EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[Geezertronic]

So despite numerous quotes relating to Brexit in the article, taken from the documents concerned, you insist that it has nothing to do with Brexit?

You do have to wonder though why there was no mention of Brexit in the BBC News article linked to from 18 May 2018 though.

Even the Sky News article from 21st May (https://news.sky.com/story/new-plan-to-avoid-cross-channel-congestion-revealed-11380915) mentions that:

Though the Government denies any direct connection with Brexit, this interim solution was earmarked for delivery before any possible change to customs arrangements in March 2019.

It followed the likely loss of a judicial review into the Government's favoured permanent successor to "Operation Stack"

.....

A Government source said that "this would be needed regardless of Brexit" and pointed out that a repetition of Operation Stack had been avoided on several occasions.

With a good old dose of fear-mongering mixed in:

Stephen Doughty, a Labour MP campaigning for a "People's Vote" on the Brexit deal, said the move showed that "Brexit threatens to make 30-mile queues a daily reality

 

[fowler9]

Said it before and I'll say it again. It recently took me three hours to cross from Bosnia in to Croatia at a border crossing that was dead, and we weren't even carrying cargo. I don't think it is fear mongering to say that if we crash out of the EU then crossing the border both ways could become significantly more troublesome.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Ah yes that old chestnut again.

Project fear, punishment budget not to mention the media “establishment” was firmly in remain’s favour - bollox right back!

Funny how the only people we ever hear saying leavers didn’t know what they were voting for is remainers.

The cold, hard, facts are the majority of leave voters have a lower level of educational attainment than the remain supporters and could more easily be influenced by the simplistic messages peddled by the Leave campaign. They were also more likely to blame the EU and Immigration for their personal situation and pay little credence (or fully comprehend) the economic arguments to remain. For this segment of the population the Big Red Bus and "Vote Leave - Take Control" were very easy to digest and persuasive messages.

Nevermind that there was never any economic truth in the big red bus message.

You can take a look at the demographic breakdown on page 28 of this report.

 

[Bromley boy]

The cold, hard, facts are the majority of leave voters have a lower level of educational attainment than the remain supporters and could more easily be influenced by the simplistic messages peddled by the Leave campaign. They were also more likely to blame the EU and Immigration for their personal situation and pay little credence (or fully comprehend) the economic arguments to remain. For this segment of the population the Big Red Bus and "Vote Leave - Take Control" were very easy to digest and persuasive messages.

Nevermind that there was never any economic truth in the big red bus message.

You can take a look at the demographic breakdown on page 28 of this report.

You just don’t get it do you.

I doubt many leave voters cared about the £350m figure. The overall point being demonstrated by the campaign was that the U.K. is a net contributor to the EU’s coffers - we pay in far more than we receive.

As for educational attainment, since when has that been a requirement for participating in elections or referenda? In any case, if what you say is true, it should have been easy for the remain camp to hoodwink the stupid ignorant leavers into remaining.

You should also consider that the sneering, intellectually superior tone of the above post is precisely the kind of attitude that prompted leave voters to deliver a great big “f*ck you” to the establishment!

 

[AlterEgo]

The cold, hard, facts are the majority of leave voters have a lower level of educational attainment than the remain supporters and could more easily be influenced by the simplistic messages peddled by the Leave campaign. They were also more likely to blame the EU and Immigration for their personal situation and pay little credence (or fully comprehend) the economic arguments to remain. For this segment of the population the Big Red Bus and "Vote Leave - Take Control" were very easy to digest and persuasive messages.

Nevermind that there was never any economic truth in the big red bus message.

You can take a look at the demographic breakdown on page 28 of this report.

Are people still honestly trotting out the line “Remain voters are smarter than Leave ones”? Blimey.

 

[EM2]

...prompted leave voters to deliver a great big “f*ck you” to the establishment!

The Leave campaign was stuffed with establishment figures! Johnson, Gove, Farage, IDS, Fox, Grayling, Lawson, Whittingdale, just to name a few.

 

[Puffing Devil]

You just don’t get it do you.

I doubt many leave voters cared about the £350m figure. The overall point being demonstrated by the campaign was that the U.K. is a net contributor to the EU’s coffers - we pay in far more than we receive.

Many voters did. They did not get the "net contribution argument".

As for educational attainment, since when has that been a requirement for participating in elections or referenda? In any case, if what you say is true, it should have been easy for the remain camp to hoodwink the stupid ignorant leavers into remaining.

Remain could have adopted the same tactics as Leave; they did not. They lost the referendum.

