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West Croydon to Wimbledon Line Questions

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03_179

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Morning all,

I have a few questions I'm hoping you guys can answer.

The 'Winkle Line' closed to heavy rail in 1997 to become the Tramlink when it reopened in 2000).
  • When did the 2EPB units stop operating the line?
  • I know cl. 456s took over from 2EBPs was it a gradual change or just a full change?
  • What other stock would have run over the lines between 1980-1997?
  • Anyone have examples of timetables for the line between 1980-1997 they would be prepared to share with me?
  • How many units would have been diagrammed on the line on a normal weekday (and weekends)?
I may have a few more questions when I have these answers.

Oh one other question. What year did 2EPBs and 456s receive NSE Livery ?

Thanks in advance on and all.
 
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Carlisle

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Oh one other question. What year did 2EPBs and 456s receive NSE Livery ?
.
456s all had NSE livery from new, I seem to remember some EPBs were still being painted in BR blue/grey for years after NSEs launch, presumably as they hadn’t long left planned in service
 
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03_179

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456s all had NSE livery from new, I seem to remember some EPBs were still being painted in BR blue/grey for years after NSEs launch, presumably as they hadn’t long left planned in service

Thanks,

I noticed on wiki that "Only one unit, No. 456024, was repainted in white and yellow Connex livery, when it was named Sir Cosmo Bonsor".

I seem to remember a couple of 2EPBs in NSE. Would those have been allocated to Selhurst or where would the WC-Wim line units been allocated?
 

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Journeyman

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Morning all,

I have a few questions I'm hoping you guys can answer.

The 'Winkle Line' closed to heavy rail in 1997 to become the Tramlink when it reopened in 2000).
  • When did the 2EPB units stop operating the line?
  • I know cl. 456s took over from 2EBPs was it a gradual change or just a full change?
  • What other stock would have run over the lines between 1980-1997?
  • Anyone have examples of timetables for the line between 1980-1997 they would be prepared to share with me?
  • How many units would have been diagrammed on the line on a normal weekday (and weekends)?
I may have a few more questions when I have these answers.

Oh one other question. What year did 2EPBs and 456s receive NSE Livery ?

Thanks in advance on and all.

Can't give you a huge amount of detail, I'm afraid, but the changeover to 456s was complete and I don't recall 2-EPBs appearing again after 456s took over. The line only needed one unit for service, at least at off-peak times.
 

RichJF

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There's also a picture on Blood & Custard of a 4 EPB working the 17:31 Wmbledon - West Croydon.
I also recall as a child leaving Ikea & seeing a 455 running along the line (in service I don't know).

Slightly out of your timeframe but just for context there are also picture of 2-Bils running on the line.
 

03_179

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There's also a picture on Blood & Custard of a 4 EPB working the 17:31 Wmbledon - West Croydon.
I also recall as a child leaving Ikea & seeing a 455 running along the line (in service I don't know).

Slightly out of your timeframe but just for context there are also picture of 2-Bils running on the line.

Thanks. I would have thought a 455 would have had problems with doors as some of the stations could only accomodate a 3 (possibly a 3 car) train. What year was the 4EPB and do you have a link ?

Yes a 2BIL would be but certainly interesting to see.
 

30907

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The 8-EPB formation in that photo is clearly on the Wimbledon and Sutton (at the point where it diverged from the goods lines) - so the train was going to West Croydon but continuing thence to London Bridge.

I don't think anything more than 2 cars fitted in the bay at West Croydon, and it was always a simple 2-train operation.
 

tsr

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Thanks. I would have thought a 455 would have had problems with doors as some of the stations could only accomodate a 3 (possibly a 3 car) train.

455s have long been permitted to run in passenger traffic with up to two coaches locked out of use as a form of rudimentary SDO.
 

ChiefPlanner

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It was reduced to a 1 train operation at the lowest point , giving a roughly 45 min headway....
 

03_179

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Thanks all,

If anyone has timetables from the 1980s they could scan or photograph I'd be very grateful.
 

Lucan

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The 8-EPB formation in that photo is clearly on the Wimbledon and Sutton (at the point where it diverged from the goods lines) - so the train was going to West Croydon but continuing thence to London Bridge.
Yes, it would have been working the Holborn Viaduct-Herne Hill-Tooting-Wimbledon-Sutton-W.Croydon - London Bridge loop (or vice-versa). The train announcements never gave the entire route because depending where you started from and going to it would have been quicker to go in the opposite direction.

As a child in the 1960's, I recall that the West Croydon - Wimbledon service was operated on weekdays by two 2EPBs, crossing between Mitcham and Mitcham Junction, most of the rest of the line being single. Before Mitcham Station was singled because of the retaining wall collapse, and it was all semaphore and tokens, the two trains usually stopped side-by-side at Mitcham. It was probably a single train on Sundays.

