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Why don't through trains run to Cornish branches?

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Masboroughlad

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If Newquay has through intercity services with GWR and XC, why don't the equally (more?) popular resorts of St. Ives, Falmouth and Looe.

When did these resorts get demoted to nothing more than branch lines?

Will they ever be reinstated? Falmoutj to Leeds, St. Ives to London, Looe to Manchester? Just a few thougts. Or join from the branches on to the main line. Voyagers from St. Ives, Falmoutj and Newquay to Brum?
 
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Peter Mugridge

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Well, St Ives is out - the branch is at capacity and the junction faces the wrong way; it would mean reversing in St Erth. Having said that, there are a few services which are through to and from Penzance at the beginning and end of the day.
 

AlterEgo

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If Newquay has through intercity services with GWR and XC, why don't the equally (more?) popular resorts of St. Ives, Falmouth and Looe.

When did these resorts get demoted to nothing more than branch lines?

Will they ever be reinstated? Falmoutj to Leeds, St. Ives to London, Looe to Manchester? Just a few thougts. Or join from the branches on to the main line. Voyagers from St. Ives, Falmoutj and Newquay to Brum?

St Ives would be the most likely (or least unlikely) because of the sheer popularity of the place. However a lot of people visiting are on day trips from staying in the local area and the shuttle service seems fine.

Why would a Looe to Manchester service work? What’s the need for it?
 

InterCity:125

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Falmouth seems most likely as it is the largest place of the three listed an the only one where the branch joins the right way for northwards travel.
 

Cowley

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Looe would also be out because of the way the branch is linked to the mainline at Liskeard. In fact I don’t know if passengers are allowed to be carried on the sharply curved link.
Falmouth is a very busy route that has to run efficiently because of the way the services pass at Penryn. Any long distance services coming in would cause a lot of problems if they were late I’d have thought.
 

Cowley

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There used to be a long distance service to Exmouth (from Manchester or Cleethorpes maybe?) that ran in the late sixties sometimes hauled by Warships or 47s.
I’d have loved to have gone on that...
 

twpsaesneg

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When did these resorts get demoted to nothing more than branch lines?

Will they ever be reinstated?

Were there ever direct intercity services to Looe, St.Ives or Falmouth? Certainly the platform lengths at Looe and St.Ives preclude anything much more than a sprinter based service running now.

In days of yore the best you could probably hope for was a slip coach to be shunted onto the branch train I would have thought...
 

MidnightFlyer

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The junction at Liskeard for Looe is awkward too, requires a reversal (not signalled for passenger services IIRC) onto the branch and then another approaching or at Coombe.

St Ives, Falmouth and Looe all support very intensive local services these days; I doubt it is actually possible to shoehorn anything else onto them at all, and as @Cowley alludes to, any long-distance services come fraught with danger in terms of performance. Newquay survives as alas little but a glorified siding in modern times, with practically non-existent local traffic compared to St Ives and Falmouth, a correct facing junction, and the platform lengths etc. still in situ to handle longer trains. It however has lost summer services in recent years, which if nothing else now lets a very token one stopper per day run on a summer Saturday.

What the Cornish branches really need is DMU connecting services with the capacity to eat up the punters and the luggage they bring with them, with timetables fiddled as best possible to fit nicely into and out of the mainline services from London and the Midlands / North.
 

Esker-pades

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The only branch line where this would be feasible would be the Falmouth Branch. At this point, being so deep into Cornwall, one might as well run the train all the way through to Penzance to provide connections to everywhere else.
 

tbtc

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Falmouth is a very busy route that has to run efficiently because of the way the services pass at Penryn. Any long distance services coming in would cause a lot of problems if they were late I’d have thought.

Agreed - you'd have to put a lot of contingency in the timetable to deal with one long distance service to Falmouth, given the single track etc, meaning that you may have to cancel at least a couple of regular trains for the sake of it - doesn't seem worth bothering about.

The Cornish branches seem a great example of what works and what doesn't. We've seen huge increases on simple self contained clock face branch lines like Falmouth, where passengers can rely on the services. We've seen issues on the Newquay branch (passenger numbers still lower than the total from five years ago, after a drop of around 10% before a correction), where the branch is dependent upon long distance traffic at the expense of locals (even running fewer services to local stations during the summer period to accommodate the long distance trains, meaning locals have a gap of over four hours during the summer because they aren't as important as a Paddington service that doesn't serve intermediate stations on the branch).

In fact the Newquay branch looks like a relic from the 1960s - it's a simple branch twenty miles from the main line (Par) - even a 230 should be able to rattle up and down it every hour. But it takes fifty minutes for a Sprinter to do Newquay - Par! Barring services of under five miles (where one minute of "recovery" time can artificially reduce the average speed), this must be the slowest route in the UK!

