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Wrexham redouble

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edwin_m

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With a curve that takes a train off the North Wales coast and off to Wrexham via Shotton High Level surely there is a possibility of then reversing at Wrexham and going back along the coast via Chester giving us a circular North Wales metro stopping service. A curve in these circumstances would be just as useful for local services as for long distance time savings by NW to SW trains avoiding Chester?

I don't see that would be particularly useful. Anyone going from the Coast to Chester would be better off waiting for the next direct train, and a journey from any of the Borderlands line stations to Chester via a reversal at Wrexham would be too slow compared with driving.

In principle a decent frequency on the Borderlands line and also on locals between Chester and the Coast would make connections at Shotton more realistic, but it's a bit of a stretch to see this happening. If it did, the number of slow trains would probably make it impossible to run fast trains on the Borderlands line to take advantage of a west to south Shotton chord.
 
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8H

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I don't see that would be particularly useful. Anyone going from the Coast to Chester would be better off waiting for the next direct train, and a journey from any of the Borderlands line stations to Chester via a reversal at Wrexham would be too slow compared with driving.

In principle a decent frequency on the Borderlands line and also on locals between Chester and the Coast would make connections at Shotton more realistic, but it's a bit of a stretch to see this happening. If it did, the number of slow trains would probably make it impossible to run fast trains on the Borderlands line to take advantage of a west to south Shotton chord.

I was thinking that a direct link between the coastal towns and Wrexham avoiding Chester and going to the biggest town in NW is a new and a very good thing, not just another service to Chester. The same train having gone to Wrexham then provides another Wrexham Chester link and then goes back down the coast. North Wales circle line! Good point regarding capacity impact on possible slow and semi fast servcies between Wrexham and Bidston which I am very much in favour of too. I don't have the answer! Just imagining best connectivity for an area that needs an answer which isn't the A55 etc!
 
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krus_aragon

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And just to think that many only feel there is a north/south divide in England (with the base of power situated in the south)...:roll:

Well, in Wales' case, we've got a few mountain ranges in the way. That tends to dissuade people from resorting to fisty-cuffs.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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I was thinking that a direct link between the coastal towns and Wrexham avoiding Chester and going to the biggest town in NW is a new and a very good thing, not just another service to Chester. The same train having gone to Wrexham then provides another Wrexham Chester link and then goes back down the coast. North Wales circle line! Good point regarding capacity impact on possible slow and semi fast servcies between Wrexham and Bidston which I am very much in favour of too. I don't have the answer! Just imagining best connectivity for an area that needs an answer which isn't the A55 etc!

How many people do you think travel from Wrexham/Ruabon/Chirk/Gobowen to North Wales Coast stations?
Very few, I believe, especially if you divert longer distance passengers via Crewe.
Wrexham is a large town but is no kind of "hub", that's what Chester is.
The Shotton-Wrexham line is a cheap, slow route (40mph), and any chord from the NW main line would be even slower.
There is no business case for such a link.
The best thing for Wrexham would be an electric link to the regional hub at Chester to become part of Merseyrail. Job done.
 

8H

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How many people do you think travel from Wrexham/Ruabon/Chirk/Gobowen to North Wales Coast stations?
Very few, I believe, especially if you divert longer distance passengers via Crewe.
Wrexham is a large town but is no kind of "hub", that's what Chester is.
The Shotton-Wrexham line is a cheap, slow route (40mph), and any chord from the NW main line would be even slower.
There is no business case for such a link.
The best thing for Wrexham would be an electric link to the regional hub at Chester to become part of Merseyrail. Job done.

I see that current demand for example a Prestatyn-Wrexham flow is not great! The question is what subsequently happens if it becomes easy rather than difficult.

My original point however was that a reinstated curve NW coast to Wrexham would potentially offer more than just a long distance services Chester avoiding line and that still stands.

Much the same way as it used to be easy and at times quicker to get from Shrewsbury Wrexham and Chester to the Wirral or/and Liverpool or off the North Wales coast and than it is now (your second point) means that there is no effective road competition.

Full or hybrid electric services from Wrexham to Wirral is obviously a stronger candidate I agree. Which route you take and how you speed up the current timings to gain modal shift from motor cars is even more fun to think about.
 

