Campaign to restore passenger services on the Middlewich Link Line

[Joseph_Locke]

It is vital in helping show non railway minded people (aka purse string holders, and consultation form fillers), like Borough Councillors and LEP staff (at least 20k from each just put up for the study) and the public, that this line has not just freight but passenger trains already.

I'd find that a bit patronising, if I was included in your list.

Not just little local trains either, massive Virgin Trains. That gets people seeing what’s possible and wanting it.

What, that it's possible to divert trains through Middlewich, when convenient to others, that are never going to call at a Middlewich station? I bet that goes right to the top of their wish-lists.

So it has a direct connection with getting funding, people demanding services and also working to achieve them.

No, I think that's indirect. Diverting trains is probably going to have a slight negative effect on the attractiveness of a Middlewich service, as the punctuality of such a service could be jeopardised on days when those big shiny CLASS 1 trains are using the line.

Don’t forget, even on this board fairly recently (old thread) even railway people were saying ‘no chance/Meh); locals has forgotten the line was there, Knutsford, Hale, Altrincham and Northwich didn’t realise they could still go direct to Crewe, Gadbrook Park maybe hadn’t thought about having a station, the BCs and LEP weren’t pushing for reinstatement and only one MP was involved.

Look at the state of play now.

Yes, your local press has comprehensively lied about what a senior NR representative said at a public meeting, and it didn't go down well when we picked up the story and asked him about it. I'd say you were just as far away as ever, sorry.

Once the business case is done and people get consultated it’s vital they don’t just go ‘eh?/meh’ but fill in the form and say what they want and they’re more likely to do that now they’re consistently seeing what’s possible

Which is: that there is a railway (albeit a slow single track), and (by dint of being a handy diversion route for the West Coast) you can run trains on it? Not arguing with you there. I personally can't wait for the next business case which, just like the last one, will so underestimate the costs and so overestimate the revenue that a literally incredible BCR will result. I for one will be fascinated to see that consultated (sic).

 

[no commute yet]

I'd find that a bit patronising, if I was included in your list.

What, that it's possible to divert trains through Middlewich, when convenient to others, that are never going to call at a Middlewich station? I bet that goes right to the top of their wish-lists.

No, I think that's indirect. Diverting trains is probably going to have a slight negative effect on the attractiveness of a Middlewich service, as the punctuality of such a service could be jeopardised on days when those big shiny CLASS 1 trains are using the line.

Yes, your local press has comprehensively lied about what a senior NR representative said at a public meeting, and it didn't go down well when we picked up the story and asked him about it. I'd say you were just as far away as ever, sorry.

Which is: that there is a railway (albeit a slow single track), and (by dint of being a handy diversion route for the West Coast) you can run trains on it? Not arguing with you there. I personally can't wait for the next business case which, just like the last one, will so underestimate the costs and so overestimate the revenue that a literally incredible BCR will result. I for one will be fascinated to see that consultated (sic).

Joseph, I think you and I see the world differently. Clearly councillors aren’t just purse string holders and the public aren’t
just consultation complet[er]ers.

If the press lied about what the NR man said presumably an apology was requested and an apology printed?

It isn’t ‘a next business case’ in the industry standard sense- it’s the first one. The last industry standard report was a just feasibility study in 2009. The campaign group wrote their own ‘business case’, which they hoped would act as a prospectus to get more people engaged - which it did.

 

[6Gman]

It was just a charter pathed along there, I can't quite see what that proves.

I was about to say the same. Running an enthusiasts' special along a line as a one-off is a long, long, long way from a timetabled service.

 

[pemma]

I think whoever mans the MidCheshireRail Twitter feed gets too easily excited. The feed seems to contain a tweet every time there's any movement on the Middlewich branch with an attempt to link the movement to the reintroduction of passenger trains. This happens whether the movement is a diverted passenger train, a freight movement, a Network Rail movement or just a loco on it's own. The line's been open since 1868 and it wasn't closed by the Beeching cuts, the Beeching cuts only removed the passenger services. Therefore I fail to see what the excitement is with the route seeing some services which aren't regular passenger trains. I don't think someone campaigning for a bus service would get excited every time a lorry or a private hire vehicle goes along the route they want a bus service on.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I suppose it is surprising that the aspirational reopening lobby have not gone "the whole hog" and also demanded the reopening of both Billinge Green Halt and Cledford Bridge Halt, built to the highest standards, and both having "Friends of the Halt" societies to ensure compliance.

