Flight to Germany on Large Jet

[jamesontheroad]

Due to bad weather one day a few years ago, Aer Lingus cancelled the first two flights from Manchester to Dublin. They took some initiative though, and quickly rostered one of their A330-200 for a new flight. I knew to ask politely for a seat up front, as they declassified international business class too. A very comfy thirty minute flight.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I believe Jet2 lease an Air Tanker A333 for this purpose for the summer season only. I don't know the pattern but when I saw it on flightradar it was heading to Tenerife which is one of the longer flights in the short haul Spanish holiday markets.

The Jet2 a/c (G -VYGL) is MAN based and is indeed used on routes to the Canaries and Palma. It is currently just NW of Barca inbound from the latter.

They are however in the charter or package market rather than say easyjet capacity boosting with a larger frame and as you say not terribly common. I'm sure you're right that the economics has to be pretty marginal based on using an aircraft otherwise between long haul rotations.

Jet2 is an interesting case: it's a LCC which has become quite heavily involved in the package market. We have to assume that the seasonal use of a single A330 makes financial sense for them.

Thomas Cook again seem to use one of their TATL A333 but not sure, either way not many.
TUI I seem to recall have a dedicated short haul 788.

Similarly to Jet2 Thomas Cook have 2 Air Tanker A330s on lease but they seem to be used exclusively on their ever-growing TATL network from MAN. Thomas Cook do however have an A330 on lease from HiFly Malta which is being used on Canaries/Med flights.

TUI on the other hand, at least for the summer, are operating in a decidedly old-school manner with their 787s being used seemingly indiscriminately on both long-haul TATL routes and also Canaries/Med routes from a wide variety of regional airports (including DUB!) to an almost bewildering selection of European destinations. During the winter I suspect they will be concentrated on the long-haul runs including the likes of Goa and Phuket.

To get back on topic back in the day Cathay's Manchester flights used to route via a variety of European airports, definitely including Amsterdam and Paris but possibly also Frankfurt and Zurich, and I'm pretty sure they had full fifth freedom rights on these. Air India used to fly A310s from Mumbai via Delhi to Manchester via Rome but I'm not sure whether the latter was purely a technical stop.

Someone mentioned other TATL "extensions"; both United and Air India used to route their New York/Delhi and/or Mumbai flights via Heathrow. I suspect
that these flights had fifth freedom rights. Indeed the United flights once formed part of a round-the-world itinirary: did United hold fifth freedom rights for all legs?

On the Irish front at one time during the run-up to Christmas BA did send the occasional 747 to Belfast

 

[Dentonian]

Jet2 is an interesting case: it's a LCC which has become quite heavily involved in the package market. We have to assume that the seasonal use of a single A330 makes financial sense for them.



Similarly to Jet2 Thomas Cook have 2 Air Tanker A330s on lease but they seem to be used exclusively on their ever-growing TATL network from MAN. Thomas Cook do however have an A330 on lease from HiFly Malta which is being used on Canaries/Med flights.

TUI on the other hand, at least for the summer, are operating in a decidedly old-school manner with their 787s being used seemingly indiscriminately on both long-haul TATL routes and also Canaries/Med routes from a wide variety of regional airports (including DUB!) to an almost bewildering selection of European destinations. During the winter I suspect they will be concentrated on the long-haul runs including the likes of Goa and Phuket.

To get back on topic back in the day Cathay's Manchester flights used to route via a variety of European airports, definitely including Amsterdam and Paris but possibly also Frankfurt and Zurich, and I'm pretty sure they had full fifth freedom rights on these. Air India used to fly A310s from Mumbai via Delhi to Manchester via Rome but I'm not sure whether the latter was purely a technical stop.

Someone mentioned other TATL "extensions"; both United and Air India used to route their New York/Delhi and/or Mumbai flights via Heathrow. I suspect
that these flights had fifth freedom rights. Indeed the United flights once formed part of a round-the-world itinirary: did United hold fifth freedom rights for all legs?

