to put in charging points for cars, but leaving nothing for bicycles definitely seems like the wrong priority to me.

 

[DarloRich]

Far better to encourage people to not have cars at all. How will this idea work with apartment blocks etc. that are increasingly (and rightly) being deliberately built with minimal car parking spaces in order to discourage car ownership?

no that happens to minimise retail return. it also creates chaos on any estate as cars are dumped on curbs and pavements. Despite what posters here desire desperately the car cant be un invented and people are not going to give it up.

This idea may help with a switch in power plant but wont change the fact that cars are still in charge.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I'm slightly mixed on this. On the one hand, we do need to phase out petrol and diesel cars for obvious pollution-related reasons, and charging points by homes and near new street lighting will certainly help that. But on the other hand, this feels a bit like locking in car-dependency. Far better to encourage people to not have cars at all. How will this idea work with apartment blocks etc. that are increasingly (and rightly) being deliberately built with minimal car parking spaces in order to discourage car ownership?

Have you ever tried to bring home the weekly shopping from your local supermarket on public transport?

 

[DarloRich]

Have you ever tried to bring home the weekly shopping from your local supermarket on public transport?

I dont have a car. It is perfectly easy - One has a man bring it from the shop to my door.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I dont have a car. It is perfectly easy - One has a man bring it from the shop to my door.

I was awaiting such a response, but one person on the thread seems to want to rule out all car ownership. So based on the number of shoppers who will then not have the use of their cars to do shopping, how many home delivery shopping vans could there then expected to be in the UK?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I was awaiting such a response, but one person on the thread seems to want to rule out all car ownership. So based on the number of shoppers who will then not have the use of their cars to do shopping, how many home delivery shopping vans could there then expected to be in the UK?

I think you've badly misunderstood something. I've just reviewed the thread and I don't see anyone calling for all car ownership to be ruled out. There is one person (me) who wants much more to be done to discourage car ownership, and encourage/make it easier for people to use alternatives, which was part of the thrust of my previous post in this thread. Hopefully it's obvious that that is not remotely the same thing is 'ruling out' car ownership.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Have you ever tried to bring home the weekly shopping from your local supermarket on public transport?

How do you think the millions of people in the UK who today don't have a car manage that? Lots will, as DarloRich points out, have their groceries delivered. Some will use public transport (which in many, although obviously not all, areas is perfectly possible). Some will live close enough to their nearest supermarket to walk to it. Personally, I normally get my shopping home by bicycle. Obviously those options won't suit everyone. There certainly will be some people (especially large families) who for various reasons will feel they can only get their shopping home by car. But I'd bet you the vast majority of people who currently drive to the supermarket could without significant difficulty avoid driving to it (and thereby avoid causing noise, congestion and pollution for their fellow human beings in their neighbourhood) if they put their mind to it.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I think you've badly misunderstood something. I've just reviewed the thread and I don't see anyone calling for all car ownership to be ruled out. There is one person (me) who wants much more to be done to discourage car ownership, and encourage/make it easier for people to use alternatives, which was part of the thrust of my previous post in this thread. Hopefully it's obvious that that is not remotely the same thing is 'ruling out' car ownership.

You have just proved how cognitive mental understanding in the elderly (I am 73 and suffered a stroke at the age of 67) is an unfortunate fact of life, though some do retain more understanding than others. Can I therefore ask, as a Life Member of the National Trust, how do you propose that members visit many of the National Trust sites, many of which such as Erddig and Lyme Park have extremely long driveways from the main road highway to the House and Gardens.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

Awkard timing for the announcement after this recent article:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44575399

TL;DR - battery ranges have been exaggerated and batteries heat up with fast charge so charging a second time in a day takes a lot longer.

There is still a very long way to go to make electric cars a viable alternative to petrol/diesel for the vast majority of consumers.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

How do you think the millions of people in the UK who today don't have a car manage that? Lots will, as DarloRich points out, have their groceries delivered.