 

[furnessvale]

I suppose it is surprising that the aspirational reopening lobby have not gone "the whole hog" and also demanded the reopening of both Billinge Green Halt and Cledford Bridge Halt, built to the highest standards, and both having "Friends of the Halt" societies to ensure compliance.

I don't think the aspiration to serve Middlewich is TOO excessive.

Nearby Northwich has a population of 19500 and has two stations. Middlewich has a population of 13600. The line through Middlewich is in use and fit for passenger services. Although it is not simply a case of an extra stop on an existing service, it has a lot more going for it than some proposals where not only has the track gone, but in some cases, bridges have been removed.

 

[pemma]

I don't think the aspiration to serve Middlewich is TOO excessive.

Nearby Northwich has a population of 19500 and has two stations. Middlewich has a population of 13600. The line through Middlewich is in use and fit for passenger services. Although it is not simply a case of an extra stop on an existing service, it has a lot more going for it than some proposals where not only has the track gone, but in some cases, bridges have been removed.

I think the problems with the campaign are:
1. There's too much of a focus on people from Altrincham, Knutsford and Northwich using the branch to connect with the WCML at Crewe. There's alternative ways of connecting those 3 towns to the WCML - a new interchange station in the Hartford area or a service to Warrington Bank Quay (using existing infrastructure.) The campaign needs to demonstrate why the Middlewich option is the best of the 3.
2. There's too much comparison between Knutsford and Middlewich. Knutsford may be a similar sized town and gets over 500,000 rail journeys per annum but that doesn't mean Middlewich will get that many passengers as very few towns the size of Knutsford get that many passengers. Knutsford's usage benefits from being closer to Manchester than Middlewich, having a high school which many pupils from Trafford use and being close to Barclay's Radbroke Hall site (with Barclay's running shuttle buses from the town to Radbroke Hall.)

 

[furnessvale]

I think the problems with the campaign are:
1. There's too much of a focus on people from Altrincham, Knutsford and Northwich using the branch to connect with the WCML at Crewe. There's alternative ways of connecting those 3 towns to the WCML - a new interchange station in the Hartford area or a service to Warrington Bank Quay (using existing infrastructure.) The campaign needs to demonstrate why the Middlewich option is the best of the 3.
2. There's too much comparison between Knutsford and Middlewich. Knutsford may be a similar sized town and get over 500,000 journeys per annum but that doesn't mean Middlewich will get that many passengers as very few towns the size of Knutsford get that many passengers. Knutsford's usage benefits from being closer to Manchester than Middlewich, having a high school which many pupils from Trafford use and being close to Barclay's Radbroke Hall site (with Barclay's running shuttle buses from the town to Radbroke Hall.)

Indeed, I do not support the reopening per se, but I believe it deserves more than post #575 allows.

I do wonder how it compares with Fleetwood, Haverhill and Wisbech, all requiring extensive infrastructure over and above any new stations.

 

[The Ham]

There's too much comparison between Knutsford and Middlewich. Knutsford may be a similar sized town and gets over 500,000 rail journeys per annum but that doesn't mean Middlewich will get that many passengers as very few towns the size of Knutsford get that many passengers. Knutsford's usage benefits from being closer to Manchester than Middlewich, having a high school which many pupils from Trafford use and being close to Barclay's Radbroke Hall site (with Barclay's running shuttle buses from the town to Radbroke Hall.)

However there's at least one location with more passengers but a smaller population (even adding in some of the villages around it).

As such it's not very unreasonable to believe that it could meet the same level of passengers, however I would also say that just because one location has that level of passengers that there could be lots of reasons why a station of choice would have a much lower level of passengers.

