Manchester Airport railway station, discussion and ideas

[driver_m]

Close both airports and build a mega one at Parkside (Newton le Willows) instead. Close the thread.


I've just read the thread and was confronted with more whining than a row of 747s on full power. People speaking German. (can certain posters on here stop comparing stuff to various bahns and stuff when most of us have never been to Germany and have no idea what you're blathering on about.) and the usual Liverpool v Manchester nonsense. Many ex-BR managers saw the airport link as a very long shunt neck for Manchester Piccadilly and to be honest, I can't argue that one bit. But seriously, stick 15/16 in and open a proper rail link to Speke Airport and everyone should be happy. Should

 

[Bantamzen]

Are you honestly saying that another 4 TPH via Castlefield, with precisely zero infrastructure improvements, has played no pary in causing the meltdown of train services in central Manchester ?

Oh come on, you know all too well that lot, if not most of the problems stem from TPE services arriving into Greater Manchester late after tripping over themselves through the TP core. And if you don't believe take a look at any day's timings in RTT & you will see regular delays forming or worsening between York and Manchester Victoria.

The rest of the problems, as I've previously said are down to the failure of the government to see through the rest of the improvements that were supposed to go alongside the Ordsall Chord project.

 

[Altfish]

I am sure that there must be someone on this thread who can explain the raison d'etre as to why the Manchester Victoria to Manchester Airport Metrolink service takes the long and convoluted route it does, which does seem to have a transportation system for airport workers in the many districts of Wythenshawe incorporated in its routing.

On top of what others has said, It is also quicker if you are heading to the west end of Manchester, GMex (as was), Bridgewater Hall, Midland Hotel, Castlefield and probably Media City

 

[B&I]

I am sure that there must be someone on this thread who can explain the raison d'etre as to why the Manchester Victoria to Manchester Airport Metrolink service takes the long and convoluted route it does, which does seem to have a transportation system for airport workers in the many districts of Wythenshawe incorporated in its routing.

Which is fair enough, given the size and sprawl of the estate, but why there isn't also a shorter line bypassing Wythenshawe I don't know

 

[B&I]

Close both airports and build a mega one at Parkside (Newton le Willows) instead. Close the thread.


I've just read the thread and was confronted with more whining than a row of 747s on full power. People speaking German. (can certain posters on here stop comparing stuff to various bahns and stuff when most of us have never been to Germany and have no idea what you're blathering on about.) and the usual Liverpool v Manchester nonsense. Many ex-BR managers saw the airport link as a very long shunt neck for Manchester Piccadilly and to be honest, I can't argue that one bit. But seriously, stick 15/16 in and open a proper rail link to Speke Airport and everyone should be happy. Should

Yes, re that Liverpool v Manchester thing, the tendency some Mancunianally inclined posters have to dismiss any challenge to the status quo as Scouse whingeing is very tiresome, isn't it ? I'm sure you would never find yourself doing that.

A long siding from Piccadilly is one thing, though most long sidings don't lead through an area of track so congested that we're about to spend billions on a tunnel bypassing it. A long siding from Victoria through the middle of central Manchester is another matter

An airport at RAF Burtonwood to replace Liverpool and Manchester would have been a much better idea - as handy for most of tje Liverpool and Manchester conurbations as Speke and Ringway are, easily connectable to the WCML and both main Liverpool-Manchester lines, and within easy reach of the Preston, Fylde, East Lancashire and Chester conurbations too.

Sadly, AIUI, both Liverpool and Manchester's leadership conspired in the late 60s to kibbosh this idea by exaggerating the problem of mining subsidence (which did exist, but was eventually solved - the M62 runs down the path of what was one of Burtonwood's runways). Municipal boosterism was getting in the way of rational decision-making 50 years ago as well

 

[B&I]

Oh come on, you know all too well that lot, if not most of the problems stem from TPE services arriving into Greater Manchester late after tripping over themselves through the TP core. And if you don't believe take a look at any day's timings in RTT & you will see regular delays forming or worsening between York and Manchester Victoria.