You appear not to have seen the reference to the "X" number of the said delivery vans in my posting #9 on the thread.

 

[Starmill]

Have you ever tried to bring home the weekly shopping from your local supermarket on public transport?

Yeah, many times. It was fine.

Typically I'll walk though. Rucksack and two carrier bags.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Have you ever tried to bring home the weekly shopping from your local supermarket on public transport?

Not in a long time, as Tesco do it for me.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Not in a long time, as Tesco do it for me.

Do you pay a surcharge on the cost of your shopping for this and do they make their delivery at a time of your own choosing?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

You appear not to have seen the reference to the "X" number of the said delivery vans in my posting #9 on the thread.

I did see it, but I don't believe it changes the argument. In a single journey, one delivery van is going to be able to make deliveries to a significant number of houses - which obviously still means a lower total motorized-vehicle mileage and therefore less congestion than if all those households individually drove to the supermarket.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

You have just proved how cognitive mental understanding in the elderly (I am 73 and suffered a stroke at the age of 67) is an unfortunate fact of life, though some do retain more understanding than others. Can I therefore ask, as a Life Member of the National Trust, how do you propose that members visit many of the National Trust sites, many of which such as Erddig and Lyme Park have extremely long driveways from the main road highway to the House and Gardens.

You may notice that I've repeatedly stated a view that (to paraphrase) many (in some cases, most) car journeys could be made by other means. It looks to me like you are responding as if I'd said 'all' car journeys. Since you are fond of commenting on other people's use of the English language on these forums, can I assume that you are aware of the difference in meaning between 'many' and 'all'?

I don't know much about your personal circumstances, so cannot really comment on them. For all I know, maybe you are one of the minority who really couldn't do without a car for certain essential journeys; only you can judge that. In this context, I'd mention I have a close relative who for health reasons genuinely does need a car, and needs to use it, even for some relatively short journeys - so I'm certainly not unaware that such a need exist. I don't believe that changes the point that many people do use cars when they don't really need to. And it doesn't change the issue that using a car ought to be discouraged because using a car almost always harms other people - because of the congestion, noise and pollution it causes. And it often slightly harms the driver too by contributing to a long-term decline in the driver's health/fitness.

Back to the topic of this thread... Do you have any serious objection to my suggestion that providing decent parking for bicycles ought to get at least as much priority (if not a higher priority) than providing charging points for electric cars?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Yeah, many times. It was fine.

Typically I'll walk though. Rucksack and two carrier bags.

I am 73, my good lady wife is 76. How old are you?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Back to the topic of this thread... Do you have any serious objection to my suggestion that providing better parking for bicycles ought to get at least as much priority (if not a higher priority) than providing charging points for electric cars?

I have no objection whatsoever to people owning and using bicycles. It does indeed sadden me when the figures for the numbers of stolen bicycles are stated, even those where their owners have used high-quality security devices to them, especially as the cost of the bicycle can be very high.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

One could, if one wished, develop the theme of a great reduction in private car ownership, to entail a great reduction in the annual financing of the upkeep of the road systems of Britain. I am sure that the materials used in road surfacing are detrimental to health at the time of surfacing.

Anyway, to end on a jovial note, my good lady wife and I will wave graciously from our barouche to the local peasantry and will only expect forelocks to be tugged on Wednesday half-day closings....

 

[Springs Branch]

Transport secretary Chris Grayling has announced......
---- <snip> ----
After a long gap with no electrification being done, a new set of people had to learn how to do the job. Presumably, with this stop/go policy, all these people will not be needed in the future?

Looks like experienced railway electrification workers could have lots of well-paid work in the sun, according to this article on skills shortages for new rail infrastructure projects from ABC News in Australia.

Metronet Perth train project could be derailed by a national skills shortage of rail workers
By Emily Piesse
Five years ago, Metronet was the pipe dream of a West Australian Opposition keen to present itself as a visionary alternative government. Today, as the McGowan Government prepares to issue tenders for two Metronet projects — and keeps a tight rein on spending in other portfolios — the proposed rail network is the cornerstone of its policies.