Okay, that's pretty terrible, but at least we can use the branch for a simple bi-hourly service with one unit, right? Well, no, as well as the long gaps mentioned above, the first service of the day at Newquay is the 10:09 arrival, the first departure at 10:13. Half of the arrivals and half of the departures during the week are after 17:00. That may be great if you want to come on holiday but seems of little actual use for anyone using the branch for everyday travel.

The only service to local stations on Summer Saturdays is a return that leaves Par at 19:48 and Newquay at 20:45. No service seems to be the same between the "weekday"/ "Saturday" and "Sunday" timetables (even allowing for summer/winter variations), which seems deliberately customer-unfriendly.

Falmouth etc have shown that branches work best when they focus on simple everyday travel, regular passengers making necessary journeys.

Instead of more through services to Cornwall, I'd prefer keeping each branch line focussed on everyday passengers, clock face connections on the main line for long distance passengers (with the proposal for two trains an hour from Plymouth to Penzance, connections to branches should be reasonable enough).

Instead of thinking of St. Ives, Falmouth and Looe as "demoted to nothing more than branch lines", they look to be places with a practical railway service of use all year round, rather than the weird branch that is Newquay, where you might as well close all intermediate stations because they seem too inconvenient to serve properly and nothing seems to happen before ten in the morning (unlike the local bus services - First Kernow must be delighted in FGW!).

(the same applies to re-openings, where a short simple stub like Ebbq Vale works perfectly well without needing exotic services to places hundreds of miles away or anything particularly complicated with the timetable)

That said, some people on here will undoubtably prefer Newquay (quirky timetable... a handful of long distance services to far flung destinations... named trains... no two "days" with the same service) because that's more interesting to them than functional/ practical services. Fair enough.
 

Ianigsy

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At one time the Great Western intended Falmouth to be the point where New York-bound passengers would transfer to a steamship to complete their journey.

I always thought this was a missed opportunity when the Class 180s came along- it wouldn't have taken much imagination to run a pair together as far as Par or Truro, one unit continues to Penzance and the other on to the branch.
 

edwin_m

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At one time the Great Western intended Falmouth to be the point where New York-bound passengers would transfer to a steamship to complete their journey.

I always thought this was a missed opportunity when the Class 180s came along- it wouldn't have taken much imagination to run a pair together as far as Par or Truro, one unit continues to Penzance and the other on to the branch.
Even earlier than that, the Cornwall Railway ran from Plymouth to Falmouth on the broad gauge and Truro to Penzance was originally a separate company (the West Cornwall Railway) with a station on the other side of Truro and built to standard gauge.
 

Deafdoggie

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As a tourist to Cornwall, I'm more than happy with trains to mainline stations, and regular connections. If I can get to St Erth and there is a train every 30 mins to St ives, that is fine, same on Falmouth branch. Both these then make it better for day trippers too, What I don't understand is why Hayle has such a poor service. Station in centre of town, at least three holiday parks, and yet most trains don't bother with the stop.
 

yorksrob

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For me, I would find the addition of a passenger service to Fowey with good connections more useful than additional through services to existing branches.
 

dk1

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Falmouth branch is far too busy these days with the half hourly frequency. Last thing needed would be long distance services messing up reliability & complicating things.
 

Rhydgaled

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If Newquay has through intercity services with GWR and XC, why don't the equally (more?) popular resorts of St. Ives, Falmouth and Looe.

When did these resorts get demoted to nothing more than branch lines?

Will they ever be reinstated? Falmoutj to Leeds, St. Ives to London, Looe to Manchester? Just a few thougts. Or join from the branches on to the main line. Voyagers from St. Ives, Falmoutj and Newquay to Brum?
If anything, I think the Newquay shuttles to and from Par are the odd ones for not running through. The other three Cornish branches (not counting the Gunnislake line which is also in Devon) all have convenient bay platforms where the branch service can terminate and the connections from Looe and St. Ives face the wrong way for through services to Plymouth without reversal. Admittedly the Newquay platform at Par can be used as a bay without an issue, but the infrequent service reduces the likelyhood of finding a good connection with mainline services. If the Newquay local services all ran through to Plymouth, they would give Lostwithiel, Bodmin Parkway, Liskeard, Menheniot, St. Germans, Saltash, St. Budeaux, Keyham, Dockyard and Devonport some extra services and/or possibly allow a reduction in calls by Intercity services at some of those places. Also, extending the Newquay services to Plymouth might help to time arrivals in Par from Newquay to connect with mainline services to Penzance and the vice-versa in the opposite direction. Local services on branch lines elsewhere don't necessarily terminate at their junction with a more-important line (eg. Pembroke Dock trains don't often terminate at Whitland; they continue to Swansea); Newquay might benifit from being more like that.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Just had a look and it does have an utterly bizarre timetable that appears to be straight out of the 1950s. Why *not*, when the through trains aren't running, run 2 hourly clockface from maybe 7am to 9pm (11pm on a Friday for weekend trippers from London)? It would only require a single unit.
 