On the Irish front at one time during the run-up to Christmas BA did send the occasional 747 to Belfast

Cathay did indeed route MAN flights via Frankfurt and iirc, Zurich as well. I've been on organised trips utilising the AMS, CDG & FRA stops during the first half of the 1990s.

 

[route101]

Hainian 787 EDI to DUB is fifth freedom too

 

[atillathehunn]

Hainian 787 EDI to DUB is fifth freedom too

Good catch on that. Recent news shows, unfortunately, that the frequencies are reducing for the winter period. Perhaps jump on it while you can!

 

[atillathehunn]

Jet2 is an interesting case: it's a LCC which has become quite heavily involved in the package market. We have to assume that the seasonal use of a single A330 makes financial sense for them.



Similarly to Jet2 Thomas Cook have 2 Air Tanker A330s on lease but they seem to be used exclusively on their ever-growing TATL network from MAN. Thomas Cook do however have an A330 on lease from HiFly Malta which is being used on Canaries/Med flights.

TUI on the other hand, at least for the summer, are operating in a decidedly old-school manner with their 787s being used seemingly indiscriminately on both long-haul TATL routes and also Canaries/Med routes from a wide variety of regional airports (including DUB!) to an almost bewildering selection of European destinations. During the winter I suspect they will be concentrated on the long-haul runs including the likes of Goa and Phuket.

To get back on topic back in the day Cathay's Manchester flights used to route via a variety of European airports, definitely including Amsterdam and Paris but possibly also Frankfurt and Zurich, and I'm pretty sure they had full fifth freedom rights on these. Air India used to fly A310s from Mumbai via Delhi to Manchester via Rome but I'm not sure whether the latter was purely a technical stop.

Someone mentioned other TATL "extensions"; both United and Air India used to route their New York/Delhi and/or Mumbai flights via Heathrow. I suspect
that these flights had fifth freedom rights. Indeed the United flights once formed part of a round-the-world itinirary: did United hold fifth freedom rights for all legs?

On the Irish front at one time during the run-up to Christmas BA did send the occasional 747 to Belfast

Thanks for the correction on Thomas Cook there, I hadn't realised there were multiple leases going on.

It will surely make sense for Jet2 as I believe they expanded their A333 operation this year (stand to be corrected) and you are right, they are an odd operator, a bit in between everything. However, people I know who've flown them appear happy. Good luck to them.

TUI - I believe they vary their routes quite a bit according to the season. Their 787 seems to pop up all over the place, including from Bournemouth to Barbados on cruise charters as well as Manchester - various holiday islands. I assume with the Med being more popular in the summer than the Caribbean I assume they can still benefit on the longer Med routes from the efficiency vs the weight penalities.

747 to Belfast would be interesting! I believe Virgin operate a seasonal 747 in to/from Orlando, but that appears to be the largest thing in there by a long way.

 

[James James]

There are also triangular patterns. Can't think of any within Europe at the moment, but BA for example fly LHR-Antigua-St Kitts-LHR. The difference here is that they only fly one way at the base of the triangle. I think United used to fly LHR-BRU as part of a triangle from somewhere.

I believe United's LHR-BRU was actually a return LHR-BRU, operated primarily in order to retain a temporarily unneeded slot at LHR.

 

[AlterEgo]

Widebodies to/ from Europe is not especially remarkable.

*Long-haul* configured widebodies are rarer, and are usually because of tag-on flights like SIN-MUC-MAN-MUC-SIN, or direct familiarisation flights like LHR-CDG on the A380. The difference is most noticeable in business class.

There are also triangular patterns. Can't think of any within Europe at the moment, but BA for example fly LHR-Antigua-St Kitts-LHR. The difference here is that they only fly one way at the base of the triangle. I think United used to fly LHR-BRU as part of a triangle from somewhere.

Some more examples here:

https://www.headforpoints.com/2016/12/18/flying-long-haul-planes-on-short-haul-redemptions-3/

Can you think of many *short haul* configured widebodies traversing intra-Europe routes?