I grew up within earshot of Mitcham Station (I could hear steam locos shunting in the goods yard), and my mother would often boast that it was the oldest railway station in the world. The claim sounded far fetched to me; but I discovered later that it was true. I never heard it called "Winkle Line" though, and not sure I like it. Mitcham was famous for lavender (until the St Helier estate was built on the fields) : why not the "Lavender Line", or the "Wandle Line"?
 

03_179

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HI Lucan,

I have no idea why it was the Winkle Line. It was called that by staff at West Croydon a few times and when I joined BR in the 80s I worked in the TEB and they used to put the cancellation under that name.

Certainly the Wandle Line sounds a lot better.

Never realised that Mitch was the oldest station !

All of the old line as such has disappeared under Tramlink only the Wimbledon and West Croydon platforms remain although the Wimbledon ones are remodelled and the West Croydon one is filled in.
 

eastwestdivide

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Thanks all,

If anyone has timetables from the 1980s they could scan or photograph I'd be very grateful.
From the 1978 GB timetable:
GB TT 1978.jpg

And from the 1985 ABC Rail Guide:
ABC guide 1985.jpg

Services finished early in the evening, didn't they!

Also, around that period (late 70s-early 80s), there was a grand total of two of the BR-type 2-EPBs allocated to Selhurst specifically for this service. I think 5753 and 5754. All the others were Slade Green or Wimbledon.
 

03_179

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Awesome thanks very much :)

Only two units allocated - Wonder what they did if one failed ?
 

Thebaz

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I grew up in the area and would often see a 2EPB and later a 456 in the bay at West Croydon whilst waiting with my parents for the train back to Carshalton Beeches. I even rode on it a few times. The bay was definitely longer than 2 cars; in fact I'm sure I saw a 455 in there once though that maybe down to the haze of distant memory.

By the end the service was reduced to one unit and 40 minute intervals for several years. There was no Sunday service and hadn't been for some considerable time - indeed Mitcham Junction station used to be closed on Sundays and trains via Hackbridge didn't stop there either. My guess was that Sunday service stopped around the same time the two-unit half-hourly service stopped.
 

03_179

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What would the Train IDs be roughly in each direction?

2?00 onwards maybe ?
 

etr221

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I recall seeing 455 working coming into West Croydon off the Mitcham Jn line - this during the Railtrack signallers strikes of 1995-1996, as a rerouted train from Victoria to WCR - was on Victoria signalbox all the way.

And in earlier years there was a 20 minute frequency (2 min turnrounds!) during peak hours.
 

ChiefPlanner

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Only line , where off peak , I have known a train stop in section for the driver and guard (both in the front cab) - to collect golf balls off the trackside in plastic buckets, before setting off for West Croydon again. Very bucolic - hardly anyone on board anyway ....
 

eastwestdivide

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Selhurst surely - there were some other 2EPB operating Addiscombe , Tattenham Corner and Selsdon at one time.
Don't know, quite possibly.
But I think Addiscombe and Selsdon were Slade Green EPBs, off the SE division weren't they?
Looking in the 1981 stock book, Selhurst only had two BR-type 2-EPBs (57xx) allocated, 5753 and 5754, which were the regulars on this line.
Selhurst did also have the SR-type (56xx) that worked to Tattenham Corner - did they ever work the Wimbledon line? Can't say I've ever seen a photo.
 

ChiefPlanner

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Don't know, quite possibly.
But I think Addiscombe and Selsdon were Slade Green EPBs, off the SE division weren't they?
Looking in the 1981 stock book, Selhurst only had two BR-type 2-EPBs (57xx) allocated, 5753 and 5754, which were the regulars on this line.
Selhurst did also have the SR-type (56xx) that worked to Tattenham Corner - did they ever work the Wimbledon line? Can't say I've ever seen a photo.

Senility creeping in - overlooked the Southeastern and Central Divisions there then ! - well spotted.
 

30907

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And in earlier years there was a 20 minute frequency (2 min turnrounds!) during peak hours.

Thanks for the reminder. The 1958 and 1961 Summer timetables show these, along with evening and Sunday services. They had gone by 1971, possibly at the big shakeup in 1967.
 

ChiefPlanner

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Literally the "2" trains.

Saw the very last one off Wimbledon , had PTS etc in those days and the station staff provided some detonators in true railway tradition , but failed to put them down as it was rapidly approaching departure time and despite the (young) driver being OK with it , I was not prepared to have / cause even a 2 min late start on the very last train off Wimbledon. Packed solid , as one would expect.
 
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