43002 to NRM collection repaint?

[nat67]

If 43002 is to be going to the National Collection its therefore it should have the BR blue repainted as that is not the original blue it came out as in 1976. Obviously if it is not going to the national collection then fine.
It would also be good if not already, but to have 43185 as well as they could pair them up back-to-back if there is room to fit a pair of power cars somewhere.

From 1976 at York.

To 2016 at St Phillips Marsh open day.

 

[pdeaves]

If 43002 is to be going to the National Collection its therefore it should have the BR blue repainted as that is not the original blue it came out as in 1976. Obviously if it is not going to the national collection then fine.
It would also be good if not already, but to have 43185 as well as they could pair them up back-to-back if there is room to fit a pair of power cars somewhere.

From 1976 at York.

To 2016 at St Phillips Marsh open day.

1. The NRM doesn't have to have the original livery. Throughout the item's preservation life it may carry different liveries anyway (Flying Scotsman comes to mind; I am sure it's had more than one livery whilst under NRM stewardship).
2. Excluding later modifications (e.g. light clusters) what is the difference between the vehicles in the photos? The shades may look very slightly different but that could be the difference between 'then' and 'now' photographic technology.

Just my thoughts.

 

[DarloRich]

If 43002 is to be going to the National Collection its therefore it should have the BR blue repainted as that is not the original blue it came out as in 1976. Obviously if it is not going to the national collection then fine.
It would also be good if not already, but to have 43185 as well as they could pair them up back-to-back if there is room to fit a pair of power cars somewhere.

Ok. Is this a question or a statement? What will happen if the NRM decide that FGW livery is the best fit?

 

[E759]

At the Crewe works open-day I'm pretty sure the first couple of power cars on the production line were black and yellow. I may have a Kodachrome in the loft to prove/disprove. Always wondered if the black was just an undercoat or an idea that was blocked by the powers that be?

 

[XCTurbostar]

Not sure what the purpose of this thread is really.. However, I will say that it is very likely that the NRM will get at least one. The GWR power cars are the most original variants.

Throughout history, the most significant locos (from any class) tend to be the first and last built, of which 43002 is to be taken off lease and is owned by Angel Trains and 43198 which is to be retained and is owned by GWR.

 

[edwin_m]

At the Crewe works open-day I'm pretty sure the first couple of power cars on the production line were black and yellow. I may have a Kodachrome in the loft to prove/disprove. Always wondered if the black was just an undercoat or an idea that was blocked by the powers that be?

I seem to recall there was a stamp issued featuring it in yellow and black, but I don't think it ever ran in that livery.

 

[pdeaves]

I seem to recall there was a stamp issued featuring it in yellow and black, but I don't think it ever ran in that livery.

See this post (https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/gwr-power-cars-in-heritage-liveries.164000/#post-3452654) for image and previous discussion!
Yes, the first few initially carried black.

 

[GusB]

If 43002 is to be going to the National Collection its therefore it should have the BR blue repainted as that is not the original blue it came out as in 1976.

Excluding later modifications (e.g. light clusters) what is the difference between the vehicles in the photos? The shades may look very slightly different but that could be the difference between 'then' and 'now' photographic technology.

As @pdeaves suggests, photographic technology was certainly different back in 1976, and even with the technology of the day, I'd imagine that different quality films gave different results. Rail Blue seems to be one of these colours that can appear very different in photographs - lighting conditions, whether or not the loco/carriage in question is ex-works, or the lack of a good wash can determine whether it looks blue, as in the topmost photo in post #1, or show a more green-ish blue, as in the second photograph.

 

[Cowley]

As @pdeaves suggests, photographic technology was certainly different back in 1976, and even with the technology of the day, I'd imagine that different quality films gave different results. Rail Blue seems to be one of these colours that can appear very different in photographs - lighting conditions, whether or not the loco/carriage in question is ex-works, or the lack of a good wash can determine whether it looks blue, as in the topmost photo in post #1, or show a more green-ish blue, as in the second photograph.

I must admit that whenever I see 43002 (most recently last week) it looks pretty authentic to me. Especially with the exhaust stains on the yellow above the cab...

 

[GusB]

I knew there was a photo lurking somewhere with the front end in black/yellow, but I hadn't actually realised it was 43002:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/14581588@N05/7272237276/in/photostream/

(Not my photo - I did try to embed it, but it didn't work)

 

[theblackwatch]

Only 3 or 4 power cars gained the black band - it is mentioned in the 125 Group's excellent new book '125 - The Enduring Icon'. It is also noticeable from the pic linked to in #10 that the top of the cab dome was also painted black, rather than it being totally yellow.

If the OP wishes 43002 to be put back to original cosmetic condition if it is claimed for the National Collection, should it be repainted before or after the refitting of original light clusters, removal of the smoke deflector, re-inserting the guard's window and refitting of the guard's compartment, etc? (The point I am making here is that colour scheme is just one minor difference between the original condition and present - and I haven't mentioned anything mechanical...)

 

[nat67]

Ok. Is this a question or a statement? What will happen if the NRM decide that FGW livery is the best fit?

Yes that would be wrong.

 

[nat67]

As @pdeaves suggests, photographic technology was certainly different back in 1976, and even with the technology of the day, I'd imagine that different quality films gave different results. Rail Blue seems to be one of these colours that can appear very different in photographs - lighting conditions, whether or not the loco/carriage in question is ex-works, or the lack of a good wash can determine whether it looks blue, as in the topmost photo in post #1, or show a more green-ish blue, as in the second photograph.

But I have noticed this that when I have stood next to 43002 the blue looks more green than the BR blue you see on a class 31 or 47 but whether or not that was the original blue they put on the sets in 1976 on wards i'm not sure. I guess with the early photo at York it could look slightly different.

