Can I use Tramlink?

[DegenerationX]

Hello All - I am seeking some assistance. This morning I was travelling from Buxted to Sutton (London). My usual route is to travel from Buxted to East Croydon, either walk or use the Tram from East Croydon to West Croydon and then a train from West Croydon to Sutton.

I have been travelling this route for a while now and usually use a weekly pass, however today I just had an anytime return. Not for the first time, today my ticket was inspected whilst on the Tramlink stretch of the journey, I was asked to accompany the inspector off the tram and told that my ticket was not valid. He also pointed me to a sign on the platform, which indicated National Rail tickets are not acceptable. He took possession of the outward portion of my ticket and went on to ask me for email address so that a penalty fare could be issued. I refused and left the Tram stop.

Having now checked the National Rail Enquiries website for the suggested alternative route home, it has detailed the very same journey I took this morning but in reverse (via Tramlink) - I am now very confused about what I can and cannot do, can anyone help?

 

[rdwarr]

When you click on "details" on the NRE site, does it come up with a journey including Tramlink that also says "You need to buy more than one ticket for this journey" in the top section? That's the bit that means your train ticket isn't valid for the tram bit.

 

[Realfish]

When you click on "details" on the NRE site, does it come up with a journey including Tramlink that also says "You need to buy more than one ticket for this journey" in the top section? That's the bit that means your train ticket isn't valid for the tram bit.

Yes I've just seen that. But as the OP says the NRE site offers the itinerary via Tramlink, and that additional ticket message is tucked away unemboldened alongside other, higher profile messages. I have to say that I would have missed it too and found myself in the same situation. The message needs to be more obvious and more explicit, not that Tramlink will see it as their issue.

 

[Romilly]

When I look on NRE, it simply doesn't offer fares for journeys that include the Croydon trams.

 

[najaB]

But as the OP says the NRE site offers the itinerary via Tramlink, and that additional ticket message is tucked away unemboldened alongside other, higher profile messages.

Key thing though is that it doesn't offer the itinerary in combination with a ticket.

 

[DegenerationX]

Thanks for your help guys - I have had another look and now noted that it does indeed say that more than one ticket would be required. I will from now on respect the rules and walk between East and West Croydon - however, I still feel that the website could be clearer, I had already purchased a ticket so was only looking for route info, not fares. I think that the ticket should explicity state 'not via Tramlink' in the same way that tickets I have bought in the past say something along the lines of 'not via London'.

Will my ticket now be traced from this morning for the purposes of issuing a penalty fare?

 

[najaB]

I will from now on respect the rules and walk between East and West Croydon - however, I still feel that the website could be clearer, I had already purchased a ticket so was only looking for route info, not fares.

And the route was valid (in terms of times).

 

[221129]

Did the inspector take any details? Name address etc?

 

[rdwarr]

Yes I've just seen that. But as the OP says the NRE site offers the itinerary via Tramlink, and that additional ticket message is tucked away unemboldened alongside other, higher profile messages. I have to say that I would have missed it too and found myself in the same situation. The message needs to be more obvious and more explicit, not that Tramlink will see it as their issue.

Yes, I agree that it's not at all obvious; either what it means or how to buy the extra ticket.

 

[DegenerationX]

No details were taken from me at all - he is just in possession of the outward portion of the ticket, which I purchased using my debit card.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

No details were taken from me at all - he is just in possession of the outward portion of the ticket, which I purchased using my debit card.

Did you purchase it online and then pick it up, or get it at a ticket machine?

 

[Silverdale]

Will my ticket now be traced from this morning for the purposes of issuing a penalty fare?

You might be traced via your debit card purchase, but for the purposes of dealing with the fact you refused to pay a penalty fare.

 

[DegenerationX]

I bought the ticket at the machine at the station

 

[PeterC]

Yes I've just seen that. But as the OP says the NRE site offers the itinerary via Tramlink, and that additional ticket message is tucked away unemboldened alongside other, higher profile messages. I have to say that I would have missed it too and found myself in the same situation. The message needs to be more obvious and more explicit, [bold]not that Tramlink will see it as their issue[/bold].