You should also consider that the sneering, intellectually superior tone of the above post is precisely the kind of attitude that prompted leave voters to deliver a great big “f*ck you” to the establishment!

And they did. Not because of the campaign, because they are struggling to get by with a government that doesn't listen. 91% blame immigration for their situation and Farage and UKIP gave them an easy post to hang their hat on.

I am curious to know where I'm "sneering". I wrote an observation based on published facts. Something the Leave campaign seems to sneer at.

Are people still honestly trotting out the line “Remain voters are smarter than Leave ones”? Blimey.

The demographic data shows that Remain voters do, as a proportion, have a greater educational attainment. That's a fact. Your issue with the fact is?

 

[EM2]

I doubt many leave voters cared about the £350m figure.

Dominic Cummings, who was the campaign director for Vote Leave, believes that they would not have won without it.

 

[Bromley boy]

And they did. Not because of the campaign, because they are struggling to get by with a government that doesn't listen.

Agreed! I suspect the campaigns on both sides had little to do with the result.

So why are we still arguing about red buses and trite campaign slogans two years later?

 

[AlterEgo]

The demographic data shows that Remain voters do, as a proportion, have a greater educational attainment. That's a fact. Your issue with the fact is?

I’m a Remain voter. I think the patronising way Remainers talked to Leavers in the campaign was fundamental in getting enough of a swing so people thought “nah, f*** you”, and f*** us they did.

There’s a difference between being educated and being smart. I don’t think a lot of Remainers were very smart.

 

[Puffing Devil]

I’m a Remain voter. I think the patronising way Remainers talked to Leavers in the campaign was fundamental in getting enough of a swing so people thought “nah, f*** you”, and f*** us they did.

There’s a difference between being educated and being smart. I don’t think a lot of Remainers were very smart.

I agree - my post was in answer to a question and to point to some of the reasons why people behaved/voted in the way that they did.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Agreed! I suspect the campaigns on both sides had little to do with the result.

So why are we still arguing about red buses and trite campaign slogans two years later?

Because:

It’s supremely arrogant for remainers to pretend leavers didn’t know what they were voting for just because things didn’t go their way.

 

[mmh]

The cold, hard, facts are the majority of leave voters have a lower level of educational attainment than the remain supporters and could more easily be influenced by the simplistic messages peddled by the Leave campaign

I don't remember ever voting and being asked anything about my educational background, so this is yet more...

...wait! I've just realised, you're not a remain troll but quite a clever leave plant. The more you call leavers stupid the more determined they'll be. Genius. Bring on the second referendum!

Are you Russian?

 

[Puffing Devil]

I don't remember ever voting and being asked anything about my educational background, so this is yet more...

Why would you?

...wait! I've just realised, you're not a remain troll but quite a clever leave plant. The more you call leavers stupid the more determined they'll be. Genius. Bring on the second referendum!

Did I call leavers stupid? I pointed to a study which showed a breakdown. Do I believe that many people voting leave have not thought through the full consequences of their vote? Yes. Does that make them stupid? No.

Are you Russian?

Nyet

 

[Puffing Devil]

Quite a sobering perspective

https://amp.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/james-obrien-brexiteers-havent-got-a-clue/

"We are a laughing stock at the moment"

Echoes the thoughts of my European colleagues.

 

[Bromley boy]

Because:

But if we are in agreement that the campaigns didn’t really affect the votes either way, what does it matter?

I have a susiscion that most peoples’ voting decision was made in spite of rather than because of anything either campaign said (both contained lies and misinformation. The remain campaign was also relentlessly negative, patronising and uninspiring).

 

[mmh]

Quite a sobering perspective

https://amp.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/james-obrien-brexiteers-havent-got-a-clue/

"We are a laughing stock at the moment"

Echoes the thoughts of my European colleagues.

Who won't be biased in any way, I expect?

 

[mmh]

Did I call leavers stupid?

Yes, you did.

The cold, hard, facts are the majority of leave voters have a lower level of educational attainment than the remain supporters and could more easily be influenced by the simplistic messages peddled by the Leave campaign.

Do I believe that many people voting leave have not thought through the full consequences of their vote? Yes. Does that make them stupid? No.

You're doing great work. Keep it up! Never forget that all the silent people might be remainers or undecided, which is why you must patronise them enough until they'll become leavers.

 

[trash80]

Who won't be biased in any way, I expect?

Everyone is biased, doesn't make it not true. If it helps i've read commentary in US, HK and Aussie newspapers which can't believe the mess the UK is in.