The rest of the problems, as I've previously said are down to the failure of the government to see through the rest of the improvements that were supposed to go alongside the Ordsall Chord project.

A lot, maybe most, but not all. Anyway, even if Castlefield is working perfectly in isolation, is it a good idea to route more trains into it when these are subject to continual delays thanks to the problems you point out on the connected area of track ?

And, for the umpteenth time, I agree that the root cause of the current situation is the government's parsimonius and counter-productive approach to infrastructure in central Manchester. But, as the irritating cliche runs, we are where we are, and we need to tailor services to achieve workability using current infrastructure

 

[B&I]

Thanks to all of those who have vociferously demonstrated why a Metrolink connection to Manchester Airport alone would be inadequate. I wholeheartedly agree. Presumably, if you feel that a light rail line is inadequate to serve a major international airport, then buses are an inadequate way to provide public transport to most of the north's other international airports ?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Thanks to all of those who have vociferously demonstrated why a Metrolink connection to Manchester Airport alone would be inadequate. I wholeheartedly agree. Presumably, if you feel that a light rail line is inadequate to serve a major international airport, then buses are an inadequate way to provide public transport to most of the north's other international airports ?

You raise a point here. I wonder what size and capacity in terms of long-distance continental destinations served, number of runways and terminal facilities an airport has to be away from the London region to carry the title of an international rather than a domestic airport.

 

[notlob.divad]

On top of what others has said, It is also quicker if you are heading to the west end of Manchester, GMex (as was), Bridgewater Hall, Midland Hotel, Castlefield and probably Media City

So you are saying it is quicker to get from the airport to the ex Gmex (aka Deansgate/Castlefield Metrolink station) than it is on the trains - those ones that passe through the adjacent Deansgate station, before doubling back on themself through Victoria.

This is the kind of absurd logic that triggers these debates.

 

[B&I]

So you are saying it is quicker to get from the airport to the ex Gmex (aka Deansgate/Castlefield Metrolink station) than it is on the trains - those ones that passe through the adjacent Deansgate station, before doubling back on themself through Victoria.

This is the kind of absurd logic that triggers these debates.

Practically speaking, it probably is, as the Metrolink line isn't plagued by constant delays as the trains passing through Castlefield would be

 

[Bantamzen]

A lot, maybe most, but not all. Anyway, even if Castlefield is working perfectly in isolation, is it a good idea to route more trains into it when these are subject to continual delays thanks to the problems you point out on the connected area of track ?

So you agree that a lot of the problems are caused elsewhere in the TP core? So if TPE sort out that by splitting stoppers at Huddersfield, decreasing the number of Hull service calls, and allow for one additional unit (when available) to be added to the diagrams, this will solve a lot of the delays through Manchester? If so then we are almost on the same page, my only concern is that TPE can't at least start splitting the stoppers sooner to start to filter in at least some benefits sooner than the December timetable.

But clearly there is a potential solution without curtailing some airport services, and given the growth in rail use at Manchester Airport in recent years might not be the best idea from a business point of view.

And, for the umpteenth time, I agree that the root cause of the current situation is the government's parsimonius and counter-productive approach to infrastructure in central Manchester. But, as the irritating cliche runs, we are where we are, and we need to tailor services to achieve workability using current infrastructure

And that is what is seemingly being proposed over on the 'TransPennine Express North Route, New Timetable' thread over in the Allocations sub-fourm:

But there are no more trains under this timetable. There always were 6tph - 5 x TPE and 1 x Northern. Now there are just 6 x TPE as the stopping train has transferred. It's the timing and spacing of the trains which is wrong and causing the issue.

As an aside confirmed today as most likely to happen in December, with final confirmation in around 3 to 4 weeks:
- Leeds to Man Picc Stopping train to be split at Huddersfield and run as two services.
- Some stops removed from the Hull train and transferred to the stopping train.
- An additional unit added to the cycle during the day so that North East to Airport services have 40 minute turn round at Man Airport instead of the current 10.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ute-new-timetable.164702/page-15#post-3584470

If the originating problem is in the TP North core, then that is where it needs to be tackled. Curtailing through services, or as some have suggested re-routing the airport services via Guide Bridge and reversing at Piccadilly won't solve the problems in the core (indeed the Guide Bridge services pre-May timetable had their own problems, especially the Liverpool ones), or even all the problems through Castlefield. So getting to the heart of the problem, and getting the core TPE services running back on time and arriving at Castlefield on time most of the time will alleviate a good many of the current issues.