Because it isn't Tramlink's issue. NRE chose to publish an intinary including an external body outside of the railway ticketing system, any resulting problems are their responsibility, nobody elses.

 

[221129]

If no details were taken at the time then nothing further will come of it, however they will likely be on the look out for the OP in the future.

 

[Clip]

Theres an announcement in the trams when leaving east croydon stating that not all national rail tickets are valid on them.

 

[30907]

Yes, I agree that it's not at all obvious; either what it means or how to buy the extra ticket.

"No fares available" seems clear enough to me.

 

[Merseysider]

You might be traced via your debit card purchase, but for the purposes of dealing with the fact you refused to pay a penalty fare.

Unlikely to happen, thankfully.

 

[superalbs]

Theres an announcement in the trams when leaving east croydon stating that not all national rail tickets are valid on them.

Isn't that a bit too late?

 

[mmh]

Theres an announcement in the trams when leaving east croydon stating that not all national rail tickets are valid on them.

Having used the trams for, good lord, I feel old, 18 years, I've heard that annocement many times. It doesn't always play, but when it does it's in the supplementary style female voice which is used for "you could alight here for blah or change for blah"

I think the full wording is something like "not all national rail tickets are valid on tramlink. Please ensure your ticket has zone 3, 4, 5 or 6 validity, or you may be liable for a penalty fare".

By the time you've heard all that you'll be at George Street and being "asked" to leave with at least two RPI's. They don't come individually.

I'd like to see which "national rail" tickets are valid on Tramlink. I suspect none, so the announcement is even more questionable

 

[MikeWh]

I'd like to see which "national rail" tickets are valid on Tramlink. I suspect none, so the announcement is even more questionable

National Rail tickets which include a travelcard element.

 

[Be3G]

There're some point-to-point tickets with Tramlink as the route too (e.g. Raynes Park to Hayes), which I have a feeling are a kind of historical relic based on the fact that Tramlink took over some old railway lines. Which means that if mmh was accurate in his quoting of the on-board ticket validity announcement, it's another case of incorrect ticketing advice being given by such announcements.

 

[najaB]

Which means that if mmh was accurate in his quoting of the on-board ticket validity announcement, it's another case of incorrect ticketing advice being given by such announcements.

What's incorrect? Not all National Rail tickets are valid and tickets with Zone 3, 4, 5 or 6 are valid. They never said that those are the only tickets that are valid. If your ticket isn't valid you may be liable to a Penalty Fare.

 

[causton]

A quick Google and through a Freedom of Information request:

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/457762/response/1108165/attach/3/Trams Announcements Draft 1 NB.pdf

Not all tickets issues[sic] by National Rail are valid on London Tramlink. Please check your ticket carefully. Make sure it either states to or from “Tramlink” or has Zone 3, 4, 5 or 6 validity. If you are travelling on a ticket not valid on the trams you are liable for a penalty fare.

So it is mostly correct? It should be to, from or via "Tramlink" really but I think it gets the message across.

 

[MikeWh]

Looking on brfares, the via Tramlink fare is a wonderful anomaly. Almost all rail fares within zones 1-6 are set by ATOC to avoid claims of colusion, but this one is set by...

SWR? No
SER? Nope
Southern? Yes, even though you don't travel on any of their trains.

It's also extremely expensive.

 

[30907]

Looking on brfares, the via Tramlink fare is a wonderful anomaly. Almost all rail fares within zones 1-6 are set by ATOC to avoid claims of colusion, but this one is set by...

SWR? No
SER? Nope
Southern? Yes, even though you don't travel on any of their trains.

It's also extremely expensive.