 

[no commute yet]

The business case made all the relevant points but the highlights for this discussion would be:
70% of the Middlewich population works
70% of those workers commute out (that'll be by car because the buses aren't great and don't go to...Manchester for example.)
Middlewich has no 6th form or college so all the further education students have to commute out -which should make for a healthy number of passengers before we look at business and leisure trips.
What about all the Winsfordonians that will use Middlewich for Knutsford, Altrincham and the Metro to Salford Quays the way Middlewichers use Winsford for Liverpool (airport) South Parkway and Liverpool.
Gadbrook Park usage: 5k workers employed there - no station, railway line runs behind the back of Barclays, chronic congestion.
Knutsford is 7 miles away - with the M6 taking minutes to get people to the Bowden M56 Link there's no evidence Middlewich is less of a Manchester commuter town than Knutsford. In fact with far less employment available in Middlewich it's probably more so.
Anyhoo, here's the business case the campaign team wrote:
http://www.mcrua.org.uk/chairmansbl.../2016/09/MCRL-Campaign-Business-Case-v1.0.pdf

 

[6Gman]

Middlewich has no 6th form or college so all the further education students have to commute out -which should make for a healthy number of passengers before we look at business and leisure trips.

I'm guessing Middlewich 16-18 year olds go to:

Sixth Form in Sandbach - station inconvenient.
South Cheshire College (Crewe) - station inconvenient.
Mid Cheshire College (Hartford) - only practical if you go west curve at Northwich and reverse at Hartford.
Knutsford Sixth Form - could work.

Or they can get a bus which takes them to the door ...

 

[Greybeard33]

I'm guessing Middlewich 16-18 year olds go to:

Sixth Form in Sandbach - station inconvenient.
South Cheshire College (Crewe) - station inconvenient.
Mid Cheshire College (Hartford) - only practical if you go west curve at Northwich and reverse at Hartford.
Knutsford Sixth Form - could work.

Or they can get a bus which takes them to the door ...

You missed out Sir John Deane's Sixth Form College, which is a 25 minute walk from Northwich or Greenbank stations.

 

[6Gman]

You missed out Sir John Deane's Sixth Form College, which is a 25 minute walk from Northwich or Greenbank stations.

Good point. Again, not well served by a reinstated rail service.

 

[6Gman]

Anyhoo, here's the business case the campaign team wrote:
http://www.mcrua.org.uk/chairmansbl.../2016/09/MCRL-Campaign-Business-Case-v1.0.pdf

£700,000 for infrastructure work, including a station at Middlewich?

I think not.

 

[pemma]

I'm guessing Middlewich 16-18 year olds go to:

Sixth Form in Sandbach - station inconvenient.
South Cheshire College (Crewe) - station inconvenient.
Mid Cheshire College (Hartford) - only practical if you go west curve at Northwich and reverse at Hartford.
Knutsford Sixth Form - could work.

Or they can get a bus which takes them to the door ...

Mid Cheshire College is now Warrington & Vale Royal College and from September only a very limited number of courses will be offered there and in 2 years time it will be closed with all courses transferred to Winsford and Warrington.

Sixth form students won't be a high number, you'll probably have more 11-16s going to St Nicholas than sixth form students going anywhere.

Also worth remembering what used to be Hartford High is now a designated CofE school, so will probably have a wider catchment area than it used to.

 

[pemma]

You missed out Sir John Deane's Sixth Form College, which is a 25 minute walk from Northwich or Greenbank stations.

It seems Middlewich doesn't have a designated bus to Sir John Deane's as they talk about the regular Arriva bus service between Middlewich and Northwich on their website (which does stop very close to the college.)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I was wondering if South Trafford College had many students from the Knutsford area on the type of courses offered there?

 

[pemma]

I was wondering if South Trafford College had many students from the Knutsford area on the type of courses offered there?

What was South Trafford is now just know as Trafford College having merged with what used to be North Trafford but it still has it's Timperley campus. It used to be the better performing pupils from Knutsford either stayed at their existing schools for Sixth Form or went to Sir John Deane's, while the less well performing pupils generally went to Mid Cheshire (which got nicknamed Dim Cheshire by sixth formers at John Deane's and St Nicholas.) There were a few who went to South Trafford and other colleges like Macclesfield and Reaseheath but they each got a small number of pupils. With financial support for transport for sixth formers being withdrawn by the local council, South Cheshire college have tried to attract students from the Knutsford area by running a free bus.