The BA 767s are retiring over the next few months and they are the only examples of a legacy airline I can think of. A handful of charter operators run seasonal A330/767 flights around and about.

Long haul widebodies - plenty of them:

Aer Lingus: DUB-AGP/FAO A330

LATAM: FRA-MAD 787

Finnair: LHR-HEL A330/350

Iberia: MAD-LHR A330/340/350

Air Europa: LGW-MAD A330, BCN-MAD A330, MAD-LPA 787 (there will be more too)

TAP: LIS-VIE A330

Austrian: Variable intra Europe from VIE with 767 (FRA is common)

Hainan: DUB-EDI A330/787

Ethiopian: OSL-ARN 787

BA: LHR-MAD 777

Sichuan: PRG-ZRH A330

Swiss: GVA-ZRH 777


Just off the top of my head.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not many - indeed, LHR-Madrid is the only one I knew of before (as I've used it) that wasn't just a one-stop long-haul like that Singapore example. The A321 tends to be used a lot more for that purpose these days - including in the USA, the land of the domestic widebody flight.

 

[atillathehunn]

Not many - indeed, LHR-Madrid is the only one I knew of before (as I've used it) that wasn't just a one-stop long-haul like that Singapore example. The A321 tends to be used a lot more for that purpose these days - including in the USA, the land of the domestic widebody flight.

I have no direct evidence to support this, but I would think due to its size there are more domestic configured widebodies and narrow bodies which are more 'kitted out' (cf: JetBlue Mint suites on A321(?)).

Ethiopian flies with widebodies between quite a number of European airports, but apart from Oslo and Stockholm they don't have traffic rights.

Don't see anybody using short-haul configured widebodies beyond that. Long-haul configured will surely continue, with operators from the east seemingly adding new. I think AA just introduced Philadelphia - Prague - Budapest recently, I think A333. Not sure about traffic rights, but would seem unlikely.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I have no direct evidence to support this, but I would think due to its size there are more domestic configured widebodies and narrow bodies which are more 'kitted out' (cf: JetBlue Mint suites on A321(?)).

Ethiopian flies with widebodies between quite a number of European airports, but apart from Oslo and Stockholm they don't have traffic rights.

Don't see anybody using short-haul configured widebodies beyond that. Long-haul configured will surely continue, with operators from the east seemingly adding new. I think AA just introduced Philadelphia - Prague - Budapest recently, I think A333. Not sure about traffic rights, but would seem unlikely.

Don't forget Japan. The 500+ seated 747s may be a thing of the past but still plenty of smaller widebodies on domestic routes. And as the economy grows it may well happen in China depending on how quickly their HSR network is expanded.

 

[atillathehunn]

I wrote ambiguously, sorry: I meant within Europe.

The US, Japan, China, and AUS/NZ will surely continue the trend given the distances and the dominance of hub and spoke in the US in particular.

 

[thejuggler]

My only 777 flight was Penang to Singapore.

About 90 minutes with no more than 30 PAX, but a belly full of IBM computers.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I wrote ambiguously, sorry: I meant within Europe.

The US, Japan, China, and AUS/NZ will surely continue the trend given the distances and the dominance of hub and spoke in the US in particular.

Given the potential of the the A321LR/B737MAX9 it's quite possible that wide-bodies on US domestic flights, with the possible exception of some routes to/from Hawaii, could become distinctly unusual in the not too distant future given the US preference for higher frequency if possible.

 

[atillathehunn]

Given the potential of the the A321LR/B737MAX9 it's quite possible that wide-bodies on US domestic flights, with the possible exception of some routes to/from Hawaii, could become distinctly unusual in the not too distant future given the US preference for higher frequency if possible.

Yes the range of narrow body aircraft is now quite stunning. Though with the size and scale of some of the US hubs, I think the widebody will continue to reign for some very specific routes. Though you are right, the hub and spoke model is fading a little bit, and the tendency for air travel to be treated as more of a bus service than anything contributes to the demand for high frequency routes.