The first stage of the project — $4.75 billion in works — includes almost 60 kilometres of new rail line, as well as the Forrestfield-Airport rail link. But as the project gains momentum, questions are being raised about whether WA has enough workers with the right skills for the mammoth task ahead.

Stiff competition for workers
The scale of rail developments planned across Australia's capital cities is immense. Nationally, there are 10 major rail projects, either proposed or under construction, valued at $1 billion or more.

The largest of these, Sydney Metro, will be a $20 billion-plus investment in more than 66 kilometres of new rail line.

Source: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-...-demand-as-skills-shortage-takes-grip/9957992

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do you pay a surcharge on the cost of your shopping for this and do they make their delivery at a time of your own choosing?

Yes, around £3 on average which is not much more than the fuel. Yes, you can select a 2 hour slot. It’s all very convenient. Waitrose offer it too if that is more to your taste.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Yes, around £3 on average which is not much more than the fuel. Yes, you can select a 2 hour slot. It’s all very convenient. Waitrose offer it too if that is more to your taste.

Thank you for this information. I must confess that both of us at home are mindful of the employment of workers in differing retail sectors, that seems to grow less year on year off. Neither of us would ever use a self-service check-out but prefer a real and employed person to deal with our shopping. There are a number of small independent shops that we frequent where the staff there are more akin to family friends that we have known for many years.

 

[Harpers Tate]

...battery ranges have been exaggerated and batteries heat up with fast charge so charging a second time in a day takes a lot longer.....

That "feature" is, presently, exclusive to the one make/model of car quoted - the "new" Nissan Leaf. It is not true of my Hyundai, nor of any Tesla vehicle, both of which have active temperature management in their power packs. I believe it is equally untrue of ALL other EVs (except that Nissan) though in those cases it may be achieved by different means.

 

[whhistle]

Do you pay a surcharge on the cost of your shopping for this and do they make their delivery at a time of your own choosing?

To be fair, the £1 it costs on an ad-hoc basis is way less than me driving to the supermarket to spend 30 minutes walking round and driving home again.

Not being bad, but isn't it your generation that created this boom in car ownership anyway?

I'd support a large push in electric and have solar panels and electric charging as standard in new homes. Just like fibre optic should also be a standard on new homes. Even if it just goes out to a junction box on the street somewhere. At least it's ready for potential fibre in the future. But I'd also make sure gas mains are kept.

The problem is cost.
Electric cars are still hugely expensive. With petrol and diesel, you get a lot more of a range of prices. If a company brought out a budget electric car (thinking Toyota Aygo - the car for students), I'd easily trade in.

 

[radamfi]

And on this subject... How about compulsory cycle parking places? So many residential areas are chock-a-block full of on-street car parking but have nowhere at all that you can conveniently leave a bicycle if visiting. Compelling councils and builders to put in charging points for cars, but leaving nothing for bicycles definitely seems like the wrong priority to me.

Bike parking at residential property is well catered for in the Netherlands

https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2013/07/11/parking-your-bike-at-home/

 

[radamfi]

You have just proved how cognitive mental understanding in the elderly (I am 73 and suffered a stroke at the age of 67) is an unfortunate fact of life, though some do retain more understanding than others. Can I therefore ask, as a Life Member of the National Trust, how do you propose that members visit many of the National Trust sites, many of which such as Erddig and Lyme Park have extremely long driveways from the main road highway to the House and Gardens.

If you go into the countryside in the Netherlands on a nice day, you will see countless elderly people on their bikes. Typically couples with identical electric bikes.

 

[PeterC]

New developments should have a power supply that will support EVs being charged in every parking space. Where parking is not within the curtilage of the property then power needs to be supplied to the parking places.

Every property that I have lived in has had a storage area that could be used for bikes. While all have had dedicated parking 40% have not had power available in the parking area.