Then as the new stock & greater capacity rolls out, dwell times can hopefully reduce making the passage through Manchester that bit smoother. It can and does work, I know I've been across Ordsall Chord and off/onto the TP North chord on time on a few occasions now, it just needs better timetable resilience built back in after the mess that the May changes brought about. Then, as we both agree on there needs to be serious pressure applied to government to get the P15/16 project kicked off, and as I believe get the core wired to maximise the benefits of electric traction that will be available to TPE.

 

[B&I]

You raise a point here. I wonder what size and capacity in terms of long-distance continental destinations served, number of runways and terminal facilities an airport has to be away from the London region to carry the title of an international rather than a domestic airport.

In fairness, I was using 'international airport' in the literal sense of 'airport with international services'. However, I think we could all agree that the north has 3 major airports in addition to Manchester, and that 2 of those are only served by bus, while a third has local light rail / metro to a limited number of destinations.

 

[notlob.divad]

You raise a point here. I wonder what size and capacity in terms of long-distance continental destinations served, number of runways and terminal facilities an airport has to be away from the London region to carry the title of an international rather than a domestic airport.

Thats easy, given the defenition of international is:

Existing, occurring, or carried on between nations.

An international airport is one that has flights that are, Existing, occurring, or carried on between nations.

So a single flight a week to an airport in another country would makes something an international airport. Thus almost every airport on the island of Britain is an international airport. Land's End airport, and Stornoway being two exceptions.

 

[driver_m]

Yes, re that Liverpool v Manchester thing, the tendency some Mancunianally inclined posters have to dismiss any challenge to the status quo as Scouse whingeing is very tiresome, isn't it ? I'm sure you would never find yourself doing that.

A long siding from Piccadilly is one thing, though most long sidings don't lead through an area of track so congested that we're about to spend billions on a tunnel bypassing it. A long siding from Victoria through the middle of central Manchester is another matter

An airport at RAF Burtonwood to replace Liverpool and Manchester would have been a much better idea - as handy for most of tje Liverpool and Manchester conurbations as Speke and Ringway are, easily connectable to the WCML and both main Liverpool-Manchester lines, and within easy reach of the Preston, Fylde, East Lancashire and Chester conurbations too.

Sadly, AIUI, both Liverpool and Manchester's leadership conspired in the late 60s to kibbosh this idea by exaggerating the problem of mining subsidence (which did exist, but was eventually solved - the M62 runs down the path of what was one of Burtonwood's runways). Municipal boosterism was getting in the way of rational decision-making 50 years ago as well

As someone who lives between both cities, I feel I can be objective on the subject of Liverpool v Manchester, whereas you can't. I like both places and both have their pros and cons. But much as it will trigger you, there are far too many scousers obsessed with what they perceive as Manchester getting things they don't get. You only have to look at the Liverpool Echo comments page on stories to see this day in, day out. meanwhile the South East gobbles up all the money and laughs at the 2 big cities who have historically fought each other rather than work together to get proper funding for the North .

 

[Altfish]

Thanks to all of those who have vociferously demonstrated why a Metrolink connection to Manchester Airport alone would be inadequate. I wholeheartedly agree. Presumably, if you feel that a light rail line is inadequate to serve a major international airport, then buses are an inadequate way to provide public transport to most of the north's other international airports ?

Buses are inadequate in most cases. The light rail to Manchester Airport is only inadequate because it serves other destinations and is primarily for commuters/shoppers/locals.
The fact that I support rail to Manchester Airport doesn't mean that I don't support rail to all our regional airports. Off course Liverpool should have a connection, and Leeds (not easy?) and Newcastle. That doesn't mean that I shouldn't lobby for improvements to Manchester either.

 

[B&I]

.