 

[Hornet]

There are also triangular patterns. Can't think of any within Europe at the moment, but BA for example fly LHR-Antigua-St Kitts-LHR.

Shortest flight I've ever taken was from St Kitts to Antigua. 15 minutes from start of take off roll to coming to a stand after landing. That was on a BA Boeing 777. The announcement to prepare for landing was made seconds after take off rotation.

 

[jopsuk]

Quite a few of the charter airlines have single class, short-haul configured, A330s and B767s

 

[thejuggler]

Our local paper had a 'throwback piece' which relates to this thread.

The 1985 incident at Leeds Bradford where a Tristar went over the end of runway 14.

Almost 400 PAX on a charter from Palma.

 

[scrapy]

Our local paper had a 'throwback piece' which relates to this thread.

The 1985 incident at Leeds Bradford where a Tristar went over the end of runway 14.

Almost 400 PAX on a charter from Palma.

I've flown Manchester to Barcelona on an Air Atlanta 747 which was strange as there were only a few people on. Was supposed to be an Airtours 757 to Girona but got substituted and diverted as a result.

 

[route101]

Flew a BA747 from Newcastle to London backin 2010.

 

[FQTV]

Flew a BA747 from Newcastle to London backin 2010.

That was almost certainly the special rotation which British Airways operated to mark Newcastle Airport’s 75th anniversary on the 27th July 2010.

BA also brought in their tethered hot air baloon; KLM operated their 737 ‘retro jet’, and Emirates flew a 777-300 in for their Dubai service, when the scheduled service was still Airbus A330 operated.

There were a few other special visitors that day, as well.

 

[route101]

That was almost certainly the special rotation which British Airways operated to mark Newcastle Airport’s 75th anniversary on the 27th July 2010.

BA also brought in their tethered hot air baloon; KLM operated their 737 ‘retro jet’, and Emirates flew a 777-300 in for their Dubai service, when the scheduled service was still Airbus A330 operated.

There were a few other special visitors that day, as well.

Yes indeed , was only £30 quid the fare

 

[rf_ioliver]

Iberia’s A350 came to London’s yesterday pm, and went back on a BA flight code, BA522.

Seems to be a regular...at least an Iberia A340 for MAD departed around 19h30 on the 6th Aug.

t.

Ian

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've used an Iberia widebody LHR-MAD, it is a regular one. I believe their booking system shows you which aircraft you're getting, so I was able to pick that one specifically.

 

[route101]

Yeah , flew the A340 - 600 last year from MAD to LHR . BA also fly the 772 on the route

 

[Bald Rick]

Seems to be a regular...at least an Iberia A340 for MAD departed around 19h30 on the 6th Aug.

t.

Ian

A340 is regular... the A350 is not! But it has flown a few times in the last two weeks.

 

[AlterEgo]

A340 is regular... the A350 is not! But it has flown a few times in the last two weeks.

A350 is regularly scheduled until the end of August/beginning of September for crew and market familiarisation. Then it's back to A340 I think.

 

[Bald Rick]

Iberia should be running their new A350s on London flights this week and next for crew familiarisation, although I don’t know which rotation (diagram).

A350 is regularly scheduled until the end of August/beginning of September for crew and market familiarisation. Then it's back to A340 I think.

I think there’s an echo...

 

[InterCity:125]

A340 is regular... the A350 is not! But it has flown a few times in the last two weeks.

A350 is regularly scheduled until the end of August/beginning of September for crew and market familiarisation. Then it's back to A340 I think.

I think there’s an echo...

 

[gsnedders]

Given the potential of the the A321LR/B737MAX9 it's quite possible that wide-bodies on US domestic flights, with the possible exception of some routes to/from Hawaii, could become distinctly unusual in the not too distant future given the US preference for higher frequency if possible.

I'm always surprised at how few wide-bodies there are in the US, though I'm sure in part this is driven by time-sensitive customers, therefore leading to frequent smaller flights.