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ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

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Kettledrum

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2+5 sets cannot be accommodated at Haymarket depot until the extension to the maintenance shed is completed hence starting with a 2+4.

That's a shame, as 2+4 sets might well prove to be too short for demand. Well done to Scotland though for showing us what can be done.
 

RLBH

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That's a shame, as 2+4 sets might well prove to be too short for demand. Well done to Scotland though for showing us what can be done.
Presumably 2+4s will initially replace 3-car 170s, so still an uplift in capacity, with the services worked by two units getting the 2+5 HSTs first as they come in.
 

TheMuttley

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Presumably 2+4s will initially replace 3-car 170s, so still an uplift in capacity, with the services worked by two units getting the 2+5 HSTs first as they come in.
To be honest, that concerns me a little - is the replacement of a double 170 with a 2+5 HST really an upgrade in capacity? Surely it's a slight reduction, or just roughly equivalent? Perhaps the forthcoming timetable changes will increase capacity by separating out commuter traffic from intercity traffic and increasing the overall number of journeys?
 

sprinterguy

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To be honest, that concerns me a little - is the replacement of a double 170 with a 2+5 HST really an upgrade in capacity? Surely it's a slight reduction, or just roughly equivalent? Perhaps the forthcoming timetable changes will increase capacity by separating out commuter traffic from intercity traffic and increasing the overall number of journeys?
It'd be a notable reduction in terms of standard class seats: A 2+5 HST will seat 280 in Standard (Plus 32 in First, so a total of 312), while a pair of 170s seats 336 in Standard (Plus 36 in First, a total of 372). Though I didn't think there were many services on Edinburgh/Glasgow - Aberdeen/Inverness that operated as pairs of 170s, though I'm aware of a limited number of 170+158 formations.
Presumably 2+4s will initially replace 3-car 170s, so still an uplift in capacity, with the services worked by two units getting the 2+5 HSTs first as they come in.
Not a huge uplift in capacity: 32 First/206 Standard on a 2+4 HST (Total = 238 seats) versus 18 First/168 Standard on a 3-car 170 (Total = 186 seats), but at least its something and the travelling environment should be much improved. And the 2+5 sets will provide a significant increase over a 3-car 170.
 
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RLBH

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To be honest, that concerns me a little - is the replacement of a double 170 with a 2+5 HST really an upgrade in capacity? Surely it's a slight reduction, or just roughly equivalent? Perhaps the forthcoming timetable changes will increase capacity by separating out commuter traffic from intercity traffic and increasing the overall number of journeys?
Capacities are:
Class 170 - 18F/168S
2+4 HST - 32F/206S
2+5 HST - 32F/280S

So a 2+4 is an increase of 14 First Class and 38 Standard seats over a single 170. A 2+5 is a reduction of 4 First Class and 56 Standard seats over a double 170. It's a definite hit compared to a double 170, but they're relatively rare and IME only one unit is normally overcrowded anyway.

What concerns me is the relatively high proportion of First Class accommodation. It doesn't seem well used on the 170s, and ScotRail are going to have to push it hard if they want it to be taken up.
 

najaB

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What concerns me is the relatively high proportion of First Class accommodation. It doesn't seem well used on the 170s, and ScotRail are going to have to push it hard if they want it to be taken up.
Because other than a cup of tea and piece of shortbread, there's not really much point in First class. Throw in a nice plush seat and a slightly better more catering offerening that the buffet should allow (e.g. a option to get a hot sandwich) and it would definitely be worth it.
 

Bletchleyite

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Because other than a cup of tea and piece of shortbread, there's not really much point in First class. Throw in a nice plush seat and a slightly better more catering offerening that the buffet should allow (e.g. a option to get a hot sandwich) and it would definitely be worth it.

The seats are 2+1 and wider than Standard seats. As the weekend upgrade is very reasonably priced, I've used it before on more than one occasion.

I do agree with your point where 1st is 2+2, though, in particular the ridiculous First on Class 350s (other than /2 and /4) where it is less comfortable and has less legroom than Standard.
 

RLBH

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Because other than a cup of tea and piece of shortbread, there's not really much point in First class. Throw in a nice plush seat and a slightly better more catering offerening that the buffet should allow (e.g. a option to get a hot sandwich) and it would definitely be worth it.
When I was trailing up to Inverness every weekend, I almost always upgraded on the way back on a Sunday, but would never have bothered on the way up on a Friday night. After a couple of decades of training Scottish rail travellers not to bother with First Class because it costs 50% more for not much in return, they're going to have to convince people to come back to it.

A better offering is a start, but they'll need to make sure that people know that it's worth paying the extra for it.
 