The Planner

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Is there a demand for it though? Is Wrexham a sizeable enough centre of employment that people from the coast would want to travel to? Surely Chester and Merseyside are a bigger draw?
 

Sox

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Was there a curve originally (or only a convoluted one)?

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LNW-GW Joint

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I see that current demand for example a Prestatyn-Wrexham flow is not great! The question is what subsequently happens if it becomes easy rather than difficult.
My original point however was that a reinstated curve NW coast to Wrexham would potentially offer more than just a long distance services Chester avoiding line and that still stands.

Difficult? Wrexham-Prestatyn (etc) is already hourly on a through train.
The chord at Shotton was I believe only a local freight interchange and never offered a through passenger service.
It was part of the WMCQ (GC/LNER) system and it's main purpose was to access the docks on the River Dee.
In fact the only direct connection was with the related Buckley Railway at Connah's Quay, with only an indirect connection to the LNWR via the docks sidings.
Even the A55 runs to the Chester interchange before the A483 goes off south, and there is no plan to build a short-cut from Broughton to Rossett, just to stay within Wales.
Signposts don't send you via the shorter but messy local A550.
 
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snowball

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Even the A55 runs to the Chester interchange before the A483 goes off south, and there is no plan to build a short-cut from Broughton to Rossett, just to stay within Wales.
Signposts don't send you via the shorter but messy local A550.
Off topic for a rail forum but there was once a plan to comprehensively improve both the A541 Wrexham-Mold road and its branch the A550. Both of them have dual carriageway sections (the A541 has four) and the A550 has the Penyffordd bypass.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Off topic for a rail forum but there was once a plan to comprehensively improve both the A541 Wrexham-Mold road and its branch the A550. Both of them have dual carriageway sections (the A541 has four) and the A550 has the Penyffordd bypass.

Indeed, but most of those have been narrowed and slowed in the recent past because of safety considerations.
Sorry, its prolonging the road aspect, but the whole Deeside/Wrexham area is a bit of a planning nightmare, with so many conflicting requirements and options.
The good thing is that the NE Wales and West Cheshire/Wirral agencies do seem to be working together.
But it often doesn't read well in Cardiff.
At least Ken Skates, the WG minister responsible, is a local lad.
 

krus_aragon

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Was there a curve originally (or only a convoluted one)?

Not in the image you've posted there, without a reversal (and you'd end up heading toward Chester instead). The curve you see led to the docks at Connah's Quay, and some exchange sidings on the up (north) side of the Chester and Holyhead railway.

A more practical route (historically speaking) was the older Buckley Railway, which ran from Buckley to Connah's Quay. A curve to exchange sidings on the down (south) side of the CHR were opened in 1860. These weren't through sidings, but the alignment could have been adapted for through running if it had ever been desired. It never had a passenger service of any type, IIRC.
 

Rhydgaled

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I was thinking that a direct link between the coastal towns and Wrexham avoiding Chester and going to the biggest town in NW is a new and a very good thing, not just another service to Chester.
That idea could make alot more sense than a frequent north Wales to Cardiff service in my opinion.

Is there a demand for it though? Is Wrexham a sizeable enough centre of employment that people from the coast would want to travel to? Surely Chester and Merseyside are a bigger draw?
Just because destination X is more important than destination Y, it doesn't automatically follow that destination Y is completely unimportant. It may be worth serving both, perhaps with shorter trains on the quieter route.

Difficult? Wrexham-Prestatyn (etc) is already hourly on a through train.
BUT; those through trains are difficult. Not from a passenger's perspective perhaps, but there are several issues which lead me to the opinion that through trains reversing at Chester should be withdrawn*. These issues include:
  • Interworking with the ETCS-only Cambrian, meaning the Cambrian loses two 158s to the Chester-Bangor/Holyhead leg
  • Interworking with the ETCS-only Cambrian means the Wrexham-Chester line is going to be way down the priority list for electrification; thus efforts to secure electrification of the north Wales coast line would be hindered by the frequent through-running of diesel trains from Wrexham, reversing at Chester
  • The reversal at Chester cannot be helping journey times between the North Wales coast and Wrexham
A curve at Shotton to allow (for example) a Wrexham Central - Llandudno service would allow regular through trains between Wrexham and the north Wales coast to continue even if the Birmingham-Shrewsbury-Wrexham-Chester workings terminated at Chester rather than carrying on to the north Wales coast. It would increase the scope of any proposed north Wales electrification (which would have to include Wrexham Central-Bidston as well as the north Wales coast), but not by the same extent that including the entire marches line from Chester to Newport ** would.
----------------
* With the exception of three express trains each way between Holyhead and Cardiff/Swansea.
** and perhaps the Cambrian too, because of the interworking, unless you kept a diesel service under the wires from Birmingham to Chester/Holyhead every two hours
 