 

[nat67]

Not sure what the purpose of this thread is really.. However, I will say that it is very likely that the NRM will get at least one. The GWR power cars are the most original variants.

Throughout history, the most significant locos (from any class) tend to be the first and last built, of which 43002 is to be taken off lease and is owned by Angel Trains and 43198 which is to be retained and is owned by GWR.

So clearly they wont be getting 43198 so that's completely irrelevant to this.

 

[DarloRich]

Yes that would be wrong.

Why? It is up to them.

 

[nat67]

One little alteration if possible for 43002 would be that the exhaust's could be put back to there original form as shown in the photo's.

 

[nat67]

Why? It is up to them.

Well having a livery that has only just started to go from the GWML and be seen in the NRM would be a bit wired but really they could get another power and have one in Inter-City 125 Blue and the other perhaps 43165 could be that other one in FGW livery as its going off lease.

 

[43096]

Not sure what the purpose of this thread is really.. However, I will say that it is very likely that the NRM will get at least one. The GWR power cars are the most original variants.

Throughout history, the most significant locos (from any class) tend to be the first and last built, of which 43002 is to be taken off lease and is owned by Angel Trains and 43198 which is to be retained and is owned by GWR.

43198 is not owned by GWR. It is owned by FirstGroup (technically First Rail Holdings) and not by the TOC.

 

[Mick Davies]

At the Crewe works open-day I'm pretty sure the first couple of power cars on the production line were black and yellow. I may have a Kodachrome in the loft to prove/disprove. Always wondered if the black was just an undercoat or an idea that was blocked by the powers that be?

I began my apprenticeship at Crewe Works when the first few power cars were under construction and as far as I can remember W43002 to W43006 were all painted initially with the black band but I dont think they ever went out on test in this livery and W43007 was almost certainly the first to be painted straight into blue /yellow also I can definitely remember seeing it going past the works training training school coupled to another power car and my instructor/lecturer commenting that the blue version looked better and also most power cars went out on test in undercoat coupled to a mk2 brake coach

 

[FOCTOC]

43198 is not owned by GWR. It is owned by FirstGroup (technically First Rail Holdings) and not by the TOC.

Its not owned by either - its owned by a ROSCO, or 'leasing company'.

 

[theblackwatch]

Its not owned by either - its owned by a ROSCO, or 'leasing company'.

If you're calling First Group a ROSCO as well then, yes. 43198 was one of several power cars sold by Porterbrook to First in the early-mid 2000s.

 

[FOCTOC]

If you're calling First Group a ROSCO as well then, yes. 43198 was one of several power cars sold by Porterbrook to First in the early-mid 2000s.

Every days a school day!

 

[43096]

Every days a school day!

12 power cars and 42 trailers were sold, back in October 2004. Although there have been some swaps of power car and trailer ownership between First and Porterbrook since then, the totals remain the same*.

* excluding 43195 which has been sold to First for spares after being written off with accident damage.

 

[Flying Phil]

I must confess that, despite my love of steam, I am looking forward to seeing an HST (whatever livery) on the full length of the GCR when the South end is connected to the GCR(N). Mind you it will probably be going over an HST on the MML!

 

[SeanG]

Personally I think it would be nice to see it in a livery of one of the defunct privatised TOCs. We are approaching 30 years of privatisation now so some of it is definitely "in the past"

 

[zn1]

when a Vehicle is taken in to the national collection, it should be left as it is, no rebuilding back to "original" etc. 43002 really should when she is due to be retired, give her a proper repaint, clean up her cab, the engine room so its least clean and thats it. ready to be handed over for a well earned retirement and as ambassador and to tell the her sisters who served faithfully.

There is no need to reinstate the Valenta on 43002, or the guards van...these are all there on 41001.. the production vehicle clearly shows progress through her life in traffic..

43002 could and should be mated to 5 MK3 coaches (2 std,2 first and RMB) and her Mother 41001 to recreate a base HST from prototype to squadron.
but please dont mess with her...Modifications are done for a purpose, stripping back a vehicle to as built doesnt and has never made sense to me..unless there are plenty of spare vehicle and coach bodies,(and the cash) to rip to pieces to acheive that look..

just a thought

 

[SteveyBee131]

As @pdeaves suggests, photographic technology was certainly different back in 1976, and even with the technology of the day, I'd imagine that different quality films gave different results. Rail Blue seems to be one of these colours that can appear very different in photographs - lighting conditions, whether or not the loco/carriage in question is ex-works, or the lack of a good wash can determine whether it looks blue, as in the topmost photo in post #1, or show a more green-ish blue, as in the second photograph.

From what I've read and heard, it's not just photography technology etc yhat made a difference. I've heard from numerous places that there were probably as many shades of BR blue as there were depots and workshops that painted it, so it could also depend on where a particular vehicle was painted as to what shade it was too!

 

[xotGD]

From what I've read and heard, it's not just photography technology etc yhat made a difference. I've heard from numerous places that there were probably as many shades of BR blue as there were depots and workshops that painted it, so it could also depend on where a particular vehicle was painted as to what shade it was too!

50 Shades of Blue - the secret diaries of a BR painter!

 

[a_c_skinner]

43002 could and should be mated to 5 MK3 coaches (2 std,2 first and RMB) and her Mother 41001 to recreate a base HST from prototype to squadron.

Yes, that would seem a nice project and a nice way to display the 41 and a 43 and some Mk IIIs

 

[43096]

There is no need to reinstate the Valenta on 43002, or the guards van...these are all there on 41001.. the production vehicle clearly shows progress through her life in traffic..

Where would the NRM get a Valenta for 43002 from anyway?