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It is a pity that the once mooted re-opening of the Burngullow Junction to St. Dennis Junction line never happened. This would have connected St. Austell to Newquay, thus increasing local traffic and shortening the branch, improving unit utilisation. For the sake of a few miles of track, some signalling work and a new bay at St. Austell, a far better service could have been provided.
 

Esker-pades

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As a tourist to Cornwall, I'm more than happy with trains to mainline stations, and regular connections. If I can get to St Erth and there is a train every 30 mins to St ives, that is fine, same on Falmouth branch. Both these then make it better for day trippers too, What I don't understand is why Hayle has such a poor service. Station in centre of town, at least three holiday parks, and yet most trains don't bother with the stop.

It has a fraction of the annual patronage of Redruth, Cambourne and others. ~80k per year compared to ~340k (Redruth) or ~265k (Cambourne).
 

Western Lord

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I think If possible they should reopen the illfracombe line.
Ilfracombe station was inconveniently situated on a hill above the town about a mile from the seafront. If you were going to reopen anything it should be the Padstow branch, from Bodmin Road, sorry, Parkway. With the fashionability of Padstow it would be heaving with passengers, but you would have to demolish some of Wadebridge!
 
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Chester1

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It is a pity that the once mooted re-opening of the Burngullow Junction to St. Dennis Junction line never happened. This would have connected St. Austell to Newquay, thus increasing local traffic and shortening the branch, improving unit utilisation. For the sake of a few miles of track, some signalling work and a new bay at St. Austell, a far better service could have been provided.

Definitely would be more useful and its plausible considering the relatively short distance closed. The freight line wouldn't need to be upgraded much to better the current line journey times. One passing loop would be enough to support an hourly DMU, freight and an occasional summer long distance service. The redundant line would be good for heritage services too. Falmouth should get long distance services if there is more investment in capacity but a half hourly self contained DMU seems to be about right for now.
 

Deafdoggie

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It has a fraction of the annual patronage of Redruth, Cambourne and others. ~80k per year compared to ~340k (Redruth) or ~265k (Cambourne).

But that is because nothing stops! I have to buy tickets to St Erth instead, thus showing that St Erth is busy and Hayle isn't. Let's be honest there is nothing in St Erth itself, if not going to St Ives why go there?

Hayle taxis meanwhile do a roaring trade meeting trains at st Erth and taking everyone back to Hayle. Bizarre
 

InterCity:125

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Down to Falmouth is mostly single line which limits capacity meaning low chances for express trains coming from London.
 

Warwick

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But that is because nothing stops! I have to buy tickets to St Erth instead, thus showing that St Erth is busy and Hayle isn't. Let's be honest there is nothing in St Erth itself, if not going to St Ives why go there?

Hayle taxis meanwhile do a roaring trade meeting trains at st Erth and taking everyone back to Hayle. Bizarre
. St. Erth is a proper station with a ticket office, waiting room and buffet. Hayle is little more than a halt.
 

AM9

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For me, I would find the addition of a passenger service to Fowey with good connections more useful than additional through services to existing branches.
Were it not for the china clay business operating on the Fowey River and the line from Fowey Station to St Blazey being given over to trucks carrying the stuff, there might still be a branch line service there. It would be difficult to connect directly to the mainline, so access from Plymouth and the rest of Britain would be from the Lostwithiel end. It would be possible in high season to run through via Fowey, St Blazey and on to Newquay if it was deemed necessary. The only bit missing would be how to get passengers from the south west extremeties via the main line through Par onto the extended branch, - maybe a shuttle bus (free to ticket holders).
 
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For me, I would find the addition of a passenger service to Fowey with good connections more useful than additional through services to existing branches.
I think Fowey may reopen one day, probably 20 yrs, or when china clay traffic becomes insignificant. The line is open to Carne Point, 1 mile from the Town.

Falmouth was proposed several times, today the passing loop would prevent longer through train stopping at Penryn, because of shortened platforms/ loop. Also the terminus platform would have to be lengthened - not easy, either block the docks branch or gain land at the far end.
St Ives more through trains to from Penzance would be good. There are only few today.
The Newquay service is sad today, thanks to the removal of platforms at Newquay in the 80's. No good for commuting, and Summer Saturdays the local service is reduced to 1 local train per day. Long distance train no longer stop at stations on the branch.
 

Esker-pades

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But that is because nothing stops! I have to buy tickets to St Erth instead, thus showing that St Erth is busy and Hayle isn't. Let's be honest there is nothing in St Erth itself, if not going to St Ives why go there?

Hayle taxis meanwhile do a roaring trade meeting trains at st Erth and taking everyone back to Hayle. Bizarre

I've looked up the departures from Hayle, and it gets ~1tph (with gaps). That's hardly nothing. http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/HYL/2018/09/05/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt
 
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