Very odd. Seems to be available between stations on the Mid Kent line and stations in SW suburbia (haven't checked further), also from stations on the Orpington line. Single price is around the via London PLUS the paper single tram fare.
It can't be an historic fare, as pre Tramlink you'd have had to walk from Addiscombe to West Croydon or from the SE faff around via Crystal Palace or Herne Hill.
I can only presume that someone spotted the new journey opportunities and decided passengers would be prepared to pay for the convenience.
Possibly the fare predates Oyster fares on NR?

 

[Be3G]

What's incorrect? Not all National Rail tickets are valid and tickets with Zone 3, 4, 5 or 6 are valid. They never said that those are the only tickets that are valid. If your ticket isn't valid you may be liable to a Penalty Fare.

I wondered if someone would pick me up on that. My opinion was that the use of the word ‘ensure’ in the originally quoted announcement made the strongest possible implication that the only valid tickets were ones mentioning zones 3–6. Whilst I can't quote any examples verbatim, my sense is that the ‘may be liable…’ wording is used across the railway industry to mean ‘will be liable unless there is a very good demonstrable reason not to be so’ (e.g. announcements along the lines of ‘please buy a ticket before boarding or you may be liable for a penalty fare’) and it was (again) my opinion that a 100% valid ticket should be not relegated to the uncertainty of such a get-out clause.

Having said all of that, I've now seen the announcement from the FoI request so I'm much happier that it's correct and pretty much all of the above can be ignored!

 

[Busaholic]

Very odd. Seems to be available between stations on the Mid Kent line and stations in SW suburbia (haven't checked further), also from stations on the Orpington line. Single price is around the via London PLUS the paper single tram fare.
It can't be an historic fare, as pre Tramlink you'd have had to walk from Addiscombe to West Croydon or from the SE faff around via Crystal Palace or Herne Hill.
I can only presume that someone spotted the new journey opportunities and decided passengers would be prepared to pay for the convenience.
Possibly the fare predates Oyster fares on NR?

It doesn't have anything to do with West Croydon to Wimbledon being an old railway route, I wouldn't think. I suspect the fares were set up- in the earliest days of Tramlink, and I'll go off a bit leftfield and suggest that Sir Peter Hendy, or, rather, the company he worked for may have had an influence. Here's my reasoning:- Peter Hendy was head of the Centrewest bus operating company when bus operations in London were first localised, then privatised, and was in charge in the 1980s when the Orpington area Roundabout network was created: by the time Tramlink started Centrewest had been bought by First, still with Hendy in charge, and he was very much part of the team that brought trams to Croydon and the wider area. He was soon poached by TfL, or whatever they were then called, to head up their bus operations, but he's always been an 'integrated transport' man so I think it's highly likely he saw the benefit of allowing passengers from Orpington/Bromley to access trams at Beckenham Junction and from Hayes/West Wickham at Elmers End without the bother of separate tickets. I could be utterly wrong, but I believe it was the sort of attention to detail that he was renowned for (in those days, anyway!)

 

[30907]

I wondered if someone would pick me up on that. My opinion was that the use of the word ‘ensure’ in the originally quoted announcement made the strongest possible implication that the only valid tickets were ones mentioning zones 3–6. Whilst I can't quote any examples verbatim, my sense is that the ‘may be liable…’ wording is used across the railway industry to mean ‘will be liable unless there is a very good demonstrable reason not to be so’ (e.g. announcements along the lines of ‘please buy a ticket before boarding or you may be liable for a penalty fare’) and it was (again) my opinion that a 100% valid ticket should be not relegated to the uncertainty of such a get-out clause.

Having said all of that, I've now seen the announcement from the FoI request so I'm much happier that it's correct and pretty much all of the above can be ignored!

The through fares from SE to SW are routed TRAMLINK 3 or 4 so are covered.

 

[Lockwood]

A quick Google and through a Freedom of Information request:

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/457762/response/1108165/attach/3/Trams Announcements Draft 1 NB.pdf

Nice find. I like this one...

Hold Tight.
The trams accelerate and break very quickly. Please use the handles.

Good advert for their service...

Also, I went on NRE and asked for Raynes Park to Hayes and all routes offered were via Waterloo