catfordbags

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Interesting discussion relating to shotton chord ... I always assumed a chord heading from west Wirral towards Chester would be the most useful .. considering the A540 west Wirral road to Chester is painfully slow and very busy.

And whilst we are talking west Wirral ... how hard would it be to put a railhead into the Aldi distribution centre at Neston ?
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Not in the image you've posted there, without a reversal (and you'd end up heading toward Chester instead). The curve you see led to the docks at Connah's Quay, and some exchange sidings on the up (north) side of the Chester and Holyhead railway.

A more practical route (historically speaking) was the older Buckley Railway, which ran from Buckley to Connah's Quay. A curve to exchange sidings on the down (south) side of the CHR were opened in 1860. These weren't through sidings, but the alignment could have been adapted for through running if it had ever been desired. It never had a passenger service of any type, IIRC.

The Buckley railway was only ever a goods line and had some absurd curves and gradients, and also low bridges.
It had to be worked by special short wheelbase/low profile steam locos.
All gone now and some of it built on.
The connections at Connah's Quay were particularly tortuous.
You can hardly believe they got trains in there.
 

Gareth Marston

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Interesting discussion relating to shotton chord ... I always assumed a chord heading from west Wirral towards Chester would be the most useful .. considering the A540 west Wirral road to Chester is painfully slow and very busy.

And whilst we are talking west Wirral ... how hard would it be to put a railhead into the Aldi distribution centre at Neston ?

Dee Marsh Junction to Chester Northgate was the in the highest category 10000 plus passengers a week in the infamous Beeching Passenger density maps. However they used duplicate route theory to justify its closure.
 

8H

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Interesting discussion relating to shotton chord ... I always assumed a chord heading from west Wirral towards Chester would be the most useful .. considering the A540 west Wirral road to Chester is painfully slow and very busy.

And whilst we are talking west Wirral ... how hard would it be to put a railhead into the Aldi distribution centre at Neston ?

Interesting ideas here too, the convoy of lorries to Aldi never seems to stop, good for business and employment, but scarcely environmentally sound. Their depot is more or less adjacent to the line between Neston and Heswall, especially since it just got even bigger!
 

Railman

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How many passengers travel from Wrexham to North Wales coast stations or vice versa now?
Although you could argue they might if they could easily do it??Is the argument a purely Welsh one, i.e. improve links within Wales and see what happens or is it a strategic one based on a National transport requirement???
An electric merseyrail service from the limits of the North Wirral suburbs seems an obvious improvement for those people living there, the exact limits based on regular commuters is an item for discussion, all though an improved service and Interchange at Shotton could do well. Opening up lots of travel options for people.
Third Rail to Wrexham across all those political borders, for no obvious traffic flow is a "wish list" item. Does Wrexham wish to leave Wales and be part of Merseyside??? But who are the main sponsors of these ideas?? Who is going to cough up the money??
 

8H

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I think what has kicked all this off again is the July Modern Railways article about Chester area capacity and possible enhancements. If you haven't had chance it's a good read. The Chester Northgate closures and the cessation of Birkenhead Paddington services smashed up rail connectivity around these parts and the consequences are obvious from observation of the creaking road network and the rotten share for rail in total journeys. What to do next is really interesting, but it can't be just the Halton Curve
 

edwin_m

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How many passengers travel from Wrexham to North Wales coast stations or vice versa now?
Although you could argue they might if they could easily do it??Is the argument a purely Welsh one, i.e. improve links within Wales and see what happens or is it a strategic one based on a National transport requirement???
An electric merseyrail service from the limits of the North Wirral suburbs seems an obvious improvement for those people living there, the exact limits based on regular commuters is an item for discussion, all though an improved service and Interchange at Shotton could do well. Opening up lots of travel options for people.
Third Rail to Wrexham across all those political borders, for no obvious traffic flow is a "wish list" item. Does Wrexham wish to leave Wales and be part of Merseyside??? But who are the main sponsors of these ideas?? Who is going to cough up the money??