So you agree that a lot of the problems are caused elsewhere in the TP core? So if TPE sort out that by splitting stoppers at Huddersfield, decreasing the number of Hull service calls, and allow for one additional unit (when available) to be added to the diagrams, this will solve a lot of the delays through Manchester? If so then we are almost on the same page, my only concern is that TPE can't at least start splitting the stoppers sooner to start to filter in at least some benefits sooner than the December timetable.

But clearly there is a potential solution without curtailing some airport services, and given the growth in rail use at Manchester Airport in recent years might not be the best idea from a business point of view.



And that is what is seemingly being proposed over on the 'TransPennine Express North Route, New Timetable' thread over in the Allocations sub-fourm:



https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ute-new-timetable.164702/page-15#post-3584470

If the originating problem is in the TP North core, then that is where it needs to be tackled. Curtailing through services, or as some have suggested re-routing the airport services via Guide Bridge and reversing at Piccadilly won't solve the problems in the core (indeed the Guide Bridge services pre-May timetable had their own problems, especially the Liverpool ones), or even all the problems through Castlefield. So getting to the heart of the problem, and getting the core TPE services running back on time and arriving at Castlefield on time most of the time will alleviate a good many of the current issues.

Then as the new stock & greater capacity rolls out, dwell times can hopefully reduce making the passage through Manchester that bit smoother. It can and does work, I know I've been across Ordsall Chord and off/onto the TP North chord on time on a few occasions now, it just needs better timetable resilience built back in after the mess that the May changes brought about. Then, as we both agree on there needs to be serious pressure applied to government to get the P15/16 project kicked off, and as I believe get the core wired to maximise the benefits of electric traction that will be available to TPE.

I remain to be convinced that solving problems east of Manchester will, by itself, solve all of the problems through Castlefield, but perhaps I'll be proven wrong. I also remain to be convinced that so many fast trains between Piccadilly and Leeds are, at present, either desirable or necessary, but of course I'm in danger of taking potshots at another sacred can of worms with that subject.

Incidentally, I have never argued that all the problems in Manchester were due to the extra airport trains through Castlefield, or that TP was perfect before May. The Liverpool service has been late at Victoria on, I would estimate, 90% of the times I have taken it since commencement. However, I do feel that ramming extra trains through the Castlefield mess has made a bad situation worse.

Writing this, incidentally, in the course of a journey from Broad Green to Bradford Interchange, which is taking 2 hrs 20 mins and 2 changes to travel 64 miles, a feat which can be accomplished, according to a well-known mapping app, in 1 hour less (even in current traffic conditions) by car. This is the sort of everyday reality of train travel in the north that we are in danger of forgetting

 

[Bantamzen]

As someone who lives between both cities, I feel I can be objective on the subject of Liverpool v Manchester, whereas you can't. I like both places and both have their pros and cons. But much as it will trigger you, there are far too many scousers obsessed with what they perceive as Manchester getting things they don't get. You only have to look at the Liverpool Echo comments page on stories to see this day in, day out. meanwhile the South East gobbles up all the money and laughs at the 2 big cities who have historically fought each other rather than work together to get proper funding for the North .

This is true of many northern cities, which is why TfN was conceived in the first place and why they place quite a lot of value on infrastructure links across the region & to the main airport, which is unquestionably Manchester is. And as far as the airports go, certainly if Manchester were to greatly expand it's long haul traffic, which is its aspiration, then the smaller airports like Liverpool, LBA, Doncaster etc would happily lap up more of the charter and short haul traffic. Which in itself would better benefit those airports and surrounding economies by not only having a greater exposure to long haul destinations not too far away, but also more flights locally to European destinations can help drive markets like tourism.

What a lot of us Northern folk have got to get past are these local rivalries and see past them to a bigger picture. No one single city in the region is ever going to get anything like the investment that the capital does, but as a region we might be able to construct a case to see a similar level of investment made in the long run giving some benefits to all areas.

 

[Altfish]

So you are saying it is quicker to get from the airport to the ex Gmex (aka Deansgate/Castlefield Metrolink station) than it is on the trains - those ones that passe through the adjacent Deansgate station, before doubling back on themself through Victoria.