Journeyman

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When I was trailing up to Inverness every weekend, I almost always upgraded on the way back on a Sunday, but would never have bothered on the way up on a Friday night. After a couple of decades of training Scottish rail travellers not to bother with First Class because it costs 50% more for not much in return, they're going to have to convince people to come back to it.

A better offering is a start, but they'll need to make sure that people know that it's worth paying the extra for it.

I think the solution is combining introduction of a decent first class offer with a sensible range of Advance fares. ScotRail haven't offered much in this regard, and a first class single from Edinburgh to Inverness is £60+; you can do it on a first class advance on the Chieftain for around twenty quid, with a hell of a lot more thrown in.
 

TheMuttley

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How often do you see double 170s out and about? If anything a 170+158 combo is more likely.
Good point - rarely, if ever (excluding E&G, although obviously quite rare, now that electrics are the norm).
What concerns me is the relatively high proportion of First Class accommodation. It doesn't seem well used on the 170s, and ScotRail are going to have to push it hard if they want it to be taken up.
But as others have mentioned, the market hasn't really been tested because a true ScotRail first class has never existed... until now(ish).
and it would definitely be worth it
Well, under the current ScotRail ticket pricing structures, perhaps, for some business travellers. However, as others have mentioned, to get a truly impressive load factor in first class, ScotRail would need to adopt a more flexible model, like LNER. Perhaps this will follow, in due course...
 

ScotTrains

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There is often only 2 first class advance tickets (£10) available per train. They sell out months in advance yet it often looks quiet/empty in first.
This suggests there is demand but only at a sensible price. Once the £10 advance tickets sell out the next fare is the extortionate Anytime First at over £90 for a single on some routes.

A lot of services are going to get almost double the amount of 1st seats. Hopefully Scotrail will increase the quota of 1st advance tickets and perhaps introduce another tier eg £15 to £20 max.
 

Stopper

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Remember that there will now be several commuter services along the line run by (likely) 170s such as the Glasgow-Dundee/Arbroath semi-fast, Montrose-Inverurie local and Kingussie to Elgin local. This is in addition to the Edinburgh-Dundee semi-fasts that currently run.

So using those services, I think you’re likely to see a lot of commuter stations removed from the longer distance services, such as Larbert, Bridge of Allan, Dunblane, Gleneagles, Invergowrie, Carnoustie (along with anything between Dundee and Arbroath), possible Laurencekirk & Portlethen and even Stirling in the peaks.

That itself is an increase in capacity, removing all of those passengers with the introduction of the semi-fast/local services.
 

TheMuttley

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I think you’re likely to see a lot of commuter stations removed from the longer distance services
Makes complete sense but I guess this can't happen until the timetable changes happen, which in turn cannot happen until the rollout of new HSTs is complete (and reliable, allowing for ironing out glitches etc). So, we may be in for a little more capacity strain until then, but it should hopefully be worth it in the long-term.
 

marks87

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The lip stops other things from sliding off the table, not just drinks - it's saved my phone a good few times. :)

The post I responded to specifically mentioned drinks. And with good reason. If your phone slides off the table, that's more or less the end of it unless you're incredibly unlucky and someone stands on it before you have a chance to pick it up.

Whereas drinks can and will spill, causing not just a mess but potentially burns in the case of hot drinks.
 

najaB

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If your phone slides off the table, that's more or less the end of it unless you're incredibly unlucky and someone stands on it before you have a chance to pick it up.
Unless, as I've seen happen, the person happens not to notice (e.g. they're asleep) and then get off the train without it (fortunately it was a terminal station so they just hopped back on and grabbed it).

Edit: I agree though that a drink is a more immediate danger.
 
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Altnabreac

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Remember that there will now be several commuter services along the line run by (likely) 170s such as the Glasgow-Dundee/Arbroath semi-fast, Montrose-Inverurie local and Kingussie to Elgin local. This is in addition to the Edinburgh-Dundee semi-fasts that currently run.

So using those services, I think you’re likely to see a lot of commuter stations removed from the longer distance services, such as Larbert, Bridge of Allan, Dunblane, Gleneagles, Invergowrie, Carnoustie (along with anything between Dundee and Arbroath), possible Laurencekirk & Portlethen and even Stirling in the peaks.

That itself is an increase in capacity, removing all of those passengers with the introduction of the semi-fast/local services.

And the frequency Perth - Inverness is increasing to hourly. You can't just compare the size of individual trains but you need to look at the number of carriages per hour between specific station pairs. The increase in capacity will be much larger than just going from a three car to a four car at the same frequency.
 

jingsmonty

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Capacities are:
Class 170 - 18F/168S
2+4 HST - 32F/206S
2+5 HST - 32F/280S

So a 2+4 is an increase of 14 First Class and 38 Standard seats over a single 170. A 2+5 is a reduction of 4 First Class and 56 Standard seats over a double 170. It's a definite hit compared to a double 170, but they're relatively rare and IME only one unit is normally overcrowded anyway.