One option looked at in the past is electrifying from Bidston to Shotton only, including a new station north of (and probably replacing) Hawarden Bridge to serve the major employment area. There would then be overlapping and connecting services, electric between Liverpool and Shotton and diesel (probably less frequent) between the new station and Wrexham.
 

kieron

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Even the A55 runs to t1he Chester interchange before the A483 goes off south, and there is no plan to build a short-cut from Broughton to Rossett, just to stay within Wales.
Signposts don't send you via the shorter but messy local A550.
Road signs do send Wrexham traffic along the A550 from the A55. There's also a signed alternative route for vehicles which can't fit under the railway bridges. I can't think where you start seeing signs for journeys involving the A55 from the Wrexham direction, though, on any route. It's usually just A541 Mold and A483 Chester.

By contrast, the signs don't send through traffic on the A550 between the A55 and A494, encouraging everyone to go via Ewloe instead.
 

Phil from Mon

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At last, from the May timetables we have the promised acceleration - just a few minutes on most trains, but 14 minutes off the northbound Gerald. No sign of any increased frequency though, I suppose anything there will wait for the Halton Chord...
 

LNW-GW Joint

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At last, from the May timetables we have the promised acceleration - just a few minutes on most trains, but 14 minutes off the northbound Gerald. No sign of any increased frequency though, I suppose anything there will wait for the Halton Chord...

I only make it 9 minutes faster on Gerald northbound (5 later from Cardiff, 4 earlier into Holyhead).
Times are 5 minutes faster to Shrewsbury, another 5 to Wrexham, then the same onwards.
Generally trains have the same time for Chester-Wrexham, and slightly faster Gobowen-Shrewsbury.
Maybe there's a bit more to come on the coast, after the Shotton-Colwyn Bay upgrades are finished.
 

Phil from Mon

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I only make it 9 minutes faster on Gerald northbound (5 later from Cardiff, 4 earlier into Holyhead).
Times are 5 minutes faster to Shrewsbury, another 5 to Wrexham, then the same onwards.
Generally trains have the same time for Chester-Wrexham, and slightly faster Gobowen-Shrewsbury.
Maybe there's a bit more to come on the coast, after the Shotton-Colwyn Bay upgrades are finished.
Gerald currently leaves Cardiff 1716, that is staying the same. It arrives Bangor 2120, from May 20 it is 2106. I make that 14 minutes. According to the ATW website the acceleration is after Wrexham and not before. I’ll take another look to confirm.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Gerald currently leaves Cardiff 1716, that is staying the same. It arrives Bangor 2120, from May 20 it is 2106. I make that 14 minutes. According to the ATW website the acceleration is after Wrexham and not before. I’ll take another look to confirm.

I was going on RTT times for the week before the change and the week after.
Maybe this is affected by the current raft of engineering work around Cardiff (eg some trains turning at Hereford)?
 

craigybagel

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I was going on RTT times for the week before the change and the week after.
Maybe this is affected by the current raft of engineering work around Cardiff (eg some trains turning at Hereford)?

At the moment, everything between Cardiff and Newport is running on the relief lines only - with a lower top speed (60 Vs 95) so journey times have been extended to cope
 

Phil from Mon

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Thanks Craigybagel. The announcement of the acceleration (for the Northbound Gerald north of Wrexham) is on the ATW website. What I find strange, although there is probably a good reason, is that the acceleration is over the old section of jointed track, while the new southbound track remains on pretty much the same timing.
 

rich.davies

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Wrexham.com are reprting that £500,000 had been allocated for the Wrexham North Junction..
http://www.wrexham.com/news/500k-fu...progress-rail-projects-in-wrexham-154072.html
£500,000 is to be invested in developing and progressing “important rail infrastructure” projects in Wrexham, it has been announced.

The Welsh Government funding, which was unveiled today by Transport Secretary Ken Skates, will allow the completion of development work to upgrade the Wrexham North Junction as a priority project.

This will enable improved journey times from Wrexham General station going north, allowing trains to pass through the single line section up to Rossett more quickly, which will also contribute towards enabling increased frequency of services.

The investment is also being used to consider a range of other interventions that can further support increased services.....
 
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