 

[6Gman]

What was South Trafford is now just know as Trafford College having merged with what used to be North Trafford but it still has it's Timperley campus. It used to be the better performing pupils from Knutsford either stayed at their existing schools for Sixth Form or went to Sir John Deane's, while the less well performing pupils generally went to Mid Cheshire (which got nicknamed Dim Cheshire by sixth formers at John Deane's and St Nicholas.) There were a few who went to South Trafford and other colleges like Macclesfield and Reaseheath but they each got a small number of pupils. With financial support for transport for sixth formers being withdrawn by the local council, South Cheshire college have tried to attract students from the Knutsford area by running a free bus.

Ah, that would also explain why Reaseheath plugs its free bus services.

Anyway, this discussion of mid-Cheshire educational provision is very interesting but I think we can conclude that the absence of 16-18 educational provision in Middlewich is unlikely to be a significant factor in the business case for a reopening.

 

[The_Engineer]

A positive spin on the recent parliamentary exchange is now in Rail magazine - see dlvr.it/Qb90NW

 

[6Gman]

A positive spin on the recent parliamentary exchange is now in Rail magazine - see dlvr.it/Qb90NW

Interesting that Grayling expresses a view that it should be "a commuter line into Manchester" rather than any other virtues - southbound links via Crewe; commuting to Gadbrook.

 

[backontrack]

Interesting that Grayling expresses a view that it should be "a commuter line into Manchester" rather than any other virtues - southbound links via Crewe; commuting to Gadbrook.

He's probably completely ignorant of the nuances of the situation.

 

[Ianno87]

Interesting that Grayling expresses a view that it should be "a commuter line into Manchester" rather than any other virtues - southbound links via Crewe; commuting to Gadbrook.

Targeting Manchester is probably its best shot at it making a vaguely credible Webtag-compliant business case, in all fairness

 

[LOL The Irony]

Knutsford Sixth Form - could work.

Is the 6th Form at Knutsford Academy really that popular?

 

[Altfish]

One significant advantage when (if) HS2 arrives at Crewe will be access by rail from the likes of Altrincham, Hale, Knutsford, Northwich and of course Middlewich without having to go via Manchester, Stockport or Chester.

 

[pemma]

Interesting that Grayling expresses a view that it should be "a commuter line into Manchester" rather than any other virtues - southbound links via Crewe; commuting to Gadbrook.

Targeting Manchester is probably its best shot at it making a vaguely credible Webtag-compliant business case, in all fairness

Yep. Business people (who make up a lot of the London travel from North West stations) try to avoid changing if possible and prefer to drive or get taxis to stations with direct services. Doubling the frequency of the Altrincham-Wilmslow-Knutsford bus, routing it via Wilmslow station and using high spec buses had virtually no effect on freeing up parking spaces at Wilmslow station or reducing the number of people using taxis.

 

[TheSel]

He's probably completely ignorant of the nuances of the situation.

The last six words of that statement could be removed as totally unnecessary. As could the second!

 

[daodao]

Business people (who make up a lot of the London travel from North West stations) try to avoid changing if possible and prefer to drive or get taxis to stations with direct services. Doubling the frequency of the Altrincham-Wilmslow-Knutsford bus, routing it via Wilmslow station and using high spec buses had virtually no effect on freeing up parking spaces at Wilmslow station or reducing the number of people using taxis.

As someone who commutes regularly (2-3 days per week) from Altrincham to Crewe, and who also works in Northwich on one afternoon per week (en route back from Crewe), re-opening this railway line would be of no benefit to me for routine travel. The stations in Crewe and Northwich are very poorly sited to encourage new local rail use, being some distance from their respective town centres. From a personal perspective, they are even further from my places of work in these 2 towns, and I also live just over 1 mile from Altrincham station.

If I ever need to make long-distance journeys by rail to the centres of other major cities with reasonable rail services, I drive to suitable railheads with direct services, e.g. Hartford (for Birmingham/Liverpool) or Wilmslow (for London/Cardiff), or use Metrolink to M/c Piccadilly/Victoria for destinations to the north/east of M/c (e.g. Leeds/Hull). I dislike changing trains, particularly when using split/advanced tickets.

 

[backontrack]

The last six words of that statement could be removed as totally unnecessary. As could the second!

You're right. Of course he's ignorant...probably deliberately deliberately, too!

 

[no commute yet]

Hi all, not long left to respond to the LEP transport strategy consultation- it ends on the 6th of Aug

http://www.871candwep.co.uk/resources/draft-transport-strategy/