 

[Jonny]

Said it before and I'll say it again. It recently took me three hours to cross from Bosnia in to Croatia at a border crossing that was dead, and we weren't even carrying cargo. I don't think it is fear mongering to say that if we crash out of the EU then crossing the border both ways could become significantly more troublesome.

Passport control at a major airport is usually pretty quick...

 

[Jonny]

And here's some upsides on WTO terms on tariffs: http://www.civitas.org.uk/reports_articles/potential-post-brexit-tariff-costs-for-eu-uk-trade/

• Our analysis shows that if the UK leaves the EU without a trade deal UK exporters could face the potential impact of £5.2 billion in tariffs on goods being sold to the EU. However, EU exporters will also face £12.9 billion in tariffs on goods coming to the UK.
• Exporters to the UK in 22 of the 27 remaining EU member states face higher tariffs costs when selling their goods than UK exporters face when selling goods to those countries. German exporters would have to deal with the impact of £3.4 billion of tariffs on goods they export to the UK. UK exporters in return would face £0.9 billion of tariffs on goods going to Germany....

Also, EU rules cost every business even if they don't export to the EU.

 

[Howardh]

Passport control at a major airport is usually pretty quick...

You've never entered the country via Manchester Terminal 1 then?!!

 

[Jonny]

What's all this about a so-called people's vote? 2016 was the real People's Vote!

 

[Puffing Devil]

Passport control at a major airport is usually pretty quick...

Not the case at the moment: https://www.standard.co.uk/news/tra...are-damaging-the-uks-reputation-a3866386.html

And have you ever entered the USA or seen the non-EU lines at airports. That's where we'll be standing next year.

 

[Jonny]

Not the case at the moment: https://www.standard.co.uk/news/tra...are-damaging-the-uks-reputation-a3866386.html

And have you ever entered the USA or seen the non-EU lines at airports. That's where we'll be standing next year.

Someone needs a trip to New Zealand then... or Singapore... or the UAE... to see how passport control is done.

 

[Puffing Devil]

And here's some upsides on WTO terms on tariffs: http://www.civitas.org.uk/reports_articles/potential-post-brexit-tariff-costs-for-eu-uk-trade/

Let's look at the opening paragraph of that article from October 2016:

• Our analysis shows that if the UK leaves the EU without a trade deal UK exporters could face the potential impact of £5.2 billion in tariffs on goods being sold to the EU. However, EU exporters will also face £12.9 billion in tariffs on goods coming to the UK.

That's the EU looking at a £5.2 billion hit if the EU continues to buy from us. If the EU continues to buy from the UK and don't switch to EU sources instead. There is no compulsion on the EU to continue to trade with us. I suspect that the lure of free trade partners with no additional tariffs would be very appealing.

Goods coming into the country could face £12.9 billion in tariffs. Not much we can do about that, other than buy locally.

Where's the positive for the UK after Brexit?

Also, EU rules cost every business even if they don't export to the EU.

Which rules and what are the costs?

 

[Puffing Devil]

Someone needs a trip to New Zealand then... or Singapore... or the UAE... to see how passport control is done.

Why? To improve our own processes which we could do if we funded and staffed our border control properly, or are you suggesting other countries up their game to benefit the UK?

 

[Puffing Devil]

Agreed! I suspect the campaigns on both sides had little to do with the result.

So why are we still arguing about red buses and trite campaign slogans two years later?

Because immigration was a massive factor for 10% of the electorate. That's where UKIP scored with their "Turkey is coming" mantra.

There's another 30% of the electorate who swallowed the whole bus.

 

[Bromley boy]

Because immigration was a massive factor for 10% of the electorate. That's where UKIP scored with their "Turkey is coming" mantra.

There's another 30% of the electorate who swallowed the whole bus.

So in other words:

- people were concerned about free movement;

- people were concerned about the amount of money the U.K. pays to the EU.

Two excellent reasons to vote leave!

 

[Puffing Devil]

So in other words:

- people were concerned about free movement;

- people were concerned about the amount of money the U.K. pays to the EU.

Two excellent reasons to vote leave!

Maybe good reasons, if the facts presented to play to those concerns were true, which they were not.

- Turkey is joining the EU and all 76 million Muslims would be heading for the UK (Not True, Turkey was not and is not on course for EU membership)

- There was a real net surplus of £350 million and it would be applied to the NHS. Farage admitted it was unsubstantiated one hour after the leave vote was confirmed.