What concerns me is the relatively high proportion of First Class accommodation. It doesn't seem well used on the 170s, and ScotRail are going to have to push it hard if they want it to be taken up.

I think the increase in 1st class accomodation is spot on - the 1st class offer on the HST will be far, far superior to what is on offer on a class 170. Indeed, as has been said before here, a lot of business travellers from Inverness to the south currently make a point of travelling on the LNER Highland Chieftain to travel to the Central Belt - the 1st class offer on a 170 is a joke compared to what LNER offer (same fare, if it's a walk-up...can even be cheaper if you book a 1st class advance on LNER. I've done this myself before - approx £22 single to Edinburgh, with a full cooked breakfast to boot - and I have a Scotrail staff pass too!).

There is a high value market for Scotrail to tap into here - especially if there is some sort of proper hot food offer too (although, obviously not full kitchen, like LNER have), but definetly the potential to tap into a neglected market for Scotrail. Even some sort of leisure off-peak 1st class ticket? Or an upgrade scheme (along the lines of weekend 1st)....
 

jingsmonty

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And the frequency Perth - Inverness is increasing to hourly. You can't just compare the size of individual trains but you need to look at the number of carriages per hour between specific station pairs. The increase in capacity will be much larger than just going from a three car to a four car at the same frequency.

Exactly - although I struggle to see how the HML will accomodate an hourly frequency without major infrastructure work. It struggles with the level of traffic just now, especially if there are any delays. The forthcoming work at Pitlochry & Aviemore is most welcome, but I can't help thinking much more is needed...
 

BRX

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If the HSTs are a success and help to show that there's latent demand...perhaps that will go some small way to making it more politically attractive to suggest greater spending on the HML infrastructure, as well as the A9.
 

gsnedders

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I think the increase in 1st class accomodation is spot on - the 1st class offer on the HST will be far, far superior to what is on offer on a class 170. Indeed, as has been said before here, a lot of business travellers from Inverness to the south currently make a point of travelling on the LNER Highland Chieftain to travel to the Central Belt - the 1st class offer on a 170 is a joke compared to what LNER offer (same fare, if it's a walk-up...can even be cheaper if you book a 1st class advance on LNER. I've done this myself before - approx £22 single to Edinburgh, with a full cooked breakfast to boot - and I have a Scotrail staff pass too!).

There is a high value market for Scotrail to tap into here - especially if there is some sort of proper hot food offer too (although, obviously not full kitchen, like LNER have), but definetly the potential to tap into a neglected market for Scotrail. Even some sort of leisure off-peak 1st class ticket? Or an upgrade scheme (along the lines of weekend 1st)....
I feel like the increase in 1st class accommodation is only spot on if they actually do anything with it, and I feel like that's far from certain!
 

jingsmonty

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I feel like the increase in 1st class accommodation is only spot on if they actually do anything with it, and I feel like that's far from certain!

To be honest, even the ambience & the buffet offer would be a vast improvement on the 170 offer - even having somewhere to store luggage in 1st class would be an upgrade....

Agree that some thought needs to be put into the fare structure (such as limited amounts of advance 1st class tickets, particularly on off-peak trains). If the actual product is far superior (and it will be), Scotrail should make use of it. Or an upgrade scheme for full-fare tickets?

It would be a shame & a waste to not fully market what will be a very high quality 1st class service - as I was saying in my last post, there is a big opportunity to tap into the business market on the HML, the sort of travellers who currently use the LNER Highland Chieftain to travel back & fore to the Central Belt.

We will see, I'm sure....
 

jingsmonty

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If the HSTs are a success and help to show that there's latent demand...perhaps that will go some small way to making it more politically attractive to suggest greater spending on the HML infrastructure, as well as the A9.

Inverness & the Highlands in general has been out on a limb for too long - I support the A9 dualling, but upgrading the HML is just as important - even some targeted smaller scale improvements would have a big impact (eg, longer 'dynamic' loops, targeted easing of speed restrictions)....Aviemore & Pitlochry is part of this, but more is needed.

I'd love to see some redoubling, but I'm not holding my breath....
 

jingsmonty

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Other than Killiecrankie Tunnel, are there any other specifics?

Not much that could be done with Killiecrankie tunnel...I'm thinking more about 'quick fixes', eg. Struan to Dalnaspidal is 60mph in down direction & 75mph in up direction...why?
 
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