This is the kind of absurd logic that triggers these debates.

OK, good point, I forgot about the stoppers. However, I think (and I stand to be corrected) there are only 2 an hour direct and they are badly spaced at about 15 minutes apart. So if you've just missed the latter of those two the tram is a better option.
I'd still argue it is more convenient if you are staying at The Midland Hotel or other hotels near St. Peter's Square and have suitcases to use the tram.

I've just checked the travel times Trains v Trams to Deansgate Castlefield from the Airport - both show as 47 minutes. Maybe my logic wasn't quite so absurd.

 

[Bantamzen]

.Writing this, incidentally, in the course of a journey from Broad Green to Bradford Interchange, which is taking 2 hrs 20 mins and 2 changes to travel 64 miles, a feat which can be accomplished, according to a well-known mapping app, in 1 hour less (even in current traffic conditions) by car. This is the sort of everyday reality of train travel in the north that we are in danger of forgetting

Yes, I've just checked the same and the M62 is amazingly not showing amber or red with the traffic filter applied for almost the entire Manchester-Leeds stretch. But this is a good day, and judging by the unusually empty Ilkley-Leeds train I caught this morning, a very quiet commuter day. But one of the reasons that so much stock is put into the rail links is that the good M62 days are getting less frequent by the year, its not unusual for there to be almost daily problems during the week, with accidents being the highest cause of them. And when they happen, they can turn a hour drive into two and a half hours of staring at the brake lights of the vehicle in front as you trundle along, losing the will to live....

 

[B&I]

As someone who lives between both cities, I feel I can be objective on the subject of Liverpool v Manchester, whereas you can't. I like both places and both have their pros and cons. But much as it will trigger you, there are far too many scousers obsessed with what they perceive as Manchester getting things they don't get. You only have to look at the Liverpool Echo comments page on stories to see this day in, day out. meanwhile the South East gobbles up all the money and laughs at the 2 big cities who have historically fought each other rather than work together to get proper funding for the North .

For someone who 'can' be objective, you rarely seem to make the effort.

The only thing 'triggering' about your post is that, as I have told you before, I am not a Scouser, although I remember your response then was 'you're behaving like a stereotype of one'. You were at the time arguing vociferously that it was justifiable for TP to abandon their service commitment to a conurbation of over 1.5 million people for 2 months, because it was too difficult to install a mobile welfare facility at Huyton station.

However, it is not your fault that you have so internalised prejudice against Liverpool that you are incapable of appraising any issue concerning the city except through the filter of your own bias. This prejudice is, after all, prevalant across England, and particularly strong in small towns in the north west suffering from inferiority complexes.

I suspect as well that you suffer from an excess of conventional thinking, reflected in your apparent belief that Liverpool and Manchester are united in a common endeavour against the south-east, rather than a struggle between them for the few crumbs London allows to fall from its table. Tell me, when was the last time anyone in a leadership role in Manchester, except Andy Burnham, argued in favour of any sort of spending or development at all in Liverpool ? (Presumably Andy Burnham is in your view a whingeing Scouser whose views can be safely ignored.)

 

[edwin_m]

Love the idea [heavy rail to Newcastle Airport] but think it might just run into a few practical difficulties!

Some may not be aware that for some years after Metro opened there were freight services using the route from a south to west connection at Benton round the back of Gosforth depot to the Rowntrees plant near Fawdon (IIRC) and ICI at Callerton which was at the time served by the remains of the Ponteland branch beyond the end of Metro at Bank Foot. So although the connection has been taken out the section between Benton and Bank Foot probably still has the clearances and possibly some of the signalling to accommodate workings off the national network. I believe something like this is suggested in one of the Metro expansion strategies.

Which is fair enough, given the size and sprawl of the estate, but why there isn't also a shorter line bypassing Wythenshawe I don't know

Because the quick route from the city centre to the airport is heavy rail from Oxford Road or Piccadilly.

 

[Killingworth]

In fairness, I was using 'international airport' in the literal sense of 'airport with international services'. However, I think we could all agree that the north has 3 major airports in addition to Manchester, and that 2 of those are only served by bus, while a third has local light rail / metro to a limited number of destinations.

Direct Metro from Newcastle Airport to Sunderland is not in the same league as any TPE, especially when the new trains arrive with longitudinal seating back to windows and packed with standees through central Newcastle!

 

[B&I]

This is true of many northern cities, which is why TfN was conceived in the first place and why they place quite a lot of value on infrastructure links across the region & to the main airport, which is unquestionably Manchester is. And as far as the airports go, certainly if Manchester were to greatly expand it's long haul traffic, which is its aspiration, then the smaller airports like Liverpool, LBA, Doncaster etc would happily lap up more of the charter and short haul traffic. Which in itself would better benefit those airports and surrounding economies by not only having a greater exposure to long haul destinations not too far away, but also more flights locally to European destinations can help drive markets like tourism.

What a lot of us Northern folk have got to get past are these local rivalries and see past them to a bigger picture. No one single city in the region is ever going to get anything like the investment that the capital does, but as a region we might be able to construct a case to see a similar level of investment made in the long run giving some benefits to all areas.

And this is the sort of comment which makes me feel, along eith thr continued widening of the north-south gap.and the lack of real improvements in the 7 or so years since it was invented, that the 'Northern Powerhouse' is abit.of rhetorical window dressing, designed to maintain the economic status quo

 

[B&I]

Direct Metro from Newcastle Airport to Sunderland is not in the same league as any TPE, especially when the new trains arrive with longitudinal seating back to windows and packed with standees through central Newcastle!

I wasn't arguing that it was. It's a better service than Liverpool or (especially) Leeds-Bradford receives, but it's still not good. And that's before we get on to the extent of your conurbation which the Metro and heavy rail don't cover, although everywhere outside London (Manchester included) have the same problem

 

[B&I]

Some may not be aware that for some years after Metro opened there were freight services using the route from a south to west connection at Benton round the back of Gosforth depot to the Rowntrees plant near Fawdon (IIRC) and ICI at Callerton which was at the time served by the remains of the Ponteland branch beyond the end of Metro at Bank Foot. So although the connection has been taken out the section between Benton and Bank Foot probably still has the clearances and possibly some of the signalling to accommodate workings off the national network. I believe something like this is suggested in one of the Metro expansion strategies.


Because the quick route from the city centre to the airport is heavy rail from Oxford Road or Piccadilly.

What if you're in the densely-populated and fairly affluent suburbs along the northern part of the Airport / East Didsbury branch ? Should you go into central Manchester and out again ?

If Manchester wants to throw all its local public transport eggs into a Metrolink-shaped basket, it could at least make the network comprehensive

 

[B&I]

Yes, I've just checked the same and the M62 is amazingly not showing amber or red with the traffic filter applied for almost the entire Manchester-Leeds stretch. But this is a good day, and judging by the unusually empty Ilkley-Leeds train I caught this morning, a very quiet commuter day. But one of the reasons that so much stock is put into the rail links is that the good M62 days are getting less frequent by the year, its not unusual for there to be almost daily problems during the week, with accidents being the highest cause of them. And when they happen, they can turn a hour drive into two and a half hours of staring at the brake lights of the vehicle in front as you trundle along, losing the will to live....

Yes, and I've seen the M62 on days like that, and I was pretty surprised by what the journey planner told me.

More broadly, we seem to me to be adopting a worst of both worlds approach to the rail network across the north - over-concentrating services on a limited number of lines, but failing to improve their capacity to cope with the demands being placed on them. Part of the problem is the adoption, beneath the Powerhousy rhetoric, of a 'mini-London' approach to Northern development, promoting one single hub city, hub airport, hub railway stations etc, because that's what the south-east has, rather than recognising that the north is a complicated network of destinations (including a dozen or so big conurbations) with interacting travel patterns.

The problem needs some big ticket solutions - in particular, new north and south lines across the Pennines (you can't serve Sheffield, Bradford and Leeds, and more widely Hull, York and the north-east, with a single line).

However, there also needs to be a huge improvement in local transport, rail or otherwise, which is being largely neglected in favour of focusing on a handful of honeypot destinations. Manchester is as good an example of that as any other. Why is it frequently easier and quicker to reach the aiport by public transport from the far side of the Pennines, than from many parts of south Manchester ?

 

[Killingworth]

I wasn't arguing that it was. It's a better service than Liverpool or (especially) Leeds-Bradford receives, but it's still not good. And that's before we get on to the extent of your conurbation which the Metro and heavy rail don't cover, although everywhere outside London (Manchester included) have the same problem

Quite, we're making the same point!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Until people stop blaming Manchester Airport bound services for the current problems around the North West & beyond, I fear this debate will keeping going around in circles. Over on the TPE May timetable thread it has been suggested that splitting the stoppers and reducing the number of calls for the Hull services, as well as one extra unit shows their focus is on the TP North core. And quite honestly it is as plain as the nose on one's face that this is at the heart of the problem, not services extending a bit past Manchester.

I'm not *blaming* it, I'm just suggesting it is not a good use of presently limited resources (DMUs under the wires, capacity through Castlefield).

 

[Bantamzen]

And this is the sort of comment which makes me feel, along eith thr continued widening of the north-south gap.and the lack of real improvements in the 7 or so years since it was invented, that the 'Northern Powerhouse' is abit.of rhetorical window dressing, designed to maintain the economic status quo

Maybe it is, but right now at least this & the current problems are keeping at least some Whitehall focus on the issue. In a daft, and somewhat depressing kind of way the May timetables have exposed the lack of real investment, and weakens the idea that the North's infrastructure can just be solved with a handful of token schemes instead of the wider solutions that were boringly on the table.

Yes, and I've seen the M62 on days like that, and I was pretty surprised by what the journey planner told me.

More broadly, we seem to me to be adopting a worst of both worlds approach to the rail network across the north - over-concentrating services on a limited number of lines, but failing to improve their capacity to cope with the demands being placed on them. Part of the problem is the adoption, beneath the Powerhousy rhetoric, of a 'mini-London' approach to Northern development, promoting one single hub city, hub airport, hub railway stations etc, because that's what the south-east has, rather than recognising that the north is a complicated network of destinations (including a dozen or so big conurbations) with interacting travel patterns.

The problem needs some big ticket solutions - in particular, new north and south lines across the Pennines (you can't serve Sheffield, Bradford and Leeds, and more widely Hull, York and the north-east, with a single line).

However, there also needs to be a huge improvement in local transport, rail or otherwise, which is being largely neglected in favour of focusing on a handful of honeypot destinations. Manchester is as good an example of that as any other. Why is it frequently easier and quicker to reach the aiport by public transport from the far side of the Pennines, than from many parts of south Manchester ?

If we are struggling to get what are relatively modest infrastructural projects like P15/16 and the North TP wiring off the ground, then as much as I'd like to see the big ticket schemes go ahead I fear that even one or both of the HS2 spurs, let alone a new Trans-Pennine alignment and other possible new ones will never get beyond the design stage. Its probably why I feel so strongly about not dialling back any attempts at improvement made so far, rather get them solved. Many, many years in public sector employment with a long exposure to decision makers has told me that once the fear of failure sets in it becomes a rot.

So in context of this the Northern Powerhouse idea, as soon as the Blackpool sparks started to run into delays and coming in over budget, you could almost predict that other projects like the North TP wiring would fall victim to the "public sector fear factor", because instead of trying to understand the reasons why, the public sector decision makers go into overdrive trying to put off future project decisions. I am fully certain that P15/16 & TP wiring decision delays are purely down to this, otherwise they both would have passed design stages & would at least be entering planning if not construction stages some time ago.

For a Friday, I am suddenly very depressed about the whole thing....

 

[Bletchleyite]

Which is fair enough, given the size and sprawl of the estate, but why there isn't also a shorter line bypassing Wythenshawe I don't know

Because it isn't an airport express, there is already one of those (the subject of this thread, indeed). It is, to coin a phrase